3-4-3 Aint it.

[didz]

It would help massively if the wide players did their jobs and pinned the opposition when we had the ball. Part of that is probably down to team selection, with Amorim regularly using defenders there. But no I don't think 343/3421 is inherently flawed.

 

[Shaw's Shank Redemption]

We need to start playing wingers as wing backs and we should be fine.

Play attacking midfielders on either side of the pitch with wingers on both side of the pitch.

Defend with a back 3 alongside a double pivot.

Wingers at wingback will provide the quantity to the defence whilst they will add quality to the attack.

Its about turning us to an attacking team.

 

[avgp_1]

I don't know, I seem to like the positions we take up in this setup. Its individual incompetence that is costing us at the minute rather than teams exploiting any flaws with the system.

It is better Amorim sticks to his system rather than give it up for a few wins here or there playing counters which is the only thing that seems to suit these players. We might overachieve like we did with Erik in his first season but we can never have anything sustainable to keep that going.

It's obviously going to take time time but we dont have much to play for this year anyway, so I would rather wait to see things how things turn out few months down the road

 

[Xaviboy]

Amount times in last few games where we get Dalot on the LWB postion in one on one situations and it's a complete waste as he doesn't have the ability to beat a player or direct in attack.

Several times yesterday in 1st half we had opportunity to make something happen by opening up play on the left and feck all was made if it.

Sooner better we get in a LWB with pace and ability to create something down there.

 

[Trequarista10]

I think the major benefit of 343 is it allows a basic structure without needing to be asymmetrical. However, the way we're playing it is asymmetrical and we're losing some of the benefits.

We're playing inverted wing backs. That might be OK on one flank (even then I think it's questionable). But on two flanks, we just don't have the width. Dalot in particular is getting in good positions high up the pitch but then just needing to cut inside, and it's all very cramped. Diallo/Antony can at least take on their full back 1 v 1, but I still think it closes space. Whereas a left footer on the left, and right footer on the right, would create space for the two #10s.

Yesterday we also had Mainoo pushing very high, getting into the half spaces and in behind on occasion. But he was getting to spaces that Bruno and Diallo were operating. Which could lead to some great short interchanges, however with the WBs also being inverted, it was extremely cramped for space and fairly easy for Wolves to defend against - if we didn't run into ourselves first. Even Maz on the right was inverting a lot, stepping into CM both in build up at times, and in the final third. I'd prefer Mainoo, or whoever is #8, to stay deeper and more central, switch play, or play into the attackers feet, and join attacks late.

 

[Gaidal]

We only have one good player for the wingback roles, and that is Amad, but he plays him at ten instead. Dalot and Maz as the wingbacks gives us no offense.

 

[CunningLinguist]

For a supposed back 3/5 formation, we look ridiculously open when we lose the ball. Even before the red card, there were acres of space for Wolves to play through once they won the ball back. You would have thought we would be much better equipped to deal with defensive transitions with the added centre-back, but it just ain't the case at the moment.

 

[steeeb]

Maz and Amad at wingback is a good compromise as one is attacking and one isn't.

We don't have anyone that is attacking capable.

He should of put amad as a wing back and zirkzee as a 10 and it might have worked better.

Garnacho as a wing back is too risky and he's crap as a 10. His best position is up top our wide which we only do with wing backs - against fodder itd be fine.

 

[ron86]

Needs too many specific skill sets. does Amorim have an alternative? He needs to start winning games and perhaps deviating from his plan.

I'm not saying sack Amorim, I'm saying he needs try something else. Bringing in 10 new players isn't going to happen.

Or look at what Klopp done. Didn't deviate from his plan, had patchy results until he got his players in.

 

[Man-United]

Conte used 3-4-3 at Chelsea, right?

 

[gulli_G]

Conte used 3-4-3 at Chelsea, right?

Yes I believe so

 

[Matt851]

I'm sorry but.. for the people calling for us to play 433/4231. What player played consistently well the past year or year and a half with that formation and system?


Onana - been way too inconsistent.

Maguire - same, almost got sold because he couldn't play in a 4 backline.

Licha - inconsistent, specially after his injury.

Dalot - one good season, but what we're seeing from him now has been the norm for 90% of his time with us.

Malacia - just bad either way.

Shaw - constantly injured, so count him out.

Casemiro - was struggling playing in that system.

Mainoo - played well in that system (so 1 player so far)

Eriksen - struggling and finished physically.

