3-4-3 Aint it.

Nothing to do with the formation. We were playing terribly under Ten Hag using 4-2-3-1. The players just aren't playing well enough.

It also doesn't help that we don't have any threat on the left. Dalot can't play LWB and it kills any attack going down that wing.
 
RedDevilCanuck said:
Needs too many specific skill sets. does Amorim have an alternative? He needs to start winning games and perhaps deviating from his plan.

I'm not saying sack Amorim, I'm saying he needs try something else. Bringing in 10 new players isn't going to happen.
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6.5 weeks, a game every 3 days, the shape is there. Patterns are getting there. Conceded goals so far have mostly been set pieces and individual errors, things that cannot be coached. Judge him and his system in the Summer.
 
Jev said:
The amount of posters pointing to us being equally shit under ETH in defence of Amorim is … telling. We’re supposed to get better, aren’t we?
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So if we're not better after a month we should just bin it all and start fresh? How many successful teams/managers have you seen at this level that works like that? Or even unsuccessful ones?
 
Feck all to do with formation. Its the absolute pile of cow dung of a squad that is the problem.
 
evil_geko said:
What would actually be insane is bringing a coach with certain style and not supporting him in it.
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Would actually be insane seeing that kind of approach fail with Van gaal and Ten hag fail, then magically think it's going to work because its Amorim. We do not have the structure nor the money to support a coach with a fixed style. We will spend and other three years hoping that with a change of players he can implement his system then rinse repeat. Hoping that in the next 3 years we do not get relegated as the level of players coming in is deteriorating drastically.
 
Stinkypete said:
6.5 weeks, a game every 3 days, the shape is there. Patterns are getting there. Conceded goals so far have mostly been set pieces and individual errors, things that cannot be coached. Judge him and his system in the Summer.
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With all the new chances we create, which we were not prior, come down to a lack of a player capable of putting them into the net. This formation is creating chances we just don’t have anyone at the moment that can put the away. We are 1 capable striker away from massively improving that aspect. Our current ones are championship level at best.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
Ruud knew what to do with this lot and that was to simplify the feck out of it.
The new fella is trying to reinvent the wheel with 5 defenders, 2 sitting midfielders and a none creative striker. It’s as though he expects Bruno and Amad to be superhuman.
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10000%. I can’t get my head around all posts saying it’s players not systems.

It’s both!!!! Ultimately… this all sits with ETH.

He cracked it (by accident). We were good… great first season. The system suited the team. We all could see what we needed. A partner for Cas with legs. Simple as that. Didn’t need to press like mad men. Didn’t need to invert fbs. Our wide attackers are all miles better on the counter anyway (30 goal rashford anyone?!?). Our defensive players are much better in a congested mid block… not open space.

But for some reason he bought Mount instead; went 4141, nullified all our attacking qualities, and exposed all our defenders.

We sack him…. Ruud goes back to what worked… he even had the Cas partner we originally needed in Ugarte. And we play great for 4 or 5 games… then we rip it up again!!

It’s like de ja vu. Don’t fix what isn’t broken!
 
Zlaatan said:
So if we're not better after a month we should just bin it all and start fresh? How many successful teams/managers have you seen at this level that works like that? Or even unsuccessful ones?
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He should adapt to his squad is all I’m saying. Everyone can see that this formation is not getting the best out of the players. No reason to be stupidly stubborn. He can get his ideas across in a 4-defender system. A coach who’s only capable of playing one formation is not a good coach.
 
It’s not the tactics. The problem is the inferior quality of the players.

Not to go one by one, but I really can’t see any top 10 PL club going in for any one of our players and plugging them straight into their starting XI. Maybe there’s one club in 9th or 10th who might go in for one of our players but that’s it.
 
lex talionis said:
It’s not the tactics. The problem is the inferior quality of the players.

