Wasn't arguing with him just stating my case..
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Im lost how was Herrera poor? Played some really good balls today particularly in the first half. His lack of match fitness definitely caught up to him by the 2nd.
I'll be honest, I don't see what he contributes to a midfield that already contains Matic and Pogba.
He's an option when either of them doesn't play.
He's an option when either of them doesn't play.
This is why I said we should use Pereira in a three man midfield eventually over Herrera because he will contribute more offensively.
You think Peireira would have done more today over Herrera? Based on what?
He was ok, busied himself, but I'm not sure we needed the extra CM given how deep they played.
For what he did for a relegated Spanish side in a different league.
He should have come on for Matic, to give him a rest or Mata if he played and we were winning. They really had nobody to deal with as they targeted the wide areas. All it did was give him some minutes. He was not the reason we dropped points though.
Makes sense.
Perhaps not today but eventually yes. I think his offensive game is a lot better than Herrera's and his defensive game doesn't need to be as good as Herrera's given that Matic is there.
Today Herrera wasn't fantastic not because he's not good enough it's just down to a lack of match rhythm and because in general Stoke away is a tough fixture. I am talking about the future, where I think Pereira could be a constant in our midfield.
Possibly, he does have a few years in his favour.
Think all of the stats/rating sites have given him the worst final rating of the three just FYI.
I think Matic did his job. Pogba and Herrera both didn't pull up any trees.
This I agree with. Peirera is actually the closest player we have right now to Pogba, so I think in a couple of years he can be a really good player going forward.
Yeah we could have done that, as you say midfield was not where Stoke focused, and I agree he didn't have any impact on us losing points, that was squarely on two bad defensive errors.
Was poor , I know it's his first game this season but he didn't exactly show we would be better with him and Matic in the same team than Matic and another.
I think Herrera was unnecessary and poor against Stoke.
Maybe Jose was thinking about Basel. I would have stuck to the winning team / formation.
Maybe Jose was thinking about Basel. I would have stuck to the winning team / formation.
...and Lukaku not finishing the way a top striker should. I was not all that crazy about him. We just need to hope Rashford comes up to speed fast and we get a top striker next season.
Thought he was 'poor' as was most of the team really but I think we need to perserve with him in this midfield trio. Not every game but they should have minutes together to click as we will need it against the top sides.
They all have fantastic individual abilities and team work but none of that experience as a unit.
He will need to deffo step it up offensively as he looked a little lost positionally out there. Although saying that it could be said the same for Pogba; they both weren't sure when to be playing forward in advanced situtations or be the covering midfielder etc.
He has that first touch and little shimmy/dribble thing where he can bring others into the game and create openings but he's being very/too mindful of being defensively solid first, which obviously impacts his creativity.
I thought he was okay, but he didn't look like his natural ability fit the role he was trying to play which is unusual. He's the player in between Pogba/Matic to do all of the hustling and with the deep formation I thought he got a bit cramped during the match. Maybe he's suffering from a little lack of game time, maybe the re-shuffle didn't fit him.
Against a Stoke you might be right.
He gives me that Gattuso feel. Just not sure the team is gel enough for us to see him stand out in such a role. Or, likely, the chaotic approach to his game is of better use against tougher opponents.
agreed.
Nice and committed chap he may be but his level is just below what is required for an elite team's midfield. Else he would be in the Spain squad.
If he is prepared to play as rotational cover and start 30+ games a season, then he has a future with us. Otherwise, he'll need to drop down a level.
It was a tough chance but that's what you want from your main striker, still he's started pretty well.
Rashford also needs gain confidence to shoot.
I said this all along prior to the start of the season. In threads where people wondered who'd be our regular/every day starters, vast majority pencilled in Herrera for whatever reason. Didn't get it and voiced how it wouldn't be the case which it is now and everyone can see.
Love Herrera but the addition of Matic has made him a secondary option and expendable to an extent. And honestly he's slightly overrated on the forum imo. He's a loyal foot soldier and plays with a ton of passion and talent wise is good. Not great or average, somewhere in the middle and sometimes it leads to positive games where he shines and others not so much like today. However a perfect bench option for us tbh and is an excellent insurance policy for injuries/resting players/starting certain games aka tactical choices.
Was pointless yesterday. Didn't do anything as the spare man. Should have stuck with Mata who looked good when he came on.
Hey I'm just trying to agree even more with him
Oh is that so, carry on then my bro.. I didn't see nothing
I thought he was ok. Wasn't as bad as some are making him out to be. On hindsight, it seemed we didn't need that extra midfielder though given how Stoke defended.
Was not at his best yesterday. Needs a few more games to get going. Will ignore this performance because I know he is quite good. I just hope he is able to get back to his best and am bit worried for him because he struggles when he does not get regular starts, as seen in that second season under Van Gaal, and I am sure he won't get as many matches as last year because we have Matic now.
