3-4-3 Aint it.

evil_geko said:
People think this is FIFA where everything depends on a formation ffs. :lol:

3-4-3 is fine.
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It's the search for simple solutions to a complex problem. 2 months ago the same folks were saying a better coach could do what ETH couldn't and get these players well, now that hasn't worked out a formation change is what's required.

We have a weak squad full of players that push either the physicality, the concentration, or the ability required to play any kind of front foot football, until that's fixed there aren't any simple fixes.
 
sammyhol said:
I’m not against this…

But please (everyone!!!). STOP SAYING WE WERE CRAP IN A 4231!!!

ETH only played it in his first season. We were mainly great. Anyone who is saying he played the same system in the subsequent seasons is absolutely mad…. It was 100% different!

Ruud brought it back. We were great!!!

Ruben had scrapped it again. We look crap. Stop rewriting history!
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What was formation was ETH playing in season 2 and 3 because it sure looked like a 4-2-3-1 to me, albeit a very chaotic one with the stupid inverted full backs.

We were not great with Ruud, we were ok
 
Eugenius said:
It's not like Ruud is a tactical genius, but basically he added a bit of stodge in midfield, put square pegs in round holes and an arm around a shoulder and got a bounce out of the team.
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It probably only served to give us a false idea of the potential of the team, that with a "quality" manager could only improve.

Should have known that was optimistic.
 
Way too early to say, and it's pretty much how we set up under ten Hag on the ball anyway. Just a few alterations. He used to typically set up:

Hojlund
Garnacho Bruno Rashford
Mainoo Casemiro
Dalot Martinez De Ligt Mazraoui
Onana

On the ball:

Hojlund
Garnacho Mainoo Bruno Rashford
Dalot Casemiro
Martinez De Ligt Mazraoui
Onana​

There's obviously a few things players will have to adapt to under Amorim, but building with a back three is pretty much something most teams do now. Our problem, and has been for a while now, is not having anyone in our final third who is going to create special moments during the game. Dare I say Cunha was that player for Wolves today, scoring (a bit of luck) and assisting. We've had Amad who has been a breath of fresh air over the last few weeks, but he shouldn't be relied on every week to produce. We should have 3 or 4 attacking players that strike fear into the opponent. At the moment, I don't think we have any.
 
I have to agree with you. This is a horrible system for who we have available.

With Rashford, Shaw and Mount being what seems to be permanently unavailable I just don’t see how we can manage. Especially if Garnacho doesn’t fit the current system. We are just hurting ourselves.

He either needs to switch it up or go into the youth team and bring players who actually fit this style because running this same formation with players that don’t fit is killing is. I’d prefer to go full Barcelona and just play teenagers instead of some of these players.
 
Give it time. The manager has had success with this and has made it, v v v clear, that this is his preference. To be honest, with the players we have, it will not make any difference.
 
The Hilton said:
It's the search for simple solutions to a complex problem. 2 months ago the same folks were saying a better coach could do what ETH couldn't and get these players well, now that hasn't worked out a formation change is what's required.

We have a weak squad full of players that push either the physicality, the concentration, or the ability required to play any kind of front foot football, until that's fixed there aren't any simple fixes.
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No, the search for simple answers is exactly what you and many other posters are doing by saying that the players are so bad that Amorim can’t possibly get them playing any better than this. It’s obviously horseshit and extremely unconstructive, yet here you are feeling superior.
 
Need to stop the short-termism. If we constantly keep reverting back to the mean to accommodate shite players and scrape an 6th place we won’t get anywhere.
 
Our attack is staggeringly bad. No matter the formation. Before the season started anyone with sense knew we'd struggle to score, that's still the case and will remain so.
 
My main concern isn't actually that it doesn't suit our current players, because these players are shit and need replacing anyway, no matter what formation we play.

It's that the vast majority of the best teams in the world play 4 at the back. Back 3 may be a niche system for a reason, it may not be optimal if you want to be winning the PL and CL.


Ultimately, the people who wanted to keep ETH in the summer created this mess. Amorim should have had a pre-season to coach his system, and money to spend on players who could make his system work.
 
I’m not even reading the replies, the formation is fine, the players especially down the left hand side are terrible.
 
