3-4-3 Ain’t it

[Cheesy]

Can't say I really watched his Sporting team other than on a few occasions in European games, but is there a risk he had a system which worked in very specific circumstances with a fairly specific group of players that he'll struggle to replicate elsewhere? It's not like he'd had sustained success before going to Sporting. And English football's clearly very different to Portuguese football in plenty of ways.

Basically, worst-case scenario fear is he's more AVB at Chelsea than Klopp at Liverpool. But even AVB's Chelsea were more just a bit average rather than a side constantly getting comfortably beaten.

 

[Zico1982]

Justice for Zico1982!

Thanks Jim Beam. But seriously. What does it take? Can you be a newbie for decades?

 

[daveskimufc]

He can play Antony at LWB and Amad at RWB. Might not be ideal but you simply can’t use this formation with defensive full-backs, everything is better than that.

I don't know why this hasn't been tried, Antony I mean ..

Is Antony saying no?
Is he unreliable defending?

 

[Crashoutcassius]

Amorim wants a 3-4-2-1. Right now we are a 5-4-1 with Rasmus in the role of Robinson Crusoe, stranded on a desert island. Amorim wants defense, midfield and attack close to another. That won´t work.
1) MdL , Martinez, Evans, Lindelof and Harry are all too slow to push wide forward. They will be caught, when we lose possession. Only Yoro fits the system. They stand too deep for Amorim.
2) The wingbacks are not providing the goods for the striker. It is a physically extremely demanding role in the system, if you are not standing high, looking for fast transitions and pressing. Amad can do it on the right. Dalot might also be able to do it on the right and Anthony has at least got the skillset for doing it on the left side. Both are not really top for this role though. Mazraoui won´t work here. Shaw is always injured and too slow. Garnacho/Rashford are not able to do the defence part, and both won´t cross into the box. Basically it´s a mess. We need crosses.
3) In the CM we have Ugarte for the role of the breaker and Mainoo to do the ball playing part of the Amorim deal. Ugarte is a fit. Mainoo less so, even though he was pretty good last night. Mainoo lacks pace and physicality to be perfect for playing next to Ugarte. Casemiro is a back up to Ugarte but works only WITH Ugarte as a pure breaking machine. Eriksen will also only work with Ugarte here and is better at 10. Bruno can play here, but like Eriksen he is better suited elsewhere. The CM is a mess.
4) Mount is the best fit for AM, but he is injured again and again. Bruno has the energy, but lacks the discipline and loses the ball way too often. Eriksen could work here, but he lacks the pressing ability, that Amorim wants here. Amad, Garnacho and Rashford are shoehorned in, but it is not the right position. We need a creator who can do the pressing as well, and a Mount kind of player, who is ready to play a lot of games. Right now we can´t play Amorim ball due to lack of pressing and discipline on the ball
5) Rasmus and Zirkzee. Zirkzee is actually a good player in the right system. It is just not this one, and he needs to go. Rasmus would be a perfect fit, if the system worked. As long as it doesn´t, he will look like Robinson Crusoe.

Our biggest problems are pace and discipline on the ball. We are simply not compact enough, and a lot of players do not fit the system. I won´t put it on Amorim, but it should have been obvious, that we were going to have problems with his system. That rises a question, that I really don´t want to ask, but it is the elephant in the room. Should we rather have gone for someone with a system that was better suited for our squad?

If we want to play Amorim ball, it will cost us.

We need at least a world class LWB, a fast LCB, a ball playing CM with pace and pressing resistance, probably two AM who can pass and press, and a 9 to compete with Rasmus.

You could also argue, that we need a new keeper. Onana is a pure confidence player. On form, he is top notch, but when he dips, he REALLY dips.

I am not against Amorim, but with that in mind, I would have preferred someone like Thomas Frank.

This is probably what ashworth thought. I hope we don't see in time that berrada isn't up to the job having never really done it before.

 

[Jim Beam]

Thanks Jim Beam. But seriously. What does it take? Can you be a newbie for decades?

Not a part of higher ups. It will probably help if you post more.. btw I think I had around 250 posts when I got promoted, so if you just post a bit more you will most likely get promoted. So, in theory yeah, if you don't post much you can be newbie for decades.

Now I see you posted that big post that everyone is in agreement with. Hopefully you get noticed.

 

[Mmm-Qatarian]

Can't say I really watched his Sporting team other than on a few occasions in European games, but is there a risk he had a system which worked in very specific circumstances with a fairly specific group of players that he'll struggle to replicate elsewhere? It's not like he'd had sustained success before going to Sporting. And English football's clearly very different to Portuguese football in plenty of ways.

