3-4-3 Aint it.

The likelihood is that it won't work out under Amorim, that is the likely scenario for us with any manager, but making a judgement on a system, never mind about the manager, when we've been playing every midweek so he's had no proper time on the training ground yet and the squad is such a mess is not fair. We're playing a lot less chaotically than under Ten Hag and are more controlled, albeit we still don't actually control games at least we are trying to, but it's not working because we're currently having to put some players in positions that don't suit them which means they will need replacing while most of squad is midtable standard.

The only real complaint I would have about how we're set up currently is that it too often becomes a back 5, partially because of the personnel in the wingback and wide centre back positions, and when we have the ball at the back in can be a struggle at times for us to progress up the field.
 
Stadjer said:
We picked a manager that has always played 3-4-3. Ofcourse we are also going to play 3-4-3. We signed that manager for a reason. One of the mistakes ETH made was to move away from the main reason he was signed, he was signed to play the modern football that he played at Ajax. After DDG made a few costly mistakes he changed his idea and wanted to become the best counter attacking team. I hope Amorim sticks to his 3-4-3 but i have to admit, it is painfull right now.
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Ajax football wasn't possible with players like Bruno, Rashford as our key players. I think that's why he wanted to play transition football and got Casemiro.

Maybe if he got Frenkie that summer, and Shaw could stay fit, he would slowly phase out Rashford/Bruno but Rashford saved him in his first season.
 
I think it’ll work out, but right now feel like we don’t have enough players forward at times for the counter.
 
bosnian_red said:
It's not the formation that's the problem, as shown by even worse performances playing in a 4231
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Exactly. Whilst the results haven’t been great, we looked far worse playing under ETH in a different formation. I suspect these players will disappoint no matter the system. Ruud just happened to take over during a very forgiving run of fixtures.
 
This same sh** squad would crumble in 442 or 4231. This system just exposed their deficiencies further rather than paper over the cracks as previously done.
 
This run of bad form was always gonna happen. Amorim comes in and players start to play to impress, then when the realise they have no real future then of course they'll switch off. By the start of December all the guys Amorim decided he doesn't want have either been directly told or its been made obvious to find a new club hence the big drop off. The quicker those players are gone the quicker form will pick up
 
We aren’t doing this again. No more of these stages of execution. This current period has proven that it’s the players who are the main problem.

I’ve actually enjoyed how many options there are in attack, the inside runs, the flexibility and the control - it’s the players who can’t execute the necessary final touches or balls.

Stick with the guy ffs.
 
3-4-3 is not the reason Onana can't deal with crosses into his box.

3-4-3 is not the reason we can't defend set pieces.

3-4-3 is not the reason Bruno can't control a 5 yard pass and ends up picking up a stupid 2nd yellow card.

3-4-3 is not the reason Hojlund can't hold the ball up or bring teammates into the game, or can't get his arse onto the end of crosses.

3-4-3 is not the reason Mazraoui gives away a stupid penalty when we're already 1 down v Bournemouth (from a set piece).

3-4-3 is not the reason for all the individual errors and poor play these players make each and every game.

If Amorim ditches 3-4-3 because he thinks it'll help him scrape a few extra wins here and there and keep the wolves from the door (no pun intended), then he's f**ked.
 
Oscar Bonavena said:
3-4-3 is not the reason Onana can't deal with crosses into his box.

3-4-3 is not the reason we can't defend set pieces.

3-4-3 is not the reason Bruno can't control a 5 yard pass and ends up picking up a stupid 2nd yellow card.

3-4-3 is not the reason Hojlund can't hold the ball up or bring teammates into the game, or can't get his arse onto the end of crosses.

3-4-3 is not the reason Mazraoui gives away a stupid penalty when we're already 1 down v Bournemouth (from a set piece).

3-4-3 is not the reason for all the individual errors and poor play these players make each and every game.

If Amorim ditches 3-4-3 because he thinks it'll help him scrape a few extra wins here and there and keep the wolves from the door (no pun intended), then he's f**ked.
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What is the reason we created nothing apart from Dalot's long range effort?
 
I think it’s clear that this squad doesn’t currently suit the formation. However if we really don’t want to back Amorim and CB is system then we should just sack him now. Asking him to change it to a 4-2-3-1 is just a nonsense as it’s not his system, his style, his ideas etc. My hope is that with some smart January recruitment (it doesn’t need to be top class expensive players) we will see better suited players in more familiar roles and see a large uptick in form. Even just a couple of natural wingbacks would make a massive difference.
 
