I’m extremely disappointed with how cautious he’s turned out to be. He’s playing 7 out of 11 defensive players every game. No wonder we’re not scoring. On the current evidence he’s the most negative manager we’ve had in my lifetime. Did not expect that.
3-4-3 Ain’t it
- Thread starter RedDevilCanuck
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran discuss a horrific month of December and a depressing FOUR defeats in a row - the latest coming against Wolves and Newcastle.
They discuss how much blame is on Ruben Amorim and rank our squad against other Premier League teams.
Do we have any chance of avoiding defeat at Anfield?
Amorim wants a 3-4-2-1. Right now we are a 5-4-1 with Rasmus in the role of Robinson Crusoe, stranded on a desert island. Amorim wants defense, midfield and attack close to another. That won´t work.
1) MdL , Martinez, Evans, Lindelof and Harry are all too slow to push wide forward. They will be caught, when we lose possession. Only Yoro fits the system. They stand too deep for Amorim.
2) The wingbacks are not providing the goods for the striker. It is a physically extremely demanding role in the system, if you are not standing high, looking for fast transitions and pressing. Amad can do it on the right. Dalot might also be able to do it on the right and Anthony has at least got the skillset for doing it on the left side. Both are not really top for this role though. Mazraoui won´t work here. Shaw is always injured and too slow. Garnacho/Rashford are not able to do the defence part, and both won´t cross into the box. Basically it´s a mess. We need crosses.
3) In the CM we have Ugarte for the role of the breaker and Mainoo to do the ball playing part of the Amorim deal. Ugarte is a fit. Mainoo less so, even though he was pretty good last night. Mainoo lacks pace and physicality to be perfect for playing next to Ugarte. Casemiro is a back up to Ugarte but works only WITH Ugarte as a pure breaking machine. Eriksen will also only work with Ugarte here and is better at 10. Bruno can play here, but like Eriksen he is better suited elsewhere. The CM is a mess.
4) Mount is the best fit for AM, but he is injured again and again. Bruno has the energy, but lacks the discipline and loses the ball way too often. Eriksen could work here, but he lacks the pressing ability, that Amorim wants here. Amad, Garnacho and Rashford are shoehorned in, but it is not the right position. We need a creator who can do the pressing as well, and a Mount kind of player, who is ready to play a lot of games. Right now we can´t play Amorim ball due to lack of pressing and discipline on the ball
5) Rasmus and Zirkzee. Zirkzee is actually a good player in the right system. It is just not this one, and he needs to go. Rasmus would be a perfect fit, if the system worked. As long as it doesn´t, he will look like Robinson Crusoe.
Our biggest problems are pace and discipline on the ball. We are simply not compact enough, and a lot of players do not fit the system. I won´t put it on Amorim, but it should have been obvious, that we were going to have problems with his system. That rises a question, that I really don´t want to ask, but it is the elephant in the room. Should we rather have gone for someone with a system that was better suited for our squad?
If we want to play Amorim ball, it will cost us.
We need at least a world class LWB, a fast LCB, a ball playing CM with pace and pressing resistance, probably two AM who can pass and press, and a 9 to compete with Rasmus.
You could also argue, that we need a new keeper. Onana is a pure confidence player. On form, he is top notch, but when he dips, he REALLY dips.
I am not against Amorim, but with that in mind, I would have preferred someone like Thomas Frank.
1) MdL , Martinez, Evans, Lindelof and Harry are all too slow to push wide forward. They will be caught, when we lose possession. Only Yoro fits the system. They stand too deep for Amorim.
2) The wingbacks are not providing the goods for the striker. It is a physically extremely demanding role in the system, if you are not standing high, looking for fast transitions and pressing. Amad can do it on the right. Dalot might also be able to do it on the right and Anthony has at least got the skillset for doing it on the left side. Both are not really top for this role though. Mazraoui won´t work here. Shaw is always injured and too slow. Garnacho/Rashford are not able to do the defence part, and both won´t cross into the box. Basically it´s a mess. We need crosses.
3) In the CM we have Ugarte for the role of the breaker and Mainoo to do the ball playing part of the Amorim deal. Ugarte is a fit. Mainoo less so, even though he was pretty good last night. Mainoo lacks pace and physicality to be perfect for playing next to Ugarte. Casemiro is a back up to Ugarte but works only WITH Ugarte as a pure breaking machine. Eriksen will also only work with Ugarte here and is better at 10. Bruno can play here, but like Eriksen he is better suited elsewhere. The CM is a mess.
