I think most United fans want him to stick with it, if we think it may work out. I’m included in that but time is running out and I wonder if they come up with an emergency plan to keep us up.
3-4-3 Ain’t it
- Thread starter RedDevilCanuck
- Start date
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran discuss a horrific month of December and a depressing FOUR defeats in a row - the latest coming against Wolves and Newcastle.
They discuss how much blame is on Ruben Amorim and rank our squad against other Premier League teams.
Do we have any chance of avoiding defeat at Anfield?
I dont think he needs to change all of his tactics but he should fine tune some tactics so it can benefit the players at his disposal especially in our forward line.
For example-
Why not play a 3-4-1-2 instead of a wider front line in a 343?
This would allow us to play two forwards whilst a single CAM can focus on providing them some creativity. Its always 2 creative players trying to assist one striker when whoever the striker are not very good.
Why does he even use Zirkzee as a target man in front of 2 AM's?
Why not play Zirkzee as a false 9 like a firminho, with Garnacho like a Mane and Amad like a Salah?
It's like the only tactics we have has to be 100% copied when atleast for the time being lay a strong foundation but make some subtle differences to suit some of your players. Not saying its Zirkzee but it's like Amorim could have the best false 9 in the world at his feet but he would only ever use a target man or even play the false 9 as a target man.
For example-
Why not play a 3-4-1-2 instead of a wider front line in a 343?
This would allow us to play two forwards whilst a single CAM can focus on providing them some creativity. Its always 2 creative players trying to assist one striker when whoever the striker are not very good.
Why does he even use Zirkzee as a target man in front of 2 AM's?
Why not play Zirkzee as a false 9 like a firminho, with Garnacho like a Mane and Amad like a Salah?
It's like the only tactics we have has to be 100% copied when atleast for the time being lay a strong foundation but make some subtle differences to suit some of your players. Not saying its Zirkzee but it's like Amorim could have the best false 9 in the world at his feet but he would only ever use a target man or even play the false 9 as a target man.
Im not sure any formation is it with half of this squad.
Well if you could explain what it is you are actually trying to say then I could make a judgement on whether I disagree with you or not.
How exactly are the players making excuses and blaming the manager?
So it's going as Amorim expected then. I suspect he doesn't think the players are tyring to get him sacked.
Who are the imposters in the squad?
Indeed I agree with that and as much as Ten Hag is to blame for the clusterfeck he left for Amorim to inherit. The new owners and directors should take their share of blame also for allowing the farce to continue not only after the FA Cup final, but after the first few weeks of the season and even allowing it to drag on past the international break where he should have been sacked. When it was clear to every man and his dog but them that Erik wasn't turning it around. United's standards post SAF have never been allowed to slip as low as they did under Ten Hag. As bad as Woodward was he'd have canned ETH last December. Amorim was available during the summer as well so I've no idea why we didn't go for him then.
Almost the entire squad are imposters who aren’t good enough to play for United. It’s very simple what I am saying: Amorim is right to persist with three at the back, the formation he has employed throughout his career hitherto. To abandon it after a few weeks here because supposedly United players can’t do it would be madness. If he scraps his philosophy now, he will need to wait to next season before he implements it, then he will have the same issues trying to teach the players to adjust. Better to get the hard work done immediately, though it’s painful. Then, when he makes his own signings at wing back, they can slot straight into a team that already knows the system.
Of course players can adjust to playing with three central defenders instead of two; teams do it all the time, sometimes even changing formation from one game to the next. It will require work on the training ground, which is where a good communicator like Amorim earns his corn. Three at the back can also be played flexibly, to ease the players into doing it. This squad of weak minded players will grasp the excuse of not being able to do it with both hands, leaving the manager swinging in the breeze. I think Amorim is right to be firm on what he wants from day one.
100%
Defensively the goals conceded recently are set-pieces and individuals having brain farts. Which has nothing to do with formation.
Attacking wise United’s forward line has been woeful for 18 months, it’s not a problem that suddenly appeared when Amorim turned up.