Not to go one by one, but I really can’t see any top 10 PL club going in for any one of our players and plugging them straight into their starting XI. Maybe there’s one club in 9th or 10th who might go in for one of our players but that’s it.
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Take them maybe but definitely not start any of them on current form
 
RoadtoMoscow2008 said:
Would actually be insane seeing that kind of approach fail with Van gaal and Ten hag fail, then magically think it's going to work because its Amorim. We do not have the structure nor the money to support a coach with a fixed style. We will spend and other three years hoping that with a change of players he can implement his system then rinse repeat. Hoping that in the next 3 years we do not get relegated as the level of players coming in is deteriorating drastically.
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That’s the key thing you’ve said in your last point. Whereas when we’ve been shite in the last ten years we’ve managed to still bring in a Cavani etc, we have no hope of bringing anyone in of that quality and the younger players we bring in seem to be dreadful.
 
RedDevil [NC] said:
With all the new chances we create, which we were not prior, come down to a lack of a player capable of putting them into the net. This formation is creating chances we just don’t have anyone at the moment that can put the away. We are 1 capable striker away from massively improving that aspect. Our current ones are championship level at best.
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I wouldn't go as far as championship level but honestly if you judge our team based on current not reputational ability, I would say our best couple of players mid table at best the rest are relegation fighters surrounded by young players that could possibly and that's the issue. Our transfer window arrogantly raised the floor when we needed ceiling level raisers. We will end up the way of Villa back when they were full of youth and prem experienced players, and falling down the table drastically, Unless the club act decisively in this window.
 
Chelsea have made 3-4-3 work in this league. You just need a very solid midfield 2, along with some athletic CBs.

That means you can brave with the selection of attackers you have up front, and the wing backs. Our midfield 2 is too porous because we're playing Mainoo or Bruno with Ugarte. Pair Ugarte with Casemiro and then you can push all the attacker's further forward.

Like every formation it has its positives and negatives. You need to willing to give up space and attacks down your channels with this formation, but back yourself that you'll win enough of the contests 1v1 down the channels or hold them up until you've got numbers back
 
One of two things has to happen for us to start being significantly better: Wilcox and Berrada have a buster January and buy players Amorim can use in his system or the system has to be changed. This system with these players just isn't going to work.
 
Yeah. Sack the formation. Let’s put them in a formation they’re more suited to…and still did utterly shite with last season.

Fantastic plan.

These. Players. Aren’t. Good. Enough.

How many managers will we plough through before this is an accepted train of thought?
 
Adisa said:
What system suits these players?
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I guess it's not a return to a particular system they're shouting about, but a return to certain "norms". Bruno as a free roaming #10 with two midfielders behind him for cover and the rest upfront trying to adjust to him. Same old, same old...

Otherwise, the issues are pretty much the same: You can argue that we don't have WBs to stretch the pitch and provide creativity in the wide areas in the 343, but we don't have wingers to do that in a 4231 either. You can also argue that we don't have the #10s to receive the ball on the half-turn between the lines to make Amorim's system work, but the synergies weren't there under different managers too for the very same reasons. And it goes on and on.

What has changed is the new guy's persistence not to return to the "norm" because he believes his system will pay dividends in the near future and will be able to take us further than the tried formula.

Anyway, i have faith in him, but he needs to work around some of the problems, at least until next summer. For example, the three "pure" centre-halves plus Ugarte in front of them is overkill. I haven't watched SCP, but my guess would be that, there, at least one of the three was able to step into the midfield during the build-up. It also doesn't mean that Ugarte is a bad player, but... the whole thing is just too much. And it becomes even worse with his WBs of choice. Perhaps, he's seen us under ETH and came here with the though to play it safe at first, make the team more compact, and move forward. But it's not working for him.

And truth be told, when the system depends on the likes of Dalot and Mazraui seeing so much of the ball (especially the former), you're asking for trouble. OK, Rashford is lazy. Try Garnacho on the left wing. Also, Amad playing in the hole is the right idea, but it's coming much too soon. Take some risks, see what happens. Eriksen, though his legs are gone, is the only midfielder you have who has an understanding of what tempo is in football. Things like that.

Right now, he gives out the impression that he doesn't want what happened to Solskjaer and ETH happening to him. But "finding the right balance" at this level of football isn't about steadying the ship. It's about making it work by playing as many good on the ball players as possible. It's not your team, that's fine. But take a risk or two, show me that the intent is there and i'll believe in the system.
 