4) Mount is the best fit for AM, but he is injured again and again. Bruno has the energy, but lacks the discipline and loses the ball way too often. Eriksen could work here, but he lacks the pressing ability, that Amorim wants here. Amad, Garnacho and Rashford are shoehorned in, but it is not the right position. We need a creator who can do the pressing as well, and a Mount kind of player, who is ready to play a lot of games. Right now we can´t play Amorim ball due to lack of pressing and discipline on the ball
5) Rasmus and Zirkzee. Zirkzee is actually a good player in the right system. It is just not this one, and he needs to go. Rasmus would be a perfect fit, if the system worked. As long as it doesn´t, he will look like Robinson Crusoe.
Our biggest problems are pace and discipline on the ball. We are simply not compact enough, and a lot of players do not fit the system. I won´t put it on Amorim, but it should have been obvious, that we were going to have problems with his system. That rises a question, that I really don´t want to ask, but it is the elephant in the room. Should we rather have gone for someone with a system that was better suited for our squad?
If we want to play Amorim ball, it will cost us.
We need at least a world class LWB, a fast LCB, a ball playing CM with pace and pressing resistance, probably two AM who can pass and press, and a 9 to compete with Rasmus.
You could also argue, that we need a new keeper. Onana is a pure confidence player. On form, he is top notch, but when he dips, he REALLY dips.
I am not against Amorim, but with that in mind, I would have preferred someone like Thomas Frank.
Fully agree! This season is done and dusted. No more compromises, go with his style and see if it works out. If not, then at least we gave it a try.
Yeah he was an influence alright.
He wanted Antony over a month before we signed him. His insistance on waiting on DeJong when he obviously wasn't coming is what drove Antonys price up when we had to scramble late in the window. He wanted Martinez and/or Timber, we also signed Casemiro as a result of his DeJong nonsense. Yeah he wanted Kane and it was Murtaughs fault we didn't get him had nothing to do with Levy or the fee Spur wanted
Listen mate let's no derail this thread off topic with your Ten Hag nonsense.
There's a great deal of irony in you suggesting we not derail the thread when you're the one who incorrectly brought Ten Hag up.
Our failures under Amorim are down to Amorim, and the people who brought him in. Eventually you're going to need to find a new scapegoat, as blaming the manager who isn't here anymore for us still being rubbish is a bit desperate.
Excellent post.
Partly the truth but still funny as many have said that our squad is actually is pretty good for a three-at-the-back line-up when Amorim arrived. Now a few weeks later we'd suddenly need 10 new players to be able to play that system. And it would probably be the same for 442, 433, 4231, 532 etc. Crap players will make a crap system, that's the answer for me.
I dont think 5 at the back is a problem. The problem is that every point in time, 3 of the 5 defenders are just awful and so it makes the formation look bad. 5 at the back with 5 proper players is an extremely effective formation. Look at Inter Milan now, Leverkusen last year or Juve in the Conte days.
After a few games now, I have a better idea of how we I think we should line up in the 343 formation.
ONANA - A bad month but aug to Nov he was good
RCB MAZ- pace at the back has worked better here than when at wb
CB DE LIGT
LCB YORO- wrong side for him but start over Maguire who's been ok
RWB AMAD - wants to attack, hasn't been as effective since switch to RAMF
CM UGARTE
CM KOBBIE
LWB a left footer! Dalot killing all the attacks that side
LAMF GARNACHO needs to stay inside closer to hoijlund
RAMF BRUNO
ST HOIJLUND
ONANA - A bad month but aug to Nov he was good
RCB MAZ- pace at the back has worked better here than when at wb
CB DE LIGT
LCB YORO- wrong side for him but start over Maguire who's been ok
RWB AMAD - wants to attack, hasn't been as effective since switch to RAMF
CM UGARTE
CM KOBBIE
LWB a left footer! Dalot killing all the attacks that side
LAMF GARNACHO needs to stay inside closer to hoijlund
RAMF BRUNO
ST HOIJLUND
so it's 5221 a lot of the time?
Maybe I'm old fashioned, but when in crisis and without time to train for a specific system 4-4-2 is usually reliable. Everybody knows their role, have an obvious partner and cover ups in zonal marking are self-evident.
The big issue would still be the entire left wing (I don't understand how you didn't renew Reguilon's loan last season as it was clear that Shaw won't be available most of the time), but you can somehow work around that with Martinez as LB and either Anthony or an inverted midfielder (Bruno, Mount, Eriksen) as a LM. Not great options I know, but at least then you have a formation that makes some sense with the rest of the team falling into their natural positions (De Ligt/Maguire/Lindelof as CB; Mazraoui/Dalot as RB; Ugarte/Mainoo/Casemiro as CM and so on).
Probably won't happen with Amorim anyway, as he'll hope to consolidate his 3 at the back approach.