Bruno - played his worse football lately in that system, if anything played better for Amorim(besides today's match) but he also seems to be in downward trajectory in his career might be time to move him on.

Mount - constantly injured, count him out.

Garnacho - had a decent last season, but also inconsistent. Still young. (So 2ish players)

Rashford - don't make me laugh.

Højlund - bad no matter the system it seems.

Anyone I'm forgetting(I'm not counting DeLigt, Ugarte or Mazraoui becuase they are new, also leaving Zirkzee out on purpose, because he fits in a system thats not in MU i.e get rid)?

My point is, what makes you think it will be better if we revert back to 433/4231 when the players where equally shit or mostly worse in that system? I genuinely dont get it.

The system isn't the problem, most of the players are.

We played a 4231 not a 433

Mazhroui is better suited to right back and the balance in midfield would be better. I also think garnacho would have a better chance of recovering his form

You are right it's hardly the solution to all our problems but it could make things a bjt better.

Anorim needs time and a lot of new players to make it work. Question is whether he will get it particularly if we end up in a relegation battle

 

[Licha-Vidic]

Was never ever in favour of it, and was the reason I was luke warm on Amorim when the rumours broke.

We’re now trying to fix our goalscoring problems by playing 5 defenders.

Our problems have compounded.

1. We conceded alot of goals. Especially set pieces. Why.. Because we have too many defenders in the team. Nobody knows to mark and assuming the other defender will mark the other player.

2. We don't score goals. With many defenders, we don't score a lot even as a low scoring team. We are 5th lowest scorers in the league. 5th.

3. We have a set piece problem. We have conceded 10 goals from set piece this season, 6 are since Amorim arrived.

4. Squad management.. Without Rashford and Garnacho. Our attack is toothless. Say we bin them off, their replacement would cost the club how much money? Take a guess?


Its not rosy at all

 

[sammyhol]

What's the alternative? 4231 was a disaster and a 433 would probably not be any better. The football has definitely improved than under ETH and is being undone by individual mistakes and, let's face it, a team with about as much fight as a pacifist in a boxing ring.

Amorim doesn't want to short term it and abandon what he was brought in to do and i agree with that. He's finding out who can or can't (most of them the latter) can't do it and with any luck will be moving these championship level passengers on.

With any luck, a LWB is brought in over January as a minimum, hopefully a striker as well but I feel that's a stretch. If SJR is as ruthless with the playing squad as he has been with the tea ladies, stewards and toilet cleaners, hopefully a good chunk of this squad are shifted on very soon.

We played a 4231 not a 433

Mazhroui is better suited to right back and the balance in midfield would be better. I also think garnacho would have a better chance of recovering his form

You are right it's hardly the solution to all our problems but it could make things a bjt better.

Anorim needs time and a lot of new players to make it work. Question is whether he will get it particularly if we end up in a relegation battle

We didn’t play either a 4231 or a 433 in the last 18 months… we played a 4141 with an inverting FB to provide midfield cover. And it was crap.

The last time we played 4231 consistently we won a cup, got to another final, got to a European quarter, and came 3rd in the league. That is why people are clamouring for it. Cos we were pretty good.

 

[dinostar77]

There's nothing wrong with 343. Amorim said after the match yesterday, that the games are coming so thick and fast that there is simply no time on the training ground to work on a system and philosophy that is new to the players.

Amorim ".."I manage but I haven't trained. They [players] need time to train because they are changing completely their way of playing. It is hard on them..."

Don't forget he wanted to originally come to utd when the season had ended so he had a preseason to work with the players, but Utd insisted he come asap.

 

[Albo]

Hopefully Amorim is flexible and brave enough to to drop players like Bruno and Dalot . System clearly isn’t working with 5 defenders and need to adapt to players strengths. Amorim wasn’t picked any players from reserves , to give them any chance how worse can they be !

 

[sammyhol]

There's nothing wrong with 343. Amorim said after the match yesterday, that the games are coming so thick and fast that there is simply no time on the training ground to work on a system and philosophy that is new to the players.

Amorim ".."I manage but I haven't trained. They [players] need time to train because they are changing completely their way of playing. It is hard on them..."

Don't forget he wanted to originally come to utd when the season had ended so he had a preseason to work with the players, but Utd insisted he come asap.

There isn’t anything wrong with the 343/3421 system… but does it suit the squad?

There is seemingly no place that suits 2 of our most dangerous attackers in Garna and Rashford.