Gk not good enough, Strikers not good CM not good enough. I'm not to disappointed with the Wolves result because Utd were never allowed to get a result from get go Ref made sure of that.
 
I've never been a fan of the formation but seems to me that a manager should come in an assess what they have and play to their 'strengths' instead of having a system you use no matter what.

United need to be much harder to beat and be better drilled. Adding instructions and formations players aren't comfortable with to adjust to in the middle of a season is IMO a poor choice.
 
Camy89 said:
Yeah. Sack the formation. Let’s put them in a formation they’re more suited to…and still did utterly shite with last season.

Fantastic plan.

These. Players. Aren’t. Good. Enough.

How many managers will we plough through before this is an accepted train of thought?
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For people using every excuse for this season, they're ignoring the mad injury problems we had last year.
Shaw and Mount's continuing saga aside we actually have the full squad this season. I don't even want to think about what would happen if we have 4 or 5 injuries.
 
My issue with 3 at the back is were still bleeding goals, and they are completely useless in attack. We could have another man in midfield or up front (arguably they would be equally as useless the way we are playing). I hate 3 at the back and will always hate it, but lets judge Amorim when at the very least he can get 2 wingbacks in, if not more players to fit his tactics.
 
#07 said:
One of two things has to happen for us to start being significantly better: Wilcox and Berrada have a buster January and buy players Amorim can use in his system or the system has to be changed. This system with these players just isn't going to work.
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Yup. He needs the pragmatism of ETHs first season. Get us up the table playing to the strengths of the squad….

But then needs a slower transition than what ETH tried to do in his first summer when he went full system change in one window. Slow transition is the route to go here.

How many players do we need for this system realistically?… for me just including starters it’s:

LCB
LWB
CM
L10
ST

I’d argue that we don’t even have a great central CB option.

There is no way we can hope to achieve that in 1 window… probs not even in 2.
 
Our squad is generally not good enough. However if you picked any top level coach at random and told them to finish as high in the league as possible with the current squad, none of them are picking 3-4-3.
None of full backs we have are suited to a wing back, and they are the attacking out balls in the formation.
Aside from Amad & Mount, none of our attackers suit the wide #10 position.
I thought Höjlund would look better with the #10s closer to him, but we still the players and the patterns to get service into the box.
I get the point that we want more control and better build up than under ETH (and there are some greenshoots) , however if Amorim can only do that with one specific formation either 1) he is ahead of the game and every time will be playing 343 in a few years or 2) he's limited as a coach.

I'm hoping I'm being knee jerky, but aside from the whole learning new instructions thing, there is a fundamental square peg issue which I don't see getting better until the summer when we realistically can spend.
 
Jev said:
He should adapt to his squad is all I’m saying. Everyone can see that this formation is not getting the best out of the players. No reason to be stupidly stubborn. He can get his ideas across in a 4-defender system. A coach who’s only capable of playing one formation is not a good coach.
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Or we could give the squad more than 5min to see how they perform in this system.

He rotated heavily in the beginning which means most players have only experienced this system for a handful of games, and you can't seriously expect that to be enough time to make any sort of decision on how well they will be adapting to it.

It's absolutely laughable to think that holding on to a new system (for the players) for longer than a month is "stupidly stubborn".
 
Eugenius said:
Our squad is generally not good enough. However if you picked any top level coach at random and told them to finish as high in the league as possible with the current squad, none of them are picking 3-4-3.
None of full backs we have are suited to a wing back, and they are the attacking out balls in the formation.
Aside from Amad & Mount, none of our attackers suit the wide #10 position.
I thought Höjlund would look better with the #10s closer to him, but we still the players and the patterns to get service into the box.
I get the point that we want more control and better build up than under ETH (and there are some greenshoots) , however if Amorim can only do that with one specific formation either 1) he is ahead of the game and every time will be playing 343 in a few years or 2) he's limited as a coach.

I'm hoping I'm being knee jerky, but aside from the whole learning new instructions thing, there is a fundamental square peg issue which I don't see getting better until the summer when we realistically can spend.
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While a lot of posters think it's "inevitable" we'd start rubbish, you normally hope for some sort of uplift when a manager comes in. A stolen win against City, and 4-0 against pre resurgent Everton seem the extent of that, with a lot of brutal defeats on route.