Basically, worst-case scenario fear is he's more AVB at Chelsea than Klopp at Liverpool. But even AVB's Chelsea were more just a bit average rather than a side constantly getting comfortably beaten.

I guess it's quite hard to say either way. I think the sentence I've highlighted, whilst correct, is missing some key context in that he'd not had any sustained success before Sporting because he'd never spent a sustained period of time at a side prior to Sporting.

The table below encapsulates Amorim's managerial experience prior to Manchester United. It's ripped from his Wikipedia page as you might have guessed.

Ruben Amorim Managerial Stats (Pre-Manchester United):

Club	Matches	Wins	Draws	Losses	Win Percentage (%)
Casa Pia	4	3	0	1	75
Braga B	11	8	2	1	72.73
Braga	13	10	1	2	76.92
Sporting CP	231	164	34	33	71
Overall	259	185	37	37	71.43

Now, as mentioned earlier, so far I've not really contradicted anything you've said here. That table does indeed indicate that the only sustained period of success we have to go on is Sporting. The flip side to that is that this was a period of success that was, indeed, sustained for quite some time. To demonstrate that point, let me first compare it to the example you raised - Andre Villas-Boas before he joined Chelsea. (Again, Wikipedia page here for reference)

Andre Villas-Boas Managerial Stats (Pre-Chelsea):

Club	Matches	Wins	Draws	Losses	Win Percentage (%)
Academica	30	11	9	10	36.67
Porto	58	49	5	4	84.48
Overall	88	60	14	14	68.18

I think this table does a fairly good job of demonstrating the difference between the two. The sample size of matches over which Chelsea could judge AVB, whilst not absolutely insignificant, was nowhere near as large. There was, I would argue, a far greater risk there of this being a case of Villas-Boas being in the "right place at the right time" with Porto than Amorim at Sporting, since you only had a year's worth of data to go off as opposed to almost four years. I'd argue that there's a degree to which you can get "lucky" (or indeed unlucky) over a year which is quite unlikely to sustain itself over four.

 

[stevoc]

In the last ten years the players have gotten several managers sacked by basically downing tools and not trying. If Amorim discards the way he wants to play after just a few weeks, the players will know that once again they are in charge. If Amorim is committed to a back three, he needs to look his players in the eye and tell them how it’s going to be. Temporarily abandoning his beliefs would be starting off on the wrong foot and is wasting time. Get the players on the practise pitch until they get it. Let them know that anyone who isn’t capable of following instructions will be out of the door. Professionals must be able to adapt to slightly different tactics, and going from a back four to a back three shouldn’t be impossible. Amorim should hold his nerve, if he believes in his ability as a manager. Leadership can be difficult.

So these players are demanding that the manager abandons his formation?

How do you know this?

 

[stevoc]

Suggesting you didn't bring him up just because you didn't name him is a very childish attempt to shirk responsibility. We both know who you were talking about, come on, at least have the courage to own your convictions rather than trying to weasel around it.

Oh dear.

It isn't mate, I'm not 'weaseling' out of anything. I have previously admitted we are both taking the thread off topic, that's me taking responsibility. I wasn't the one who initially said ''But you started it''. I didn't mention him by name specifically because I didn't want to drag the thread off topic but then it happened anyway.

As for Ten Hag building the majority of this squad, it simply isn't true, several of our biggest signings were effectively forced on him, but these conversations have been done to death and Murtough himself accepting blame in person is unlikely to sway someone who views Ten Hag as the bogeyman with such zeal, so I'll park it there and let you have the last word you crave on the matter in your reply.

It is true though, granted he isn't enitrely responsible for every signing made under his tenure but he did identify the majority of them. Murtaugh and Arnold are not without blame but the manager was the driving force behind our recruitment 2022-2024.

As for the scapegoat comment, you misunderstood what I said. I agree Ten Hag was largely to blame for his own downfall*, his system didn't give us any real control over games. But you're trying to scapegoat him for Amorim's current failures. Can you at least admit that Amorim is to blame for playing the geriatric Casemiro and Eriksen together leading us to get overrun last night? * He certainly isn't the only reason for the club's downfall though, there are plenty of those.

This is a narrative that you've made up mate. If you read my other posts in this thread you wil see I have been critical of Amorim and suggested that his plan to switch to a formation this squad isn't suited to mid-season probably isn't the best idea. I don't have to admit that Amorim is resonsible for his own poor team selections, I've said as much over various threads (including this one) just yesterday after the game.