He can bring in 10 players. They all just don't have to be £50 million players. They just need to be players who know what the feck a football is

He has also said it's not a case of the formation but how to play. And has also said they haven't even really trained, they are just learning in game and from reviews
 
Jev said:
No, the search for simple solutions is exactly what you and many other posters are doing by saying that the players are so bad that Amorim can’t possibly get them playing any better than this. It’s obviously horseshit and extremely unconstructive, yet here you are feeling superior.
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Adding in that by his own admission, the squad aren’t even training with RA and haven’t been in December due to the number of matches and schedule…how can he implement his true tactics/style until the team have at least a month of training. Maybe by the end of January it will look like his full stamp has been made in terms of patterns etc
 
Jev said:
No, the search for simple solutions is exactly what you and many other posters are doing by saying that the players are so bad that Amorim can’t possibly get them playing any better than this. It’s obviously horseshit and extremely unhelpful, yet here you are feeling superior.
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The players aren't good enough for a proactive style of football, they panic on the ball and the decision making is poor throughout the squad. None of that will change just by going until the pause menu to change formation.
 
Blaming systems is a nonsense. These players have hid behind excuses for a long time. Most aren’t very good which is the long and short of it.

Issue I have is will the higher ups get on Amorims back when we inevitably lose the next three against Newcastle, Liverpool and Arsenal will they still support him.
 
madzo2007 said:
What was formation was ETH playing in season 2 and 3 because it sure looked like a 4-2-3-1 to me, albeit a very chaotic one with the stupid inverted full backs.

We were not great with Ruud, we were ok
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4141

We never had 2 in midfield. It was provided by an inverting FB, usually Dalot.

All width was then provided by wide attackers, playing high and wide with back to goal rather than running on to it… hence why rashford went from 30 goals to crap.

Bruno’s free role and space was inhibited by another attacking CM which also negatively impacted him.

And all our central defensive players in midfield and defence went from looking very solid and composed in a compact, mid block, to having their lack of athleticism completely exposed in an open system.

Those two systems could not have been more different. Anyone who says otherwise needs their eyes testing.

As for the 4231 system being “ok” for Ruud….

4 games. 3 wins. 1 draw. 11 goals scored. 3 conceded .

Or to put it another way…. Miles better than what we are seeing now.
 
madzo2007 said:
What was formation was ETH playing in season 2 and 3 because it sure looked like a 4-2-3-1 to me, albeit a very chaotic one with the stupid inverted full backs.

We were not great with Ruud, we were ok
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It looked like a dislodged 4-1-4-1 system.

The dearth in that Wolves opening game of the season between the midfield and Mount / Bruno was absolutely shocking.

What ETH was doing was suicide, I don't even see sense in trying to rationalize it to comprehend the man's madness.

I actually can see success with the system Amorim is trying to implement but it's like having size 10 feet squeezed into size 6 trainers, it's the wrong profile of players for the demands at hand.
 
The only thing I cant understand is why doesnt he play Amad and Dallo the other way around. They can bomb down the pitch and put crosses in. As it is they get the ball and have to stop and cut inside, or pass back mainly.
 
We are making the exact same mistake we made with Ten Hag - empowering a manager to stick relentlessly to a system without having the players to actually make it work.

That’s fine in a low pressure environment but the poor results are further crippling the players mentality and morale and amping up the pressure every single week, meanwhile we tumble down the table and lose any hope of getting into Europe thus making signing the right players even harder.

I said it months ago - pragmatism is what we need right now. Steady the ship while we sort the squad out.

I like Amorim but if he is as smart as he seems and as results driven as he says he has to realise this at some point otherwise he will be yet another manager spat out by this meat grinder of a club.

I also can’t help but thinking that despite the new people in charge this club still doesn’t have a clue what it’s doing… yes they recognised Amorim is a high quality coach and went for him but do they really think 343 is the system we need to implement for the next however many years? Did they even consider how difficult it would be to shift to this system without the right players and midway through the season?

Its absurd that anyone questioning the use of the system right now gets shot down… whether right or wrong (I’m still on the fence) it is 100% a valid point of discussion.
 
Redstain said:
It looked like a dislodged 4-1-4-1 system.

The dearth in that Wolves opening game of the season between the midfield and Mount / Bruno was absolutely shocking.

What ETH was doing was suicide, I don't even see sense in trying to rationalize it to comprehend the man's madness.

I actually can see success with the system Amorim is trying to implement but it's like having size 10 feet squeezed into size 6 trainers, it's the wrong profile of players for the demands at hand.
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Apologies, I remember now. You're right. It was even a 4-2-4 at times.
 
Redstain said:
It looked like a dislodged 4-1-4-1 system.

The dearth in that Wolves opening game of the season between the midfield and Mount / Bruno was absolutely shocking.

What ETH was doing was suicide, I don't even see sense in trying to rationalize it to comprehend the man's madness.