Bruno has never looked consistent in anything other than the free role 10 afforded by a 4231

None of our traditional CBs look particularly well suited to the wide CB role because of either a lack of ball playing ability or mobility.

Dalot has never looked consistent in anything other than a traditional RB role.

We need a complete squad rebuild to play this system. And with PSR/FFP, plus the bumper contracts our players are on, how is that gonna be possible?

Ruud proved you can get a tune out of this squad in the right setup.

 

[mctrials23]

Ruud proved you can get a tune out of this squad in the right setup.

You have to be kidding. The few games under Ruud we looked basically identical to EtH but with a bit more work rate and some more luck.

He needs some players to play this setup but we have seen that at times the players can do what they should in this system. They just can't do it consistently or at a high enough level yet and there are some serious issues in the squad that need fixing.

 

[Sunny Jim]

we need to come up a formation that does not require left footers in the squad.

 

[LukeTheRed]

Is it really 3-4-3?

For me it’s more 5-2-2-1 - as our wingbacks are extremely defensive players.

In games which we should dominate I think he needs to try more attacking players in the wingback positions.

At the minute teams have worked out that if they mark Amad out the game then we have no attacking threat

 

[sammyhol]

You have to be kidding. The few games under Ruud we looked basically identical to EtH but with a bit more work rate and some more luck.

He needs some players to play this setup but we have seen that at times the players can do what they should in this system. They just can't do it consistently or at a high enough level yet and there are some serious issues in the squad that need fixing.

Absolute rubbish. When did ETH play a double pivot and wide FBs after his first season??

Ruud played a mid block 4231 with a Cas/Ugarte double pivot. With traditional overlapping not underlapping FBs. And we looked miles better as a result.

4 games. 3 wins. 1 draw. 11 scored. 3 conceded.

 

[JBG]

We played a 4231 not a 433

Mazhroui is better suited to right back and the balance in midfield would be better. I also think garnacho would have a better chance of recovering his form

You are right it's hardly the solution to all our problems but it could make things a bjt better.

Anorim needs time and a lot of new players to make it work. Question is whether he will get it particularly if we end up in a relegation battle

I don't disagree with the first part, but it would still not solve our problems long term. Which is the players, there's genuinely 4 players I'd keep(Amad, Mazraoui, Ugarte and Garnacho if he can stop acting like a child).

 

[didz]

For a supposed back 3/5 formation, we look ridiculously open when we lose the ball. Even before the red card, there were acres of space for Wolves to play through once they won the ball back. You would have thought we would be much better equipped to deal with defensive transitions with the added centre-back, but it just ain't the case at the moment.

Well we went 531 with the wingbacks not really pressing, so they just worked around the midfield block extremely easily. Notice how Cunha started drifting wide to exploit that, as if we needed to give him any sort of help tearing us a new one after that first half!

 

[Hammondo]

Our problems have compounded.

1. We conceded alot of goals. Especially set pieces. Why.. Because we have too many defenders in the team. Nobody knows to mark and assuming the other defender will mark the other player.

2. We don't score goals. With many defenders, we don't score a lot even as a low scoring team. We are 5th lowest scorers in the league. 5th.

3. We have a set piece problem. We have conceded 10 goals from set piece this season, 6 are since Amorim arrived.

4. Squad management.. Without Rashford and Garnacho. Our attack is toothless. Say we bin them off, their replacement would cost the club how much money? Take a guess?


Its not rosy at all

Our attack was toothless with them.

 

[giggs-beckham]

Sorry, but you and some others in this thread is failing quickly.

I had too much to drink so emotions took over. I think he's great but it does need to click a bit more soon. I also don't have faith in the 3421 so hope he goes 433, let's see.

I have almost 0 faith in most of the players, I think it's the worst team I've seen us have, ever.

 

[Oranges038]

I had too much to drink so emotions took over. I think he's great but it does need to click a bit more soon. I also don't have faith in the 3421 so hope he goes 433, let's see.

I have almost 0 faith in most of the players, I think it's the worst team I've seen us have, ever.

If he changes he's just admitting failure and the players will know they immediately have an out to down tools again.

 

[Nas-JR]

Amount times in last few games where we get Dalot on the LWB postion in one on one situations and it's a complete waste as he doesn't have the ability to beat a player or direct in attack.

Several times yesterday in 1st half we had opportunity to make something happen by opening up play on the left and feck all was made if it.