I agree, but right now we need more control in the back and should be trying to win 1-0 matches. If we can get a true LWB, move Mainoo to AM, and get a quicker striker, then we might be good.
Fully agree. We can’t blame formation for how many goals we concede from corners (even directly from corners!) and crosses. This team is awful, that’s the top and bottom of it. They are mentally weak, too. As bad as they are, they shouldn’t be fourteenth just now, but when we concede a goal they look defeated. Amorim has been handed the toughest job in football. I wish him well and hope he can improve the team as the madness at the club continues around him.
No, but it’s gotten worse since he came, both in terms of goals and underlying metrics.
I don’t think any drastic change in system during the winter period was going to work, especially with a tough run of fixtures. If he had rode out until the end of the season playing an adjusted version of 4-2-1-3, everyone would have questioned the point of brining him in.
Agreed. I feel we dont need too much new and look so much better
Apologies, I hope you don't think I was calling you stupid, was on the beers last night that didn't come off right was just trying to make a joke about some of the nonchalantness around here about playing a certain formation no matter what even despite what might be happening in the table. I personally don't think it's the formation, there were so many misplaced passes vs Newcastle, Casemiro missed an open net for Christ's sake. It's like the whole team has the yips.
I think there is still time to play in the managers preferred way, stay up and maybe even find some success in the Europa. Lose to Southampton though, not sure, might be ringing big Sam or Roy Hodgson up.
One thing I noticed at the Newcastle game was that they set up in a similar way some times in possession, and I noticed things they did that helped them, but were things we couldn’t do.
For example, playing out of the press. When we had the ball, they forced us into wide areas at the back, where we opted to try to clear the ball down the line and often turned over the ball.
When they were playing out from the back, they left at least one winger high up the pitch which pinned back one of our wingbacks, usually Dalot. This allowed them to stretch out across defence and switch the ball to the free flank where Dalot wasn’t there to press.
Perhaps something for us to try.
For example, playing out of the press. When we had the ball, they forced us into wide areas at the back, where we opted to try to clear the ball down the line and often turned over the ball.
When they were playing out from the back, they left at least one winger high up the pitch which pinned back one of our wingbacks, usually Dalot. This allowed them to stretch out across defence and switch the ball to the free flank where Dalot wasn’t there to press.
Perhaps something for us to try.
The problem with just saying the players are all useless us that we aren't going to be able to change the whole squad anytime soon. We might be able to get 4 or 5 players in the summer at best.
When people mention individual errors, clearly playing in an unfamiliar system makes these more likely.
Amorim talks of selling his system to players but that will be even harder if we repeatedly get humiliated in it.
There is no doubt in my mind we would be at least a bit better in a 4231 or 433 but I understand amorim was hired on the basis of his work implementing a 343 but for now I think the attack and midfield would function better and it would out less onus on the full backs to do attacking work they aren't capable of.
People talk about four at the back systems not working under ten hag but his tactics were bizarre so an improvement woth this set of players should definitely have been plausible
Say it ain't so!
I don’t understand Amorim doesn’t go back to what he did the first games: Maz RCB and Amad RWB. That worked. Maz RWB doesn’t really work and Amad RAM is less involved then at RWB.
Then play Garnacho RAM so he can play on the right side and drift to the wing. I thought last year Garnacho was a lot better on the right then on the left. And this way Bruno can stay LAM.
Then play Garnacho RAM so he can play on the right side and drift to the wing. I thought last year Garnacho was a lot better on the right then on the left. And this way Bruno can stay LAM.
I wouldn't mind seeing that at the back. Not sure about the Garnacho bit but I'd like you to be right.
100% agree, but I would make another change at the back and that is bench Maguire and Licha. Basically play, Maz-DeLigt-Yoro. Probably better than what we've seen lately and also have an actual attacking player down the RWB as you mentioned in Amad.
Yes, and maybe try Martinez LWB as long as we don’t have someone that can play there. Maybe it works, he can play in midfield and at left back, so maybe LWB could work. He can keep his aggressive play and forward passing there but his height is less of a problem in that position.