 

[The Hilton]

Oh dear.

It isn't mate, I'm not 'weaseling' out of anything. I have previously admitted we are both taking the thread off topic, that's me taking responsibility. I wasn't the one who initially said ''But you started it''. I didn't mention him by name specifically because I didn't want to drag the thread off topic but then it happened anyway.



It is true though, granted he isn't enitrely responsible for every signing made under his tenure but he did identify the majority of them. Murtaugh and Arnold are not without blame but the manager was the driving force behind our recruitment 2022-2024.




This is a narrative that you've made up mate. If you read my other posts in this thread you wil see I have been critical of Amorim and suggested that his plan to switch to a formation this squad isn't suited to mid-season probably isn't the best idea. I don't have to admit that Amorim is resonsible for his own poor team selections, I've said as much over various threads (including this one) just yesterday after the game.

As I said, regarding recruitment you get the last word, no matter how inaccurate it may be.

Regarding your last paragraph, it sounds like we're in somewhat violent agreement regarding Amorim's missteps and the squad's suitability to his system. Which makes me wonder why you disputed my post saying so in the first place. Never mind.

 

[wolvored]

I don't know why this hasn't been tried, Antony I mean ..

Is Antony saying no?
Is he unreliable defending?

If any player says no then their wages should be docked. They are an employee of the club and should be doing what they are asked to do on the pitch within reason. Using Antony as an example to play LWB is surely a role he can adapt to. Its not like hes being asked to play in goal.

 

[stevoc]

As I said, regarding recruitment you get the last word, no matter how inaccurate it may be.

Regarding your last paragraph, it sounds like we're in somewhat violent agreement regarding Amorim's missteps and the squad's suitability to his system. Which makes me wonder why you disputed my post saying so in the first place. Never mind.

I didn't though, did I? You said the squad is a mish mash, that doesn't have a lot of attributes necessary for English football and I'd largely agree. I only said it shouldn't be a such a mish mash considering 80% of them were signed in the last 5 windows under the same manager. You'd assume with some sort of plan/style/formation in mind. If you want to attribute the majority of responsibility for that to someone else other than said manager fair enough. But I don't think I'm wrong with my initial point in that the squad shouldn't be in such bad shape considering the amount spent rebuilding it these last 2-3 years. After adding £650m worth of players we shouldn't be sitting in the bottom half of the table as we have been for most of the season.

 

[Ayoba]

I need to watch some Sporting games under Amorim to understand how they made this 3-4-3 work, because right now, its a shit show of a formation that doesnt suit our players.

 

[The Hilton]

I didn't though, did I? You said the squad is a mish mash, that doesn't have a lot of attributes necessary for English football and I'd largely agree. I only said it shouldn't be a such a mish mash considering 80% of them were signed in the last 5 windows under the same manager. You'd assume with some sort of plan/style/formation in mind. If you want to attribute the majority of responsibility for that to someone else other than said manager fair enough. But I don't think I'm wrong with my initial point in that the squad shouldn't be in such bad shape considering the amount spent rebuilding it these last 2-3 years. After adding £650m worth of players we shouldn't be sitting in the bottom half of the table as we have been for most of the season.

To be honest I don't think we've had much of a plan with our recruitment for over a decade, and I agree with you about everything other than your apportionment of blame.

One of our worst investments recently seems to have been Dan Ashworth, who we paid Newcastle to get, he led our recruitment of De Ligt, Mazraoui, and Zirkzee, and then promptly left.

 

[Ayoba]

Interesting -

One thing we've stopped doing is pushing up as a team. Looks like at Sporting, wingbacks and the 3 CBs were quite high up the pitch. We were doing this in some of the earlier games Amorim was in charge, notably against Everton, city and even spurs and Forest. We seem to have completely abandoned this now, possibly due to a lack of confidence.

Another important factor is the CB. At Sporting, their CB was comfortable on the ball and at times stepped into midfield. Now with Maguire in there as our main CB, he's not very mobile or good on the ball, so we end up sitting deep.

I think he needs to go to a back three of:

Maz - Le Ligt - Martinez.

The video also shows how, when Sporting were high up the pitch, the WBs and the two 10's were fluid and often interchanged positions. I don't think our fullbacks can do that (Dalot and Maz), however, Antony and Amad can. Which probably explains why we play better as a team when either of those two have started as WBs.

 

[honirelandboy]

Can we not just get a manager in who can play a good high pressing 4_3_3 formation. LB Martinez RB Dalot CB De Ligt CB Yoro CM Mainoo CM UGarte CM Collyr RW Diallo LW Rashford False 9 Bruno.