I actually can see success with the system Amorim is trying to implement but it's like having size 10 feet squeezed into size 6 trainers, it's the wrong profile of players for the demands at hand.
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It’s so straightforward isn’t it… it seems blindingly obvious.

My daft athletics analogy would be ETH was so mad he tried to convert his somewhat successful track middle distance running squad to be elite swimmers.

Ruben has at least got them back to track and field, but he told them all that they are now sprinters.

Just let them do what they are good at!! We need a whole new squad to play this style of football.
 
I like the three at the back, but I can't help feel the rest of it doesn't support goals and chances. I wonder if 2 up top would help, just for immediate numbers up the pitch, 3142?
 
Dominos said:
My main concern isn't actually that it doesn't suit our current players, because these players are shit and need replacing anyway, no matter what formation we play.

It's that the vast majority of the best teams in the world play 4 at the back. Back 3 may be a niche system for a reason, it may not be optimal if you want to be winning the PL and CL.


Ultimately, the people who wanted to keep ETH in the summer created this mess. Amorim should have had a pre-season to coach his system, and money to spend on players who could make his system work.
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Leverkusen and Inter are two teams that are having good success with 3 at the back. Let's hope Amorim is backed with transfers to make it work.
 
sugar_kane said:
We are making the exact same mistake we made with Ten Hag - empowering a manager to stick relentlessly to a system without having the players to actually make it work.

That’s fine in a low pressure environment but the poor results are further crippling the players mentality and morale and amping up the pressure every single week, meanwhile we tumble down the table and lose any hope of getting into Europe thus making signing the right players even harder.

I said it months ago - pragmatism is what we need right now. Steady the ship while we sort the squad out.

I like Amorim but if he is as smart as he seems and as results driven as he says he has to realise this at some point otherwise he will be yet another manager spat out by this meat grinder of a club.

I also can’t help but thinking that despite the new people in charge this club still doesn’t have a clue what it’s doing… yes they recognised Amorim is a high quality coach and went for him but do they really think 343 is the system we need to implement for the next however many years? Did they even consider how difficult it would be to shift to this system without the right players and midway through the season?

Its absurd that anyone questioning the use of the system right now gets shot down… whether right or wrong (I’m still on the fence) it is 100% a valid point of discussion.
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Exactly, I believe Amorim needed a better, more enthusiastic environment to work with and implement his new(to us) ideas. For that reason a more simplistic manager approach(eg. Ole period) would of been a better solution to steady the ship and get some results in and morale up.
By shaking things so brutally, I'm afraid Mr. Amorim might never get a proper chance to work with desired players and get his transfers in. Imagine having the same results until the end of season, who would spend 200 mil to transfer the players he wants? Would anyone trust him with this?
So, for results to improve, I believe the manager must adapt to what we have, because the other way around is not possible.
 
We picked a manager that has always played 3-4-3. Ofcourse we are also going to play 3-4-3. We signed that manager for a reason. One of the mistakes ETH made was to move away from the main reason he was signed, he was signed to play the modern football that he played at Ajax. After DDG made a few costly mistakes he changed his idea and wanted to become the best counter attacking team. I hope Amorim sticks to his 3-4-3 but i have to admit, it is painfull right now.
 
3-4-3 is not it when you rely on the width provided by the two wing backs who offer nothing going forwards, and a front 3 totally lacking in goals or creativity.
 
What's the alternative? 4231 was a disaster and a 433 would probably not be any better. The football has definitely improved than under ETH and is being undone by individual mistakes and, let's face it, a team with about as much fight as a pacifist in a boxing ring.

Amorim doesn't want to short term it and abandon what he was brought in to do and i agree with that. He's finding out who can or can't (most of them the latter) can't do it and with any luck will be moving these championship level passengers on.

With any luck, a LWB is brought in over January as a minimum, hopefully a striker as well but I feel that's a stretch. If SJR is as ruthless with the playing squad as he has been with the tea ladies, stewards and toilet cleaners, hopefully a good chunk of this squad are shifted on very soon.
 
Oo0AahCantona said:
Need to stop the short-termism. If we constantly keep reverting back to the mean to accommodate shite players and scrape an 6th place we won’t get anywhere.
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What if 343 only achieves a top 4 finish?

Remember 4231 also achieved top 4 finishes.

In short, we are going 343 to take us to where we used to be in 2021 a top 3 team in the league
 
It doesn't matter what system this lot play in, its the same result.

Let Amorim find out who deserves a place and who doesn't so he can bring the right players in this summer.