We didn't lose today due to the formation. Bruno and Onana made us lose today.

Having players so lacking confidence that they don't take on 1 on 1s is the main thing going forward. What's the point of generating an advantageous position if Dalot just rolls it back, or players wait for defenders to get set.
 
I disagree if we use a winger as 1 of the wing-backs.

If we're using 2 defenders as wing-backs, then I think that's problematic(unless the defenders are extremely dynamic going forward and we don't have any at the moment).

People are too fixated on formations. Football is way more fluid than that.

All of our defeats lately have been self-inflicted. Nothing to do with the formation.
 
Amorim made his name and has made a career out of his management skills, more specifically, his tactics and system is where he has found the success he has seen today. We knew this and hired him because of this.. Our players weren't suited for his system before hand as they also weren't suitable for many others (it seems). To ask him to change his whole system that has served him well because our supporters can't handle going through rough periods (Which we have been warned about on numerous occasions by Amorim).
Personally I am fed up of going through this constant cycle of managers coming in, players can't adapt or aren't good enough for what is being asked of them and the manager is then sacked and it's on to the next one. I think that Amorim is the right man to bring us back to where we belong and now the onus needs to be on the players.. They need to step up and do their jobs or simply leave and be replaced by a player that can and will do what is needed.

Amorim needs time and patience from us fans.
 
Mike Smalling said:
What was the reason, when the same was happening under ETH?

We have shit forwards, average midfielders and our fullbacks/wingbacks do not provide any threat.
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I had difficulty understanding why we didn’t get a quality striker in the summer. We had problems taking our chances under ten Hag as well.

The sad part is that we do need more than one player to fix this mess. We need multiple players to leave and at least five new players in imo.
 
Half the players on the pitch are hardly even playing a different role. GK, two CMs, 10, striker are basically doing the exact same ask.

The 3 at the back have been mostly fine apart from set pieces.

We basically have a wing back issue which once resolved will solve a lot. There's no getting around the quality issue for the rest who are doing the same ask as before and failing just like before.
 
Was never ever in favour of it, and was the reason I was luke warm on Amorim when the rumours broke.

We’re now trying to fix our goalscoring problems by playing 5 defenders.
 
We struggled for goals all last season, things were clearly not right in that department. So we decided to sell Martial and replace him with a raw kid who was hardly prolific at his previous club. Leaving us with two raw kids as our main striker options, only backed by Rashford who is a very out of sorts left winger. Piss poor management. Its on ineos and its team.
Im sure Amourin will turn it around. It will take a new LWB and a new top striker o start. . Maybe a couple more next summer, the team is not full of bad players. Just a 3-4 not suitable or not good enough.
The core is sound but needs tweeking to his system that was so completely successful at Sporting.
 
I'm sorry but.. for the people calling for us to play 433/4231. What player played consistently well the past year or year and a half with that formation and system?


Onana - been way too inconsistent.

Maguire - same, almost got sold because he couldn't play in a 4 backline.

Licha - inconsistent, specially after his injury.

Dalot - one good season, but what we're seeing from him now has been the norm for 90% of his time with us.

Malacia - just bad either way.

Shaw - constantly injured, so count him out.

Casemiro - was struggling playing in that system.

Mainoo - played well in that system (so 1 player so far)

Eriksen - struggling and finished physically.

Bruno - played his worse football lately in that system, if anything played better for Amorim(besides today's match) but he also seems to be in downward trajectory in his career might be time to move him on.

Mount - constantly injured, count him out.

Garnacho - had a decent last season, but also inconsistent. Still young. (So 2ish players)

Rashford - don't make me laugh.

Højlund - bad no matter the system it seems.

Anyone I'm forgetting(I'm not counting DeLigt, Ugarte or Mazraoui becuase they are new, also leaving Zirkzee out on purpose, because he fits in a system thats not in MU i.e get rid)?

My point is, what makes you think it will be better if we revert back to 433/4231 when the players where equally shit or mostly worse in that system? I genuinely dont get it.

The system isn't the problem, most of the players are.
 