That's the team I'd be playing to get the best out of these players. This 3_4_3 is not working and doesn't suit our players. Casemeiro, Eriksen need to go. Hojlund no where near good enough. Try and get a quality midfielder In January.

Still sickens me Liverpool got Gravenbach and McAllister. We should of been all over McAllister after the world cup.

 

[Salus Populi Suprema Lex]

So these players are demanding that the manager abandons his formation?

How do you know this?

No, I’m not saying they are confronting Amorim and demanding he change tactics. However, they are being given excuses just a few weeks into his tenure: “it’s the system that’s the problem.” I don’t buy it. They didn’t play a back three under Ten Hag, but the same players performed badly enough to get him sacked. Playing a back three isn’t asking the players to re-invent the wheel; it shouldn’t be beyond professionals. Plenty of teams have done it before; some of them will play that way for their country. United squads for the past ten years have used player power to force managers out. It has to stop. Playing a slightly different formation shouldn’t cause a complete collapse at this level, and Amorim has every right to demand they get it right.

 

[Bello Giacomo]

I keep seeing "rebuild" for players fit Amorim formation. How much money can United spend in January with PL financial restrictions? How much in summer? (I don't no).

Also, some say make money from selling, but I don't think this generate much. Very few teams can afford Rashford wages, and any that do will demand low transfer fee to accommodate. Garnacho may have buyers, as Bruno, maybe £80m for both. The rest may make £20m each - may seem OK, but what you replace with?

Do you trust SJR to oversee good rebuild? Each time you spend money team gets worse.

 

[PieCrust]

The club made the decision to hire Amorim and his system, I'm sure knowing very well we only had a few players that fit. Amorim knew this as well. It's going to be a bumpy ride until the squad is shaped to fit the system, but that's what we signed up for. Buckle up.

 

[Rex Banner]

Interesting -

One thing we've stopped doing is pushing up as a team. Looks like at Sporting, wingbacks and the 3 CBs were quite high up the pitch. We were doing this in some of the earlier games Amorim was in charge, notably against Everton, city and even spurs and Forest. We seem to have completely abandoned this now, possibly due to a lack of confidence.

Another important factor is the CB. At Sporting, their CB was comfortable on the ball and at times stepped into midfield. Now with Maguire in there as our main CB, he's not very mobile or good on the ball, so we end up sitting deep.

I think he needs to go to a back three of:

Maz - Le Ligt - Martinez.

The video also shows how, when Sporting were high up the pitch, the WBs and the two 10's were fluid and often interchanged positions. I don't think our fullbacks can do that (Dalot and Maz), however, Antony and Amad can. Which probably explains why we play better as a team when either of those two have started as WBs.

We definitely have dropped deeper over the last few games, but I don't think De Ligt would do any better in that role than Maguire. Both are immobile, but De Ligt is worse on the ball than Maguire imo.

Maybe we could play Martinez there? He's the only one of our centre backs who has that ability to push forward.

 

[stevoc]

To be honest I don't think we've had much of a plan with our recruitment for over a decade, and I agree with you about everything other than your apportionment of blame.

One of our worst investments recently seems to have been Dan Ashworth, who we paid Newcastle to get, he led our recruitment of De Ligt, Mazraoui, and Zirkzee, and then promptly left.

The club hasn't had a plan beyond letting the managers do pretty much whatever they wanted. This worked with SAF as he was here long term, but obviously didn't work when we chopped and changed between different style of managers allowing each one (especially LVG) to basically rip up the squad and then recruit whoever they wanted based on their style. Ironically under Ole we'd only just managed to get rid of most of the mish mash of a squad we'd accumulated as a result of Moyes/Van Gaal and Jose eras. And then we did it all again after hiring Ten Hag.

Ashworth was a farce, I've no idea what the club were thinking there.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

The club made the decision to hire Amorim and his system, I'm sure knowing very well we only had a few players that fit. Amorim knew this as well. It's going to be a bumpy ride until the squad is shaped to fit the system, but that's what we signed up for. Buckle up.

Who would that be? Wilcox or Berrada?

 

[stevoc]

No, I’m not saying they are confronting Amorim and demanding he change tactics. However, they are being given excuses just a few weeks into his tenure: “it’s the system that’s the problem.” I don’t buy it. They didn’t play a back three under Ten Hag, but the same players performed badly enough to get him sacked. Playing a back three isn’t asking the players to re-invent the wheel; it shouldn’t be beyond professionals. Plenty of teams have done it before; some of them will play that way for their country. United squads for the past ten years have used player power to force managers out. It has to stop. Playing a slightly different formation shouldn’t cause a complete collapse at this level, and Amorim has every right to demand they get it right.