The big issue would still be the entire left wing (I don't understand how you didn't renew Reguilon's loan last season as it was clear that Shaw won't be available most of the time), but you can somehow work around that with Martinez as LB and either Anthony or an inverted midfielder (Bruno, Mount, Eriksen) as a LM. Not great options I know, but at least then you have a formation that makes some sense with the rest of the team falling into their natural positions (De Ligt/Maguire/Lindelof as CB; Mazraoui/Dalot as RB; Ugarte/Mainoo/Casemiro as CM and so on).
Probably won't happen with Amorim anyway, as he'll hope to consolidate his 3 at the back approach.
Absolutely, and it’s shite.
But he hasn't got the players. We haven't got anyone on the left to play the LWB role at all. For RWB for how Amorim wants it then is probably Amad who is good enough, but that changed once Mount was injured.
The RWB and LWB positions are the problem and the difference between 3421 and 5221.
He can play Antony at LWB and Amad at RWB. Might not be ideal but you simply can’t use this formation with defensive full-backs, everything is better than that.
If you haven’t got the players you either try something else (Antony), or you do something else tactically.
Or you keep getting twatted every week with the same shite tactics and you get fired.
United won’t risk going down for him, so he either does something different quickly, else he’ll be out of a job.
This is more the issue, rather than the formation. If you line up with 3 CB, 2 FBs as WBs and a CM pair whose main role is defensive you basically end up with a team reliant on a moment of magic from 2-3 attacking players and an isolated CF.
343 in general I think is a smart move, it’s flexible in game and it causes opponents issues with overloads in wide areas but this second point is negated by playing Dalot and Maz. Amorim needs to be bold, put attackers into the WB slots, because we aren’t a team that can sit in and soak up pressure. We have to attack more.
Use Amad at right wb and use Rashford as on of the strikers? Play with 2 strikers and one 10 instead? Not that hard to change but Amorin seems stuck on "his" way and my guess that will get him fired within 6 weeks
100% with you and I said in another post we should be trying Antony LWB vs Liverpool. Trouble is, he sulked when EtH put him there.
Amorim seems reluctant to move Amad out of that #10 role and use Garnacho with Bruno.
Yea it's too defensive and the 2 10's is a strange one for me. I just hope he can get his system to work in this league and with obvious better players. I've got doubts though.
The problem is that it's hard to get out of a defensive position. When were defending well naturally go 5atb.
There is an issue with this back 5 though. Inter play a back 5 (with very energetic wingbacks), however they also play with 3 in midfield and 2 up top. So the space in the midfield isn't as open for the opposition. Amorim whether intentionally or more likely unintentionally due to who he is picking is effectively playing a back 5 with only 2 midfielders in the centre hence the amount of space in our midfield. Newcastle simply positioned a player either side of Case and Eriksen knowing that either the wingback or wide CB would need to decide whether to step into that space or sit off (as our CAMs were often too high up trying to press). Whilst then having 2 players stuck out side pinning the wingbacks back ready to run into the space. So in the build up Newcastle are effectively playing it into midfield with no pressure whilst we have 5 defenders marking 2 or 3 players in their front line. That makes 0 sense. Newcastle didn't even have to over commit players to create dangerous positions.
The point of the 3 4 3 is you have 3 attackers occupying the opposition defenders and centre mids. Their fullbacks and CMs should be nervous about bombing forward due to our CAMs potentially exploiting that space. That should allow the wingbacks to push up into the midfield line and basically be wide midfielders forming that 4 in midfield. It comes with the risks of counter attacks but that is why you have 3 at the back not 2. This 5 at the back is not that. Part of it is the players lack of confidence and ability but part of it is also Amorim. The team needs to take risks to score, he needs to have at least 1 attacking wingback on the pitch and additionally allow a CB to step into midfield with and without the ball. At the moment it is like he is setting the team up out of fear. Which is not the United way unfortunately.
I agree but also don't know. I never watched Sporting to see who their wing backs defended.
The simple fact is we don’t have the players for at least 6 of the starting positions for this shape to work, regardless of time on the training pitch. As a minimum it would be LCB, LWB, CM, ST… but I’d throw L10, and either R10 and RWB in there too depending on where you play Amad.
And we don’t have the ability to move players on because of their bumper contracts.
And therefore don’t have the budget to fund the replacements needed.
It just feels doomed to fail.
And we don’t have the ability to move players on because of their bumper contracts.
And therefore don’t have the budget to fund the replacements needed.
It just feels doomed to fail.