At a big club any 3 at the back formation should end with the shape. Actually playing three center backs and 2 fullbacks is criminal.

A back 3 of Shaw - De Ligt - Mazraoui.is an entirely different prospect from a 3 of Martinez - Maguire - Yoro. 7 defensive players is overkill.
 
JBG said:
I'm sorry but.. for the people calling for us to play 433/4231. What player played consistently well the past year or year and a half with that formation and system?


Onana - been way too inconsistent.

Maguire - same, almost got sold because he couldn't play in a 4 backline.

Licha - inconsistent, specially after his injury.

Dalot - one good season, but what we're seeing from him now has been the norm for 90% of his time with us.

Malacia - just bad either way.

Shaw - constantly injured, so count him out.

Casemiro - was struggling playing in that system.

Mainoo - played well in that system (so 1 player so far)

Eriksen - struggling and finished physically.

Bruno - played his worse football lately in that system, if anything played better for Amorim(besides today's match) but he also seems to be in downward trajectory in his career might be time to move him on.

Mount - constantly injured, count him out.

Garnacho - had a decent last season, but also inconsistent. Still young. (So 2ish players)

Rashford - don't make me laugh.

Højlund - bad no matter the system it seems.

Anyone I'm forgetting(I'm not counting DeLigt, Ugarte or Mazraoui becuase they are new, also leaving Zirkzee out on purpose, because he fits in a system thats not in MU i.e get rid)?

My point is, what makes you think it will be better if we revert back to 433/4231 when the players where equally shit or mostly worse in that system? I genuinely dont get it.

The system isn't the problem, most of the players are.
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This 100%
 
Doesn't make sense to question the formation when the issues would be present in other formations as well. There aren't many teams out there affording themselves fullbacks who offer next to nothing in attack. Who attempt to play a weak AM in midfield. Wingers who are mostly unable to beat a man.
 
Like has been said earlier it's not the 343 but who is in the 343. Maz and Dalot in those two WB slots offer no threat whatsoever. The other team know that and can happily leave themselves 1v1 on them without risk. This allows them to deploy their players more aggressively making it harder for the rest of our team.

It's a cats cradle of interconnected strands of wool. Ultimately we fix our WBs and our 10s will have more space and more chances of interplay, and our CF should get more room and more service. Having an actual attacking threat would also reduce the stress on the defence.

Here's hoping for a late Christmas present early in january
 
I feel a change of formation could work without compromising on the system of play. The system of play doesn't have to change with a change of formation. Amorim seems to be trying to add more control by wanting to control the possession of the ball but the midfield just doesn't have the capability to progress the ball effectively at a high enough level and hence we're easily cancelled out in midfield which places extra burden on the backline to progress the ball.

I think if he changed formation to a more traditional back 4 and tried implementing the same approach as the one he's currently trying with the back 3, where we look to dominate the ball. It would suit our wide players (fullbacks & wingers). The midfield would still be weak as far as progressing the ball centrally goes but it would open up more possibilities for the backline to thread the lines with the likes of Garnacho and Amad as wide forwards and Bruno centrally.

Most of the high caliber teams in Europe play with a back 4 whilst demonstrating a high level of pro-activeness. Going back to a more traditional formation doesn't mean you change the system of play. The system can stay the same as far as how you want to implement the plan as a coach. But if he did switch it up, then it would be good to see imo because being adaptable as a coach is a very good trait to have. And you wouldn't have to change the system/approach.
 
RedDevilCanuck said:
Needs too many specific skill sets. does Amorim have an alternative? He needs to start winning games and perhaps deviating from his plan.

I'm not saying sack Amorim, I'm saying he needs try something else. Bringing in 10 new players isn't going to happen.
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Hear the man when he says he will not change his ways. And I agree with him - he should not. He was very clear about who he was when INEOS hired him and about his intentions to not adapt. It is on INEOS to support him with 10 or however many players he will need and to own the responsibility behind huge decision of dramatically changing our system and formation by hiring Amorim.

The real worry is not how many players this mess needs to fix, that can be addressed with money and skillful recruitement in cheaper markets. The real worry is if 3-4-3 can be winning system in EPL because there is currently no evidence to support such hypothesis and none of the top teams use it
 
Who would believe that adding a layer of Eredivisie to a bunch of serial losers who had sacked more managers then won top trophies wouldn't work
 
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