You keep saying stuff this, as if the players all woke up one day and decided to start playing badly in an effort to get the manager sacked. Why would all these different professionals, across 3-4 different squads over the span of a decade choose to hamper their own careers and prospects of winning things to purposely get managers sacked?

You don't buy that players might have a hard time adapting to a new formation/system mid-season. But you do buy that players at one particular club over 12 years for some inexplicable reason choose to continually sabotage their own careers to spite whoever the current managers happens to be?

How likely is that really mate if you think about it objectively?

 

[PieCrust]

Who would that be? Wilcox or Berrada?

I'm sure they all knew. How could they not? Might be a contributing factor why Ashworth is gone, maybe he wasn't onboard.

 

[soapythecat]

I do wonder if after heavy defeats in the next 2 games (inevitable), that the management will insist on reverting to a back 4 formation and try and grind out survival. If we lose to Southampton the we are almost bottom 3 and any remaining confidence in the players will be beyond repair.
This current system may never work but clearly needs a pre season and time on training ground which we aren’t getting. We have the coaching staff to assist with implementing a back 4 again.

 

[The Hilton]

The club hasn't had a plan beyond letting the managers do pretty much whatever they wanted. This worked with SAF as he was here long term, but obviously didn't work when we chopped and changed between different style of managers allowing each one (especially LVG) to basically rip up the squad and then recruit whoever they wanted based on their style. Ironically under Ole we'd only just managed to get rid of most of the mish mash of a squad we'd accumulated as a result of Moyes/Van Gaal and Jose eras. And then we did it all again after hiring Ten Hag.

Ashworth was a farce, I've no idea what the club were thinking there.

That's true, but it hasn't just been managers either, there are multiple examples we know of where Woodward and later Murtough were effectively playing football manager. It's been one mess after the other.

 

[Salus Populi Suprema Lex]

You keep saying stuff this, as if the players all woke up one day and decided to start playing badly in an effort to get the manager sacked. Why would all these different professionals, across 3-4 different squads over the span of a decade choose to hamper their own careers and prospects of winning things to purposely get managers sacked?

You don't buy that players might have a hard time adapting to a new formation/system mid-season. But you do buy that players at one particular club over 12 years for some inexplicable reason choose to continually sabotage their own careers to spite whoever the current managers happens to be?

How likely is that really mate if you think about it objectively?

How likely is it that this United squad will hide when things get tough? Very likely. Some of these players have been here quite a while and have done it before. I didn’t say they will deliberately play badly, rather they will find excuses for poor performances and let the manager take all the blame, as has happened before. Many of them don’t h seem to have the mental strength required to play for United. It’s too much for them. They will sulk when they aren’t happy, rather than fight to put things rate. Rashford is evidence of that: 300K per week and doesn’t even try. He can no longer be played. He certainly isn’t alone. This terrible attitude has been seen several times over a number of years.

It might take time to adapt to playing three at the back. No issue there. That doesn’t mean it’s impossible and the manager should abandon how he wants to play after a few weeks. I find that absurd. Professional athletes have to adapt in all sports. Formations don’t account for conceding so many goals at set pieces or switching off at crosses, for example. We mustn’t over-analyse everything and so get lost in the wood for the trees. Playing three at the back doesn’t excuse what we are seeing just now. Reverting to a back four won’t drastically change anything. We played that way with Ten Hag and results and performances deteriorated until he was sacked. The problems go far beyond whether or not we use an extra centre back.

 

[ClassOf'99]

After a few games now, I have a better idea of how we I think we should line up in the 343 formation.

ONANA - A bad month but aug to Nov he was good
RCB MAZ- pace at the back has worked better here than when at wb
CB DE LIGT
LCB YORO- wrong side for him but start over Maguire who's been ok
RWB AMAD - wants to attack, hasn't been as effective since switch to RAMF
CM UGARTE
CM KOBBIE
LWB a left footer! Dalot killing all the attacks that side
LAMF GARNACHO needs to stay inside closer to hoijlund
RAMF BRUNO
ST HOJLUND

There are massive squad inefficiencies that are causing problems with the system and why it's not working, but could work very very well with a few tweaks from the bolded.

Onana - Is a confidence player and needs confidence in his defenders which hasn't been happening and he hasn't been helping himself.

But he should be playing the long balls out to the left and right side to spread the play and the opposition, no ball should be going straight down the middle the system isn't built for that kind of long ball.