This post is bang on except the Tomas Frank bit. But it was fking obvious. United never do the obvious things like putting round pegs in round holes would be an obvious thing. But no. Not us. The only reason we didnt sign Amorim in the summer was that he didnt fit the system. So what do we do? Spend millions on Ten Haag signings and then sack him 7 games in and expect Amorim to make do. Its so painful.
We need - Davies/Frimpong/Reijndeers/Wirtz/Gjorkerez or Oshimen/ Tah. Sell Rashford, Garnacho, Martinez, Dalot, Bruno if necessary to make it happen.
Very good post, but aside from the quick LCB are any on that wishlist new?
LWB/LB we have needed for years.
CM needs no explanation.
AM we only have Bruno who can pass and press, if he's properly instructed.
We've needed a number 9 since RVP left.
We also need time. Can (for example) Garnacho play wing back? He's never been asked to do it before and it will take time to see if he can. More talented and more established players than him or anybody else in our squad have adapted to new positions with success before. Yet it takes time for Amorin to coach them and see if they get it. You can apply that across much of the squad, especially the youngsters.
Yes,
the easiest explanation to naked eye is
ETH used to send 5 players to attack in a instant.
Amorim keeps 6 players at back. Behind the ball at all times.
To beat ETH you needed to bypass United first press, midfield could be open.
To beat Amorim you need to be more attacking against United as we offer zero threat upfront.
Its visible from naked eye.
Against Arsenal we had 0.03 XG. expect same range in Anfield. The team has regressed massively
Yeah that's concerning for me also, I've always been dubious about back 3/5 systems. There's never really been a successful team who've used it long term (that I know of). Because whatever way you slice most of the time it boils down to playing with 5 defenders. Ajax in the mid 90's were a team who played 3 at the back brilliantly with wingers in the wide areas. So when I'd read Amorim prefers wingers at wingback I was optimistic. But as you say he started off trying attackers there but has now reverted to fullbacks. He's probably did this to stem the flow of goals we're conceding but it hasn't worked (we conceded the most goals in a month in December since 1964). It's also seriously affecting our ability to attack into the bargain. We're conceding a lot of goals from set-pieces and crosses into the box. Which is alarming when you're playing 5 defenders and 3 centrebacks.
I don't know what he does from here, I see the logic in implementing his formation right away and just accepting the growing pains. But those growing pains might well get us drawn into a relegation battle. If he's going to continue with 3 at the back then maybe he needs to at least have only one no10 and play an extra DM. But again we'd then be playing with 5 defenders and 2 defensive midfielders.
What demands are the players making exactly?
As far as most people can see the player for the most part are trying to do as he's asked. It's just not working out as we don't have the personnel suited to his system, which makes sense as this squad was bult to play 4231/433.
Surely he's a good enough coach to adapt to a slightly different system until we have the right players to execute his main system.
I am sorry I have to say this, but a good enough manager would of changed things before common people would start questioning about why isn't the system working.
I don’t watch enough football these days to know, but is this formation even successful at the top level (let alone a relegation battle)? Who plays it well?
No correctly actually, as you've now admitted by saying Ten Hag didn't get his first choices, whether he did or not is of course irrelevant. The fact is his 2nd choices were still his choices. So my initial statement was correct, Ten Hag built the majority of this squad. And I didn't bring him up actually I simply said ''One man'' in reply to your post. You then mentioned Ten Hag first.
Ten Hag wasn't a Scapegoat though. He actually was largely to blame for his own downfall.
Amorim has been here for 6 weeks and inherited a poorly coached squad with it's confidence in the gutter. So I'll reserve judgement on him for a good few months yet.
Its not meant to be 5 at the back though - its meant to be 3 - one central, two covering wide areas. The wing backs are wingers - not full backs. They are as high up in the line as the forward in possession and stretching the pitch - our guys are not doing that yet.
In the last ten years the players have gotten several managers sacked by basically downing tools and not trying. If Amorim discards the way he wants to play after just a few weeks, the players will know that once again they are in charge. If Amorim is committed to a back three, he needs to look his players in the eye and tell them how it’s going to be. Temporarily abandoning his beliefs would be starting off on the wrong foot and is wasting time. Get the players on the practise pitch until they get it. Let them know that anyone who isn’t capable of following instructions will be out of the door. Professionals must be able to adapt to slightly different tactics, and going from a back four to a back three shouldn’t be impossible. Amorim should hold his nerve, if he believes in his ability as a manager. Leadership can be difficult.
Don't see such an issue with the system itself. Also, if you play one winger and one more defensive sided player as WB (playing behind AM who loves to drift wide) you will often end in 4-2-3-1 shape and I think it is the way to go. The problem is obvious... players are shit and on top of that they are obviously starting to doubt the system as a result of recent defeats. Sporting fans mentioned he played one winger as WB which was positive for me as the idea that we will suddenly push out all our wingers and change them for WB is properly insane from the start and it is no go for me if we plan to do it.
In terms of personnel and if you compare this side with that Chelsea Tuchel side which used proper WB's on each side there are so much glaring weaknesses. Best version of James and Chilwell as WB, Thiago Silva spreading balls like a quarterback around the pitch with Rudiger and Azpi on each side. Prime Kante in the middle with Jorginho who controled the tempo. Mount in the form of his life and healthy.
They didn't even suffer with Tino Werner playing upfront because he pressed and run channels like a maniac. And they could stretch you on both wings and upfront with Werner runs. All went to shit once their wingbacks started getting injuries and they bought Lukaku in who wanted to restle with defenders and wasn't interested in running channels so much (sounds familiar heh).. They just lost all their threat and become impotent going forward. Which is how we look atm while being even more disastrous defensively.
I actually think that the formation has a lot of potential with the right personel. Amorim also wants to control the game/press high like pretty much most top teams. Still, going forward and if Amorim gets to summer window I just don't want bunch of wingbacks who are bad defensively. So we have to move them if another coach wants to play back 4 with rebuild number 7 worth half a billion pounds. And we are not sure if there is much room/money for another proper rebuild, let alone two.
In terms of personnel and if you compare this side with that Chelsea Tuchel side which used proper WB's on each side there are so much glaring weaknesses. Best version of James and Chilwell as WB, Thiago Silva spreading balls like a quarterback around the pitch with Rudiger and Azpi on each side. Prime Kante in the middle with Jorginho who controled the tempo. Mount in the form of his life and healthy.
They didn't even suffer with Tino Werner playing upfront because he pressed and run channels like a maniac. And they could stretch you on both wings and upfront with Werner runs. All went to shit once their wingbacks started getting injuries and they bought Lukaku in who wanted to restle with defenders and wasn't interested in running channels so much (sounds familiar heh).. They just lost all their threat and become impotent going forward. Which is how we look atm while being even more disastrous defensively.
I actually think that the formation has a lot of potential with the right personel. Amorim also wants to control the game/press high like pretty much most top teams. Still, going forward and if Amorim gets to summer window I just don't want bunch of wingbacks who are bad defensively. So we have to move them if another coach wants to play back 4 with rebuild number 7 worth half a billion pounds. And we are not sure if there is much room/money for another proper rebuild, let alone two.
Any system can be successful depending in the balance and cohesion of your squad. Your former winger Valencia would suit the 343
The real problem will end up being finances. We will have to sell a lot of players to get the ones we need for 3-4-2-1. Our players a re being paid very well, and they do not increase their values this season. What do we really get for Garnacho, Rashford, Casemiro & Co.
By the way. I have written in the Caf since 2022. When do I get rid of the newbie status? You cannot do a proper discussion when you are limited to a few posts a day.
By the way. I have written in the Caf since 2022. When do I get rid of the newbie status? You cannot do a proper discussion when you are limited to a few posts a day.
Suggesting you didn't bring him up just because you didn't name him is a very childish attempt to shirk responsibility. We both know who you were talking about, come on, at least have the courage to own your convictions rather than trying to weasel around it. As for Ten Hag building the majority of this squad, it simply isn't true, several of our biggest signings were effectively forced on him, but these conversations have been done to death and Murtough himself accepting blame in person is unlikely to sway someone who views Ten Hag as the bogeyman with such zeal, so I'll park it there and let you have the last word you crave on the matter in your reply.
As for the scapegoat comment, you misunderstood what I said. I agree Ten Hag was largely to blame for his own downfall*, his system didn't give us any real control over games. But you're trying to scapegoat him for Amorim's current failures. Can you at least admit that Amorim is to blame for playing the geriatric Casemiro and Eriksen together leading us to get overrun last night?
* He certainly isn't the only reason for the club's downfall though, there are plenty of those.
Justice for Zico1982!
We looked so much better with Maz at RCB and Amad at RWB. I think that he has to at least try Antony there. If one thing is certain, he will put a shift in for 90 minutes.
We must also remember that all the tactical ideas in the world are pointless when players are making fundamental mistakes. Whether you play a back three or a back four is moot when a team can’t defend corners and crosses; when they can’t pass a ball ten yards; when they can’t create a chance. We have reached the point where opponents are deliberately trying to score directly from corners against us. Last night we conceded within four minutes because we couldn’t defend a simple header. It was too easy. Playing one system rather than another won’t change our fortunes in such circumstances. I don’t know how Premier League players can’t defend corners. It’s scandalous.