Jose got it wrong today with his inclusion - it just seemed to add another player in midfield against a defensive side .
Herrera looked understandably rusty and he really should be used more from the bench
it must be a shock to Herrera to fight to become our best player last season and a captain in waiting to become a squad player this year - let's hope he's reacted well as he seemed a bit phased yesterday at times
Herrera looked understandably rusty and he really should be used more from the bench
it must be a shock to Herrera to fight to become our best player last season and a captain in waiting to become a squad player this year - let's hope he's reacted well as he seemed a bit phased yesterday at times
He has played 5 minutes since the middle of August so not surprising he is rusty. I also notice that he is a slow starter, we had most of the same comments this time last season. All of a sudden it clicks with him, usually when a big game comes around. I have never seen him have a good game against Stoke, even when he has contributed an assist he has played badly against them. As I have mentioned I don't think he was needed yesterday and might have been better getting half an hour as a sub for Matic or Mata to just build his time and fitness up.
Think Herrera's a cracking player but it felt like Mourinho started him just for the sake of getting him involved again. Felt like a forced, unnecessary change to the lineup.
We're at our best when we're direct and quick to get forward, we don't need to play three centre mids to play that way.
We're at our best when we're direct and quick to get forward, we don't need to play three centre mids to play that way.
4-2-3-1 does not suit him at all when Pogba is present as the 10
He wasn't good yesterday, far from it really, but i'll save the harsh criticism for when we will actually have a plan on how to use the third midfielder effectively instead of just shoving a third body in there because the numbers don't seem to add up.
I agree with those saying that he wasn't necessary yesterday. He, and the change of formation, could have been of a certain use if we were determined to play at a higher tempo and push for the win right from the get go. Then we would have to worry about the numerical imbalance in the midfield and the proper protection of the spaces between our lines. But none of this happened, we had 60-70% possession and we liked to take our time on the ball. The difference was that we had a deeper midfielder in the place of a more creative player. We attacked with one less man than usual.
I still think he can offer a lot to this side without being the second coming of Roy Keane that some seem to believe he is. If he's given a specific defensive role, like man marking Coutinho or Hazard, he can prove to be very useful tactically. He's also a pressing machine and he's very good at collecting second balls in the attacking half. I think that alongside Matic and Pogba he could be a part of a formidable and modern midfield trident able to press in packs and help us maintain our lines relatively higher on the pitch. But we know that this won't happen.
I agree with those saying that he wasn't necessary yesterday. He, and the change of formation, could have been of a certain use if we were determined to play at a higher tempo and push for the win right from the get go. Then we would have to worry about the numerical imbalance in the midfield and the proper protection of the spaces between our lines. But none of this happened, we had 60-70% possession and we liked to take our time on the ball. The difference was that we had a deeper midfielder in the place of a more creative player. We attacked with one less man than usual.
I still think he can offer a lot to this side without being the second coming of Roy Keane that some seem to believe he is. If he's given a specific defensive role, like man marking Coutinho or Hazard, he can prove to be very useful tactically. He's also a pressing machine and he's very good at collecting second balls in the attacking half. I think that alongside Matic and Pogba he could be a part of a formidable and modern midfield trident able to press in packs and help us maintain our lines relatively higher on the pitch. But we know that this won't happen.
Squad player, that's all I see him as.
He certainly wasn't at fault for the result yesterday. Defensive errors were to blame, Jones slipped and Baily allowed his man to get a yard on him.
He certainly wasn't at fault for the result yesterday. Defensive errors were to blame, Jones slipped and Baily allowed his man to get a yard on him.
He started today only because Fellaini was injured. Even Jose said this game was perfectly made for Fellaini. He offers something different to what Pogba and Matic provide.
Absolutely....
Stoke were not defensive.
They every time they got the ball they drove hard in groups. They were not parking the bus or keeping 10 men camped in their own half.
They scored 2 goals and attacked our goal several times.
If we are going to have a good season, we will absolutely need Herrera in good form, so I'd play him regularly to get him back in form. In the business end of the season, we need all our midfielders match fit.
This is true.
This game was made for Fellaini to play in. Such a shame that the one time I desperately wanted him to play, he was injured.
He didn't play badly, he was just utterly pointless.
Stoke weren't interested in playing through the midfield, or playing centrally at all - at that point we needed more attacking players to unlock the two banks of players they had in their box.
Stoke weren't interested in playing through the midfield, or playing centrally at all - at that point we needed more attacking players to unlock the two banks of players they had in their box.
I felt they played counter attacking football and realistically it was only Shaqiri, Jese and Choupo Moting who attacked against us - their wing backs rarely came forward
I just felt in the previous games Matic and Pogba managed the game from midfield with our CBs pushed up- hindsight is a wonderful thing but Mhiki at 10 and Mata/Martial on the right might have been a better option
agree that Herrera needs games and maybe this played into José's thinking
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