He literally told you it is worth the pain this season so we arn't in the same position this time next. Did everyone just ignore him?
 
sugar_kane said:
We are making the exact same mistake we made with Ten Hag - empowering a manager to stick relentlessly to a system without having the players to actually make it work.

That’s fine in a low pressure environment but the poor results are further crippling the players mentality and morale and amping up the pressure every single week, meanwhile we tumble down the table and lose any hope of getting into Europe thus making signing the right players even harder.

I said it months ago - pragmatism is what we need right now. Steady the ship while we sort the squad out.

I like Amorim but if he is as smart as he seems and as results driven as he says he has to realise this at some point otherwise he will be yet another manager spat out by this meat grinder of a club.

I also can’t help but thinking that despite the new people in charge this club still doesn’t have a clue what it’s doing… yes they recognised Amorim is a high quality coach and went for him but do they really think 343 is the system we need to implement for the next however many years? Did they even consider how difficult it would be to shift to this system without the right players and midway through the season?

Its absurd that anyone questioning the use of the system right now gets shot down… whether right or wrong (I’m still on the fence) it is 100% a valid point of discussion.
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We’ve had years and years of pragmatism and we go just round in a big circle. It’s the same result just a slow and painful one.

For years we have needed this, someone to try and change everything, the way we play with the ball, the way we play without it, the qualities we look for in players, the intensity etc etc.

The formation is a minor issue and we’ve been shit with other formations as well, our problems are much deeper. I said years ago after Jose we need someone with the balls to start from scratch, it’s very likely that person fails because it’s such a big job but it’s the only way forward. If Amorim crashes and burns the next guy picks up the baton, we can’t have all this muddling through, pragmatism and placating players to try and paper over the cracks. Expose them and try and fix them properly for a change.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
100% this, if he’s gonna get it to work, he’ll have to be much braver.
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Does seem like Amad is our only proper threat at wingback, so apart from a tough game away where we basically are fine being 5 at the back, it should be him at RWB and then hopefully a new LWB comes in a week from now. We at least have some young guys we need to see as a #10 like Garnacho and Zirkzee or I'm not sure what their future is here.
 
The Hilton said:
It's the search for simple solutions to a complex problem. 2 months ago the same folks were saying a better coach could do what ETH couldn't and get these players well, now that hasn't worked out a formation change is what's required.

We have a weak squad full of players that push either the physicality, the concentration, or the ability required to play any kind of front foot football, until that's fixed there aren't any simple fixes.
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A lot of people could see that Ten Hag and co had utterly fecked us with his squad composition and disregard for getting players with the right athletic profile.

The absurdity of him not being sacked after the FA Cup still rankles.
 
I do think that the system lacks any width as the two behind the striker are meant to be 10’s with the wing backs providing the width but a left hand side of Dalot and Fernandes lacks any pace, width and power as both have to cut back with a flat pass as neither can beat a man.

The obvious example of a 3-4-3 working is Chelsea under Conte but the difference was Conte had wingers in Hazard, Pedro and Willian and a wide playmaker in Oscar whilst they had a winger on one side as a wing back in Moses and a proper wing back on the left in Alonso.

We’re playing a right back at left wing back, a right back at right wing back and a central 10 with zero pace and who has a problem with sticking up top so drifts deep into midfield and takes the ball off the central midfielders leaving us in a positional mess to a left sided 10 role.

It’s clear that going from todays game alone Onana, Dalot and Fernandes can NOT play in an Amorim team with a 3-4-3 and then there’s Rashford, Garnacho, Antony and Zirkzee who also don’t look like they fit through either a horrible attitude or simply not being good enough and that’s before I mention Shaw, Malacia and Mount who are all permanently injured.

We NEED two left wing backs if Amass isn’t ready, a right wing back, a Carrick type midfielder, at least one attacking midfielder/winger and an established striker who will press hard from the front and score goals so at least 6 players in but the problem is our PSR/FFP is meant to be borderline.

In a 3-4-3 I think Mazraoui is best at right sided centre back so that position is fine with Mazraoui and Yoro, the central of the three is fine with De Ligt and Maguire, the left sided centre back role could be improved on but if Shaw can stay semi fit then he can be back up to Martinez until Kukonki is ready.

Dalot is at best a back up right wing back, in the middle we’ve got Ugarte and Mainoo but Casemiro and Eriksen will both be gone in the summer, Diallo staying is a must whilst Hojlund is good as a back up striker so I’d keep Mazraoui, Yoro, De Ligt, Maguire, Martinez, Shaw, Dalot, Amass, Mainoo, Ugarte, Diallo and Hojlund but the rest I’d happily move on and bring in players to play the system.
 
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