Sooner better we get in a LWB with pace and ability to create something down there.

He cuts back every single time. How do we not have a single left footed player who can player there! LWB is a must in Jan.

 

[saivet]

I don't think the formation is a massive issue but the player profiles are clearly different. As much as some have suggested good players can play anywhere, I don't think that is necessarily the case in this set up, particularly at wing back or in the no.10 positions.

There are plenty of very good traditional full backs that would look a bit lost at wing back and there are loads of good wingers that would struggle in the no.10 positions in this set up. There's no point pretending that it's all to do with the quality of the players when there is definitely a mismatch in terms of profiles.

It does also make recruitment more tricky (not necessarily a bad thing) - we will want to sign a wing back that is very good in this set up but is also comfortable playing as a full back in an back four. The same applies to the no.10, we will want to sign someone that has the profile to play in the twin 10 but also capable of player as a winger in a 4231 / 433 set up. If we don't do that and it doesn't work out with Amorim we'll be complaining about how our full back is shite defensively and how our winger should be playing centrally.

 

[evil_geko]

Absolute rubbish. When did ETH play a double pivot and wide FBs after his first season??

Ruud played a mid block 4231 with a Cas/Ugarte double pivot. With traditional overlapping not underlapping FBs. And we looked miles better as a result.

4 games. 3 wins. 1 draw. 11 scored. 3 conceded.

We didn't really, most games it was even and we were just more lucky. His last game vs Everton for example was pretty even match yet we won 3:0. Results were decent but we played nothing special under Ruud.

 

[NoLogo]

Conte used 3-4-3 at Chelsea, right?

So did Tuchel when winning the CL with Chelsea but both of them also had excellent wingbacks, we have a pile of trash.

 

[Oranges038]

Conte used 3-4-3 at Chelsea, right?

Victor Moses at rwb.

 

[Tosicsleftpeg]

I think the major benefit of 343 is it allows a basic structure without needing to be asymmetrical. However, the way we're playing it is asymmetrical and we're losing some of the benefits.

We're playing inverted wing backs. That might be OK on one flank (even then I think it's questionable). But on two flanks, we just don't have the width. Dalot in particular is getting in good positions high up the pitch but then just needing to cut inside, and it's all very cramped. Diallo/Antony can at least take on their full back 1 v 1, but I still think it closes space. Whereas a left footer on the left, and right footer on the right, would create space for the two #10s.

Yesterday we also had Mainoo pushing very high, getting into the half spaces and in behind on occasion. But he was getting to spaces that Bruno and Diallo were operating. Which could lead to some great short interchanges, however with the WBs also being inverted, it was extremely cramped for space and fairly easy for Wolves to defend against - if we didn't run into ourselves first. Even Maz on the right was inverting a lot, stepping into CM both in build up at times, and in the final third. I'd prefer Mainoo, or whoever is #8, to stay deeper and more central, switch play, or play into the attackers feet, and join attacks late.

Good post mate.

The width not being utilised is such a huge issue, i thought we would be using wingers/wide mids as our wide players so they were an outlet on the attack but just had to get back quickly and be bodies on the back foot and force players inside to our strong core instead we are trying to actually tackle and defend out wide and overcommitting to the defence, which means when we get the ball back we are totally pinned in our half.

Genuinely think players like Garnacho should be given a bit of time at wing back just to provide width and pace, ok they might not be defensively minded but just tell them to get back and block the cross etc it's really not that hard. We have zero outlet going forward. At least with our crazy basketball formation we could create some chances (although the wingers kept shooting and messing it up) now we've scored 2 in the last 3 games, it's not good enough.

 

[sugar_kane]

If sticking to 343 is so incredibly important (despite no one ever mentioning it as a serious option before Amorim came on the scene) then does it not also hold that we should be transitioning my to it in a carefully managed manner instead of switching to it literally overnight?

The squad is even less suited to this formation than it was to Ten Hag’s kamikaze ball - at least back then it was more a case of needing players who were significant improvements on the current lot, as opposed to players who play entirely different positions.

343 has created a scenario where more than half the team are playing positions they’re not familiar with, and have made promising players like Mainoo/Garnacho no longer have an obvious place in the 11.

If you want to argue (as Amorim did initially) that the formation is a red herring and the style of play is more important then fine - but in that case if the formation is irrelevant why not switch it up while maintaining elements of the desired play style?

This current scenario of the Wilcox/Berrada letting a manager impose their play style wholesale on the team despite not having the requisite specialists is no different than Murtough just letting Ten Hag do whatever mental shit he wanted. It’s a massive deference of responsibility and suggests to me there is still no sporting leadership or direction in the club.

 

[Acquire Me]

I had too much to drink so emotions took over. I think he's great but it does need to click a bit more soon. I also don't have faith in the 3421 so hope he goes 433, let's see.

I have almost 0 faith in most of the players, I think it's the worst team I've seen us have, ever.

Very poor performance yesterday. I was disappointed by that, but it’s not about the manager. While many of our players might not suit the formation, they are not remotely good enough either way.

We need to accept that this season will be hard, but hopefully it will be somewhat better performances as we move forward.

I will go to war for Amorim. He is brave enough to stand tall in this horrible situation and even if we don’t have the players we need right now, the progress is visible.

 

[G_and_T]

It doesn't matter what formation we play, but if it's 1 striker against 3 defenders we aren't going to win.

 

[Von Mistelroum]

I don't think anyone can make this claim when we have such poor personnel. Having Dalot as one of our main creative outlets is absolutely shocking for starters. This formation requires players who can do their jobs well, and we have about 3 of those.

 

[Maluco]

If this plan is what it takes to get rid of so many hangers on, let’s push it through. We have a real issue at the club of looking to the past and hanging on to what’s not worked and who hasn’t worked out.

This is a bright, young coach, arguably the most coveted in world football, and we have him.

If it means we lose the likes of Rashford, Bruno and Garnacho and get rid of the bad sentiment in the squad and have a terrible season while in transition, let’s push it through.

It’s time to finally move forward and cast off the chains.

 

[Rex Banner]

I like Amorim but the formation does worry me, partly because he seems so wedded to it. I understand all the arguments about implementing a style of play, but you should be able to keep a consistent style of play whilst tweaking a formation. I just don't see any benefit in having a manager that's so rigid when it comes to formation.

But the fact it's so reliant on wing backs is the major concern. How many top quality wing backs are there that are available? It's such a niche position. It's not as easy as playing a full back and hoping for the best, as we're seeing with Dalot and Maz. Every club also now knows that we need at least one, probably two, and will try and rinse us.

It's a completely hypothetical situation, but lets say you had a player like Salah or Vinicius, where would they play in this system? They're not playing at wing back. They could do a job in one of the 10 positions, but you're not gonna get the best out them there. It just seems so restrictive in terms of recruitment, especially when we're likely gonna be hamstrung by FFP.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

Maz and Amad at wingback is a good compromise as one is attacking and one isn't.

We don't have anyone that is attacking capable.

He should of put amad as a wing back and zirkzee as a 10 and it might have worked better.

Garnacho as a wing back is too risky and he's crap as a 10. His best position is up top our wide which we only do with wing backs - against fodder itd be fine.

I disagree with it being risky for Garnacho to play LWB. You don’t have to be some sort of defensive wizard in that spot, really you just need to be willing to track fully back. But at least going forward Garnacho would offer far more threat with the amount of isolation 1v1s teams are allowing us since adjusting and shading their defensive structure to Amads side.

Can’t keep playing a complete non threat in that spot, especially not with how poor the inside attackers are right now.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

I like Amorim but the formation does worry me, partly because he seems so wedded to it. I understand all the arguments about implementing a style of play, but you should be able to keep a consistent style of play whilst tweaking a formation. I just don't see any benefit in having a manager that's so rigid when it comes to formation.

But the fact it's so reliant on wing backs is the major concern. How many top quality wing backs are there that are available? It's such a niche position. It's not as easy as playing a full back and hoping for the best, as we're seeing with Dalot and Maz. Every club also now knows that we need at least one, probably two, and will try and rinse us.

It's a completely hypothetical situation, but lets say you had a player like Salah or Vinicius, where would they play in this system? They're not playing at wing back. They could do a job in one of the 10 positions, but you're not gonna get the best out them there. It just seems so restrictive in terms of recruitment, especially when we're likely gonna be hamstrung by FFP.

Both Salah and Vinicius could easily play as inside 10’s and most likely with a player of that level you’d see Amorim adjust the setup to get them into the best possible attacking positions consistently (like any good coach).

Really the main things you need as an inside 10 in this system is the ability to carry and drive with the ball and operate in tight spaces, and then obvious being a final third threat.