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I for one am shocked that 5 training sessions hasn't been enough to implement an entirely new system with a group of players thrown together by a series of managers under an executive team with precisely zero experience running a sports club.
I know we all agreed we wanted a root and branch overhaul but nobody said that would take more than 5 weeks. I also appreciate we said we were willing to tolerate some pain, but I thought 'pain' meant maybe only drawing with vastly inferior sides like Newcastle and Bournemouth, and I didn't realise there'd be funny memes on my social media about our failings, that rival fans might taunt me and that Paddy Power would make jokes about us.
I demand Amorim is sacked with immediate effect and we bring in Mike Bassett. What's wrong with good old 4-4-2 anyway?
I know we all agreed we wanted a root and branch overhaul but nobody said that would take more than 5 weeks. I also appreciate we said we were willing to tolerate some pain, but I thought 'pain' meant maybe only drawing with vastly inferior sides like Newcastle and Bournemouth, and I didn't realise there'd be funny memes on my social media about our failings, that rival fans might taunt me and that Paddy Power would make jokes about us.
I demand Amorim is sacked with immediate effect and we bring in Mike Bassett. What's wrong with good old 4-4-2 anyway?
In what way?
He should atleast use wingers as wide forwards in the front three rather than this set up with dual #10s. Dalot and Mazraoui are more conducive for adding numbers in midfield than providing attacking width.
-------------------------Rasmus--------------------------
----Garnancho----------------------------Amad-----
-------------------------Bruno----------------------------
--------------Mainoo-------Ugarte--------------------
----Martinez-----Deligt--Yoro---------Maz---------
who wants this ?
Same players different set-up:
———————Rasmus——————-
———-Bruno—————Garnacho——
Martinez——Mainoo—-Ugarte—-Amad
——Yoro———De Ligt———Maz———
In what world is Martinez who already comes across as slowish as a CB work as wingback? Thats madness. Guys, we don't have to re-invent the wheel and come up with funny formation ideas. The players need to understand the formation and their roles better and then things will improve on their own.
I don’t think Martinez is the best wingback there is, not at all. But as we can buy no one without selling, I do think he could be better than Dalot or Malacia who play there now. He is aggressive, has a good passing range, can defend against a winger, can play left back and can play in midfield. Maybe worth a try, has to be better than Dalot and Malacia. Keep doing the same thing is not helping as well.
You can play as many formations as you like, when will the penny drop? It is the players. Papering over the cracks will not work anymore as the league has got much better now, with the likes of Forest, Brighton, Brentford and Bournemouth not only good, but better than us.
Can anyone point to a goal we have conceded that can be put down to playing in a 343?
The way i see it, the vast majority of goals are coming from individual mistakes. I really don't think players have lost the ability to pass, tackle, win aerial duels or in the case of Onana, not getting lobbed from corners or moving out of the way of shots coming straight at him (Forest home) because of
Same for Maz hacking down the Bournemouth player in the box, or Bruno getting a red. Is that a 343 issue?
The way i see it, the vast majority of goals are coming from individual mistakes. I really don't think players have lost the ability to pass, tackle, win aerial duels or in the case of Onana, not getting lobbed from corners or moving out of the way of shots coming straight at him (Forest home) because of
Same for Maz hacking down the Bournemouth player in the box, or Bruno getting a red. Is that a 343 issue?
So true
Everybody says they’re willing to be patient, until we lose a couple of matches
Would you acknowledge it's gotten worse as he is playing an extra defender and we're creating less?
Agree. These teams are more than the sum of their parts because they are well coached and understand what their manager wants them to do. They are also fitter and more phyical than us.
I would go as far as saying even Wolves, Ipswich, Everton and Palace have move of a collective unity and identity.
Ten Hag and probably Ole before folded. They abandoned their principles as they felt it was less of a painful process to continue to allow our most talented players to essentially play as individuals in the hope that they would have the moments to win games. That only gets you so far and it is a big reason we only scored 57 and 58 goals in the last to PL seasons. Teams with far less talent managed to score more.
This MUFC team has not been well coached for years. It has been said many times that we are the worst coached team in the league. As to your point, this is why teams who cost much less look much better.
Now Amorim has come in and wants to instill a way of playing, our fans want to revert back to type.
As for formation, it is largely irrelevant. Had Amorim come in and been super disciplined about how he wants his team to press, defend, build up from the back, rotate etc, but in a 433, then I really dont see that it would have been much different.
Lets remember, Bournemouth beat us 3-0 12 months ago at OT. Wolves ran all over us at OT at the start of the 23/24 season and should have been given a late pen to make it 1-1. Spurs beat us in the league at the Tottenham stadium last season, like they did in the League Cup. And Newcastle are one of the form teams of the league right now and we play them without or best midfilders. A lot of reasons why we are not competing right now and i think the 343 is way down the list.
So true
Everybody says they’re willing to be patient, until we lose a couple of matches
Exactly. Everyone agrees now with Ralf Rangnick when he said the team needed "open heart surgery".
Amorim brings out the scalpel and fans start wetting themselves.
That is exactly the point of the wing backs in Amorims system.
It is not for the wingback to be wingers, it is to add to the midfield two.
The point is to stretch the oppositions midfield horizontally in order to create passing lanes in midfield.
Also, Amorim does not want his wing backs playing too high. He wants the opposition full back to be made to push up on the wingback. That then creates space in the channels for the forward and tens to exploit. You play wingers who are not yet coached to play wingback and the risk is they push too high and consume that space. Plus, they offer little going back.
Me thinks that Amorim knows that he needs is his system more that we do, as well as understanding the pro's and cons of the players he has at his disposal.
See here....
and here...
I would encourage all to watch to atleast better understand the intentions of Amorims system before criticising it.
This post is a waste of space on the board. The 3-4-3 will work fine when we have players suited to it. Amorim is the right manager for United. People are just going to have to be patient.
This, also I wanted to add the fans need to adapt, we have our first coach since LVG. We need to snap out of what we were used to under Ole and ETH.
He has a system that completely works, let him at least build it and then make your judgement.
If the choice was continuing playing the previous managers way and finish 8th-10th OR let the current manager try his methods and finish 12th-14th. Then yeah you can say it's worse. It would be marginal and both ways would still be failure.
But the belief has to be that this is just a difficult adapting period...fast forward 12 months* and then we will know the answer.
*By then the current manager will have been sacked (probably) and a totally different one hired with completely different ideas, that need a whole new rebuild! but that is a different topic/thread all together.
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The objective for MUFC is to be competing for the big competitions. We need to get in a place where we can look to win our 21st league title. We have not even been close for a decade. So we are not going to get there by following the Ten Hag "ad hoc" football style where you hope that a player like Bruno, Garnacho or Rashford can pull off some magic.
Systems with well organised, fit and well drilled players win football games these days - as shown by Bournemouth, Brighton, Forest etc. Add some world class players to that and you have a team that can compete for titles. We have had many top quality players (at least they were when they joined) but never a coach who could get them to play in a winning system. So after a while, these top players become unfit, unmotivated and start to look bang average.
7th or 17th this season, it really doesn't matter. We all know the team needs an overhaul (or at the least a pre season where there team learns a modern football system) and this would have been the case with Amorim or under any other top class manager that happened to have played a more traditional 433.
Now we all hoped there would be more of a bounce when Amorim came in, but it has not happened. Is is because of the system? I don't think so because im seeing individual errors costing us more than anything.
And no, he is not getting sacked. I believe the club are going to stay the course with him. Everyone insure and outside the club knows a drastic change is needed. It won't be fixed by a manager coming in and turning it around overnight. This is not like Klopp handing over very good team to Slot who, now some of Klopps signings have bedded in, have kicked on.
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Still esrly days and we've played some good game with this already. This place loves drama.