RCB, RWB, RAMF - This side is almost perfect if it's Maz at RCB to cover the sides with pace, Amad to play the RWB role perfectly, but you need a RAMF that inverts and also goes wide without leaving the right side so balls into box and box interplay is possible. I don't have trust in Bruno to play neat until the right pass becomes available.

CB - Any of our CBs can play the cental role but this suits Maguire the best as he likes to venture and has an eye for a pass, this will eventually be Yoros role I imagine.

LCB, LWB, LAMF - This is where the real mess is, Martinez and Dalot cannot play together as Dalot is clueless on how to attack and defend on the right side. Martinez is having a terrible season so it's last chance saloon for him, I'm hoping a good balanced LWB can help him, Nuno Mendez would be perfect. But all this won't work if we don't have a LAMF that can operate in the same manner as I described for the RAMF, Garnacho is too selfish and undisciplined for the role.

ST - Hojlund can and probably will work very well if we can fix LWB & the 2 attacking positions but if not we will need an experienced #9 for him to learn off.

CM - Ugarte and Mainoo fit the system it just needs to click for them and we will also need to find appropriate cover for them as Case & Eriksen are not it.

Priority signings:
LWB
LAMF
RAMF* (Bruno dependent)
Striker (Hojlund & service dependent)
Back up keeper (Onana cannot be fully trusted)
Back up CMs
LCB

All I will say is the system can and will work very well with the right personal and instructions, I trust Amorim can make it work but not with this current squad. Give him time to correct the EtH & Murtough mess before calling for his head

 

[stevoc]

That's true, but it hasn't just been managers either, there are multiple examples we know of where Woodward and later Murtough were effectively playing football manager. It's been one mess after the other.

Well yes to be fair Woodward in particular at times decided he was head of recruitment.

 

[stevoc]

How likely is it that this United squad will hide when things get tough? Very likely. Some of these players have been here quite a while and have done it before. I didn’t say they will deliberately play badly, rather they will find excuses for poor performances and let the manager take all the blame, as has happened before. Many of them don’t h seem to have the mental strength required to play for United. It’s too much for them. They will sulk when they aren’t happy, rather than fight to put things rate. Rashford is evidence of that: 300K per week and doesn’t even try. He can no longer be played. He certainly isn’t alone. This terrible attitude has been seen several times over a number of years.

It might take time to adapt to playing three at the back. No issue there. That doesn’t mean it’s impossible and the manager should abandon how he wants to play after a few weeks. I find that absurd. Professional athletes have to adapt in all sports. Formations don’t account for conceding so many goals at set pieces or switching off at crosses, for example. We mustn’t over-analyse everything and so get lost in the wood for the trees. Playing three at the back doesn’t excuse what we are seeing just now. Reverting to a back four won’t drastically change anything. We played that way with Ten Hag and results and performances deteriorated until he was sacked. The problems go far beyond whether or not we use an extra centre back.

Rashford, Lindelof, Shaw, Maguire, Dalot and Bruno. 6 players?

What do you mean they will find excuses for poor perfromances and let managers take the blame? Through what medium are they doing this?

And to be fair none of the managers so far seem to have had the mental strength to manage United. Quite a few of them ended up blaming the players for their own failings, so maybe that's where this culture is coming from.

 

[Salus Populi Suprema Lex]

Rashford, Lindelof, Shaw, Maguire, Dalot and Bruno. 6 players?

What do you mean they will find excuses for poor perfromances and let managers take the blame? Through what medium are they doing this?

And to be fair none of the managers so far seem to have had the mental strength to manage United. Quite a few of them ended up blaming the players for their own failings, so maybe that's where this culture is coming from.

Perhaps we will just have to agree to disagree here. If Amorim is convinced his system is correct, I hope he backs himself to make it work. He did say there would be short term pain as the players adjusted to his instructions, and we are certainly seeing that just now. However, abandoning his beliefs after a few weeks because the players apparently cannot play with three central defenders would, I think, be unwise. It would undermine him very early on and also leave him playing a style he doesn’t want. He would need to persist with a back four until he could sign new players, which effectively means writing off his first season. That’s a lot of time wasted before starting work on how he actually wants to play. Better to endure the pain of adjusting now, establishing his formation and style from the off, in my humble opinion. Then, when he signs his own players, they slot straight in. I also fear the imposters in this squad would latch on to the excuse that they can’t play three at the back. Lots of other teams seem able to use different formations for different circumstances or when a new manager arrives.

The board must take their share of the blame for creating this situation. They allowed Ten Hag to start the season, only to sack him after a couple of months. Amorim has been placed in a terrible position. Ultimately he is charge and he must work with the players to make them follow his instructions. If he is certain his ideas are for the best, see it through despite the pain.

 

[gerdm07]

I think we have been playing more of a 5-1-3-1 lately and we are giving up more goals. Amorim started with 2 DMs and now usually plays with just one. He needs to go back to 5-2-2-1 and have the DMs stay home for the most part. This should be Ugarte and Mainoo. Also, we were much better with Maz as a CB and Amad as a wing back. I would start something like this

Amad...Maz...Maguire...Yoro...Dalot
................Ugarte....Mainoo
.........Bruno....................Eriksen
....................Hojlund

In January buy another DM and striker (do not have to be really expensive). This will allow Mainoo to play further up. If Malacia and Shaw do not look ready soon, buy a LWB. Alternatively, train Garnacho as LWB and give it a go. Can't be any worse than what we've seen.

 

[Fahad Jawaid]

Eventually when you think of it from a simplistic POV, we have one more CB playing instead of forward, then we are also shoe horning another CAM (Sometimes Eriksen/Mount) alongside Bruno instead of another winger who can take players on. Resulting in our team looking toothless and having less players who can take players on (currently only Amad). The solution to our issues is to play Antony/Garnacho LWB and Amad RWB and play Bruno and Rashford/Garnacho behind Holjlund. This will have at least two/three players capable of taking players on which will at the very least result in entertaining matches and us scoring some goals.

 

[JE-365]

In Sporting last season and this season, Amorim’s wingbacks were originally wingers. At United, this formation became less creative and lack of width because we played more defensive mind players and rely on inverted full backs who have no pace, no creativity, and no dribbling ability to play wingbacks. Even if we move Amad back to wingback, we’ll reduce the creativity of the no 10 because the other options are average. I’m sick and tired of us playing this formation with 2 inverted full back as our wingbacks.

 

[Escobar]

I think we have been playing more of a 5-1-3-1 lately and we are giving up more goals. Amorim started with 2 DMs and now usually plays with just one. He needs to go back to 5-2-2-1 and have the DMs stay home for the most part. This should be Ugarte and Mainoo. Also, we were much better with Maz as a CB and Amad as a wing back. I would start something like this

Amad...Maz...Maguire...Yoro...Dalot
................Ugarte....Mainoo
.........Bruno....................Eriksen
....................Hojlund

In January buy another DM and striker (do not have to be really expensive). This will allow Mainoo to play further up. If Malacia and Shaw do not look ready soon, buy a LWB. Alternatively, train Garnacho as LWB and give it a go. Can't be any worse than what we've seen.

Your lineup has zero pace and the front three will not score in donkey years

 

[MadDogg]

In the last ten years the players have gotten several managers sacked by basically downing tools and not trying. If Amorim discards the way he wants to play after just a few weeks, the players will know that once again they are in charge. If Amorim is committed to a back three, he needs to look his players in the eye and tell them how it’s going to be. Temporarily abandoning his beliefs would be starting off on the wrong foot and is wasting time. Get the players on the practise pitch until they get it. Let them know that anyone who isn’t capable of following instructions will be out of the door. Professionals must be able to adapt to slightly different tactics, and going from a back four to a back three shouldn’t be impossible. Amorim should hold his nerve, if he believes in his ability as a manager. Leadership can be difficult.

Ole is the only manager that has cause for saying he got sacked by players downing tools (and Rangnick as an interim in the same season obviously). Every other manager created the situation that ended their times here and have no one to blame but themselves. Even Ole is debatable as he'd obviously taken us as far as he could and ultimately wasn't going to be good enough, so sticking with mediocrity will always drag everyone down after a while.

Actually, Moyes has a claim of it as well, which goes to show that even the best dressing rooms will ultimately go downhill if someone who is clearly incompetent is in charge. But LVG, Mourinho and ETH can't blame anyone but themselves.

What we are seeing under Amorim now is mostly due to the unbelievably bad job that ETH did since the start of last season. He basically set the entire team up to fail, exposing players all over the park and destroying the confidence and self-belief of the entire squad. Combine that with playing (and presumably training) a style that is basically the exact opposite of what we should be doing, along with his poor transfer record, and we were never going to be up for a huge improvement under a new manager. Certainly hoped for better than what we've seen so far of course, but it was always going to take some time to turn things around properly. Plus of course Amorim has barely had a proper training session since he got here, and we've had quite a difficult run of fixtures. The last two or three games I think Amorim has made some mistakes, but up until then the performances and results were about what should have been expected.