To think I was looking forward to this game and nervous about the next ones!
 
sullydnl said:
Nah.

We hired him knowing he only want to play 343, 343 is the short/medium/long term plan, so we should stick with 343.

Because the only way players improve in that system is by actually playing that system, and most of these players will still be here next season so they need as much time as they can to get used to it.

If we're shit in short term, so be it. This season has already gone to shit anyway, they can finish deep in midtable mediocrity for all the difference it makes.

And it's not like changing system guarantees any major improvement anyway. We've been shit in our 4231 shape for a long while too.
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Exactly this
 
My goodness. This sounds like EtH saying his United team won't play like Ajax. That was the reason you were signed as manager. Let's try something different and stick with it. Otherwise just sack the manager again.
 
Zlaatan said:
Or we could give the squad more than 5min to see how they perform in this system.

He rotated heavily in the beginning which means most players have only experienced this system for a handful of games, and you can't seriously expect that to be enough time to make any sort of decision on how well they will be adapting to it.

It's absolutely laughable to think that holding on to a new system (for the players) for longer than a month is "stupidly stubborn".
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It’s no secret I hate the 5-4-1 and did long before Amorim came. The reason being it’s an inherently defensive formation that, to me, makes poor use of the pitch. Unless you play wingers as wing-backs, you’re going to have too many men behind the ball. The formation simply overcrowds your half. You’re going to have a lot of control but will struggle to progress the ball because there aren’t enough players in front of it. Again, you can mitigate that built-in flaw by playing attackers as wing-backs but most managers are simply too cautious and sadly Amorim seemingly is too. And then it becomes a 5-4-1, rather than a 3-6-1. You need highly specialized players to make it work and we don’t have them. Until we do, it’s a terrible formation for us.
 
Stinkypete said:
I wouldn't go as far as championship level but honestly if you judge our team based on current not reputational ability, I would say our best couple of players mid table at best the rest are relegation fighters surrounded by young players that could possibly and that's the issue. Our transfer window arrogantly raised the floor when we needed ceiling level raisers. We will end up the way of Villa back when they were full of youth and prem experienced players, and falling down the table drastically, Unless the club act decisively in this window.
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Partial knee jerk but mid table is about right
 
Jev said:
He should adapt to his squad is all I’m saying. Everyone can see that this formation is not getting the best out of the players. No reason to be stupidly stubborn. He can get his ideas across in a 4-defender system. A coach who’s only capable of playing one formation is not a good coach.
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Because that has worked well for the last load of years. Players adapt to the manager/head coach and how he wants to play. Keeping ETH and backing him the market only to sack him a few months later set us back even further.
 
Carolina Red said:
Exactly this
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I’m not against this…

But please (everyone!!!). STOP SAYING WE WERE CRAP IN A 4231!!!

ETH only played it in his first season. We were mainly great. Anyone who is saying he played the same system in the subsequent seasons is absolutely mad…. It was 100% different!

Ruud brought it back. We were great!!!

Ruben had scrapped it again. We look crap. Stop rewriting history!
 
madzo2007 said:
Because that has worked well for the last load of years. Players adapt to the manager/head coach and how he wants to play. Keeping ETH and backing him the market only to sack him a few months later set us back even further.
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The idea that a manager should make no effort to adapt in order to maximize the strength of the squad at his disposal is so absurd that it’s hard to even argue against.
 
Formation is fine but needs to risk playing Antony and Amad at wing backs against bottom table teams. Man Utd should not have 6 defensive players on the field against the likes of Wolves ffs
 
Sandikan said:
While a lot of posters think it's "inevitable" we'd start rubbish, you normally hope for some sort of uplift when a manager comes in. A stolen win against City, and 4-0 against pre resurgent Everton seem the extent of that, with a lot of brutal defeats on route.

To think I was looking forward to this game and nervous about the next ones!
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It's not like Ruud is a tactical genius, but basically he added a bit of stodge in midfield, put square pegs in round holes and an arm around a shoulder and got a bounce out of the team.
 
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