Not sure why the 3421 is talked about as this uniquely Amorim thing. Doesn't most top teams on the planet play this shape? Certainly at least flirted with it in the last couple of years. Pep certainly has played a 3-4-2-1 since the treble season, and Leverkusen under Alonso basically played the excact same shape last year. I am sure there is differing tactical instructions which better tactical minds than me can explain, but from what I understand it is all about that midfield box of four, while still having width and a forward to stretch defences, while maintaining numerical superiority in the backline to always have a free man for bringing it out of defence. Basically a shape and ideas most team and managers now implement into their gameplan even if they stray a bit from the formation.
So I am not sure why the 3-4-2-1 is so controversial at United when Amorim uses it. It is basically currently the default formation just like 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3 and 4-4-2 has been in the past. He just needs players that understand what they are supposed to do, and have the confidence and ability to execute it. As you need in any formation, but at least the one he is implementing matches what most other teams are setting up like
——————Onana
———-Yoro-De Ligt-Martinez
Amad—Ugarte—Case—Mazraoui
———-Eriksen——-Bruno
——————Hojlund
Pep has long since ditched conventional fullbacks and switch to the WM or 3223 buildup or however it's done. At times Utd under Amorim have dropped into a back 4 when defending, other times it's been a back 5.
In attacking play formations are very rarely set at 4231 or 433, even under SAF Giggs and Beckham as wide players would be found in the middle or the opposite side of the pitch. The fullbacks would make runs down the outside or inwards if that's where the space was. These players reacted to how space moved and opened up around them because they could read the game, had the brains and technique to play and adapt in attacking phases with quick thinking.
The problem at Utd is that too many players lack a football brain, the technical ability and a willingness to work hard.
Good post Lash.I am confident it is the right thing to do going forward, but I'm even more confident it was never the right move with the squad we have. I thought that in general when picking a new manager, if they dive in to 3 at the back, the fans will turn on it quite quickly if they can't make it a success, as it's "not the united way".
We've switched to a formation that relies on athleticism and guile in the midfield and wing backs. We've neglected that in the midfield for the good part of a decade and have no proper attacking wingbacks. It's really not a surprise it's turned to utter shit, but we've seriously got to invest in Jan to give the squad the hope it's the right way forward.
What on earth has the system got to do with the goals that we are conceding?
Wolves, direct from a corner...and we played with 10-men for an entire half. 2nd goal is irrelevant at that point in the game.
Manchester City, set-piece. Arsenal, two set pieces. First two Bournemouth goals, set-pieces.
You could play 9 at the back but if you can't defend a set piece you're going to concede a tonne of goals
That probably is our strongest team when everyone is fit, but even that is incredibly weak.——————Onana
———-Yoro-De Ligt-Martinez
Amad—Ugarte—Case—Mazraoui
———-Eriksen——-Bruno
——————Hojlund
It's certainly not what we have "built" a squad for and the deficiencies show.Needs too many specific skill sets. does Amorim have an alternative? He needs to start winning games and perhaps deviating from his plan.
I'm not saying sack Amorim, I'm saying he needs try something else. Bringing in 10 new players isn't going to happen.
A lot of people could see that Ten Hag and co had utterly fecked us with his squad composition and disregard for getting players with the right athletic profile.
The absurdity of him not being sacked after the FA Cup still rankles.
This kind of short term thinking is partly why we’re in the situation we are.
It’s more important to get as many of the players playing his system properly. Add appropriate reinforcements in January and then complete the job next summer. By this time next year you’d expect us to be vastly improved.
Far better than playing a system he doesn’t want to play long term, just to finish in the conference league places, to then have to start from scratch system wise in the summer. We’ll then have months of teething problems next year to deal with.
People just need to chill out and have patience.
Despite losing games we’ve already seen a massive difference under Amorim. We can see patterns and a clear style. He’s even admitted they’ll be times where we play a back 4. No idea when but he’s been asked about different formations in previous press conferences.
What did we expect when hiring a manager like Amorim?
Much like Erik ten Hag, we’ve hired Amorim because of his philosophy and style. There’s really only two approaches a new manager can make at a club:
1 - Implement a system that works for the players he’s got by making them tough to beat. The problem with this approach is it might go against that philosophy and style, and if successful, might make it more harder to change tact in the summer.
2 - Implement the philosophy and style of the new manager. Test to see which players fit and which players don’t. This will involve growing pains and potentially the results won’t go your way, but at least you are moving towards the team you want to be.
For me, I think Amorim has to try and see what works and what doesn’t work, but the danger is that if results continue to go the wrong way some might start to view him as another Erik ten Hag. I don’t have an issue with him trying to put his philosophy and style in place. It was always going to be tough. But perhaps he needs to make slight adjusts to ensure we are harder to beat defensively and more effective going forwards, otherwise this is going to be a long second half of the season.
Agree. Amad is the only player of ours who is capable of playing on the wing in Amorim systemNope, Dalot and Mazraoui are nowhere near high on the pitch to make it that.
Nor are they effective enough attacking-wise. They are pure full backs.
They should decide that by the choice of their appointment, not by appointing a guy and forcing a different system on him.With a proper footballing structure in place shouldn't the club be dictating the philosophy and style? Isn't that how top clubs are supposed to work?
That way we don't have to tear up the squad and sign £400-600m worth of new players for every new manager that comes in.
It's frustrating, as we've always wanted these players in midfield, we just never seem to be able to pull it off. I think even if we had got someone like Frenkie in the midfield, we're still just missing profiles everywhere. Mount can't stay fit, neither can any of our LBs and Rashford and Garnacho do not suit this formation. I like Ugarte a lot, but he seems the only one that truly fits his role. The rest are square pegs.Good post Lash.
The midfield is seriously weak in comparison to the best teams domestically and in Europe and has been for a very long time. The only time our midfield even looked remotely good was when we had Pogba and Matic and even then there was issues out of possession. But since then our midfield has got worse as far as ball progression and carrying ability is concerned. So Amorim is trying to implement his system which requires better ball retention in midfield along with progression of the ball.
But the ball progression part is lacking in midfield and we end up having more possession without really progressing the ball from midfield. And as a opposition manager it's easy to thwart our game plan because the midfield is weak as a collective unit and hence the burden falls on the backline to progress the ball.
So being married to a system is fine and I like to see that but I don't think it's clever to be married to a formation when it seems the current squad is unsuited to taking up positions in the formation in question.
So it doesn't matter what formation you decide to play because playing more proactively as a team can be achieved in any formation as long as your playing personnel suit the positional requirements within the formation.
Unfortunately, as in the previous seasons NO club will pay anything remotely what we have squandered on this mediocrity. We have seen the back of Pogba, Martial, Lingard et al and received zero funds. History will now repeat itself if we attempt to move almost any current squad member as no club would entertain a member of this army of unfit, inept players. One only has to look at the captain of this army for an example of unprofessional behaviour, a seriously flawed individual whose imperfections are displayed for all to see EVERY match day. But I can only guess what the dressing room "discussions" would be like....I very much doubt all be harmony, sweetness and good natured politeness. I could go on but I feel the majority of United fans will be well aware of the huge assortment of problems facing Ruben Amorim....he will need patience and understanding.No tactic can fix this. We are paying millions every week to a bunch of players who can't even be arsed to try, they are only here for their paycheck. The culture within the club is rotten and we need a complete reboot. The majority of the players should be put up for sale in January.
They made adjustments after at least a year. Amorim hasn't even had a preseason with the players. Why would a manager feel confident in switching, when he knows he was never given a good amount of time on the training pitch, coaching his players? That leaves doubt that his preference can't work.And things improved. They are hardly the same situation though, Ten Hag's ideal style of play was batshit. Amroim's style of play is fine it's just we currently don't have the personnel to effectively play his chosen formation.
To be honest a coach with so little flexibility is a bit of a red flag for me, hopefully he tweaks things. Even Klopp and Pep made adjustments after their first few months in English football.
They should decide that by the choice of their appointment, not by appointing a guy and forcing a different system on him.
They made adjustments after at least a year. Amorim hasn't even had a preseason with the players. Why would a manager feel confident in switching, when he knows he was never given a good amount of time on the training pitch, coaching his players? That leaves doubt that his preference can't work.
These players have failed under multiple systems and managers. The problem is the players and a good portion of them need to be replaced, regardless of what formation we're using.
The only positive is it gives the recruitment team a very obvious brief and makes it very obvious who will be sold. They have the majority of the season to work towards a summer overhaul and they have obviously made a big decision with someone like Rashford very early.But he hasn't had much time coaching these players and doesn't know them all too well. Yet he's asking them to play a formation this squad was not set up for and we don't really have the personnel in key areas to use effectively. During a pre-season is usually the best time to implement radical changes to the way a team plays. Trying it mid-season will surely lead to doubt that a lot of these players can adapt to it who otherwise might have a better chance of doing so if the process was started in July.
Agreed, in an ideal world we would have a philosophy and style in place, which would influence our signings and managerial hires to fit our system. Unfortunately we haven’t really had that in place since SAF. We’ve tried different managers and approaches from van Gaal to Mourinho to Ole to ten Hag and now Amorim. There’s been some silverware and the odd good season which has given us hope, but ultimately we’ve hopscotched around rather than put a system in place and stuck with it.With a proper footballing structure in place shouldn't the club be dictating the philosophy and style? Isn't that how top clubs are supposed to work?
That way we don't have to tear up the squad and sign £400-600m worth of new players for every new manager that comes in.
On the one hand, starting in preseason would give the players a better chance to adapt to the new system. It also gives the coaches the time to develop familiarity with the players, and in turn, it allows the players a chance to develop familiarity with their coaches and the system.But he hasn't had much time coaching these players and doesn't know them all too well. Yet he's asking them to play a formation this squad was not set up for and we don't really have the personnel in key areas to use effectively. During a pre-season is usually the best time to implement radical changes to the way a team plays. Trying it mid-season will surely lead to doubt that a lot of these players can adapt to it who otherwise might have a better chance of doing so if the process was started in July.