 

[Salus Populi Suprema Lex]

Ole is the only manager that has cause for saying he got sacked by players downing tools (and Rangnick as an interim in the same season obviously). Every other manager created the situation that ended their times here and have no one to blame but themselves. Even Ole is debatable as he'd obviously taken us as far as he could and ultimately wasn't going to be good enough, so sticking with mediocrity will always drag everyone down after a while.

Actually, Moyes has a claim of it as well, which goes to show that even the best dressing rooms will ultimately go downhill if someone who is clearly incompetent is in charge. But LVG, Mourinho and ETH can't blame anyone but themselves.

What we are seeing under Amorim now is mostly due to the unbelievably bad job that ETH did since the start of last season. He basically set the entire team up to fail, exposing players all over the park and destroying the confidence and self-belief of the entire squad. Combine that with playing (and presumably training) a style that is basically the exact opposite of what we should be doing, along with his poor transfer record, and we were never going to be up for a huge improvement under a new manager. Certainly hoped for better than what we've seen so far of course, but it was always going to take some time to turn things around properly. Plus of course Amorim has barely had a proper training session since he got here, and we've had quite a difficult run of fixtures. The last two or three games I think Amorim has made some mistakes, but up until then the performances and results were about what should have been expected.

Agreed regarding Ten Hag, and let’s not forget the board that allowed him to continue after winning the cup gave him £200 million in the summer, only to sack him a couple of months into the new season. Amorim has been thrown into the worst possible situation, due to yet more board incompetence. We seem to get every big decision wrong then have to waste time and money trying to put it right. I hate to say it, but look at the way Liverpool managed the transition between Klopp and Slot. That’s a board that knows what it is doing.

 

[MadDogg]

Interesting -

One thing we've stopped doing is pushing up as a team. Looks like at Sporting, wingbacks and the 3 CBs were quite high up the pitch. We were doing this in some of the earlier games Amorim was in charge, notably against Everton, city and even spurs and Forest. We seem to have completely abandoned this now, possibly due to a lack of confidence.

Another important factor is the CB. At Sporting, their CB was comfortable on the ball and at times stepped into midfield. Now with Maguire in there as our main CB, he's not very mobile or good on the ball, so we end up sitting deep.

I think he needs to go to a back three of:

Maz - Le Ligt - Martinez.

The video also shows how, when Sporting were high up the pitch, the WBs and the two 10's were fluid and often interchanged positions. I don't think our fullbacks can do that (Dalot and Maz), however, Antony and Amad can. Which probably explains why we play better as a team when either of those two have started as WBs.

Agree with all this. While we've obviously had big individual mistakes at times in the games, the main problem I'm seeing for the entire 90 is our fullbacks not providing enough. It upsets the entire balance and shape of the team, which has a knock-on effect of our attack not functioning, build-up not working so well and the opposition being much more comfortable so they then find it easier to attack.

Considering Amorim seems to prefer wingbacks on their opposite foot, we seem to have three main options to get a more attacking player in that role. Antony at RWB. Amad at RWB (with Garnacho probably replacing him at #10). Or Garnacho at LWB. Antony is my preferred option so far, considering there's now been three or so games where he's come on in that position late in games and done quite well and his combination with Amad has been promising. I guess we could even do both Antony and Garnacho on either side, but that might be too much and I'm not as confident in Garnacho doing the defensive work. I'd still like to see it against a weaker team though and if it works then it could be an option going forward.

Mazroui's form has plummeted since being moved out to the wingback role. He was great at either fullback or RCB, but doesn't seem to suit the RWB. Maybe the timing is coincidence and he was about to start dropping in form anyway, but looking at his skills and abilities he does look more suited to RCB (in the same way as Shaw looks more suited to LCB than LWB). With Martinez being very poor lately, he'd be the one I'm dropping with Yoro and Mazraoui playing the wider roles (one of them being on the left isn't ideal, but I think they'll be fine) and De Ligt and Maguire battling for the spot in the middle.

--------------------------Onana--------------------------
-----------Yoro-------De Ligt------Mazraoui-----
--Antony------Ugarte------Mainoo------Dalot--
----------------Amad--------------Bruno---------------
-------------------------Hojlund-------------------------

A bit more attacking threat with Antony, a bit more speed in the backline with both Mazraoui and Yoro. Mainoo and Bruno can interchange, or we can also drop Mainoo and play Garnacho as a #10. It's not ideal, but in theory I think that team will perform a bit better until we can bring in a couple of specialist players for the wingback roles in particular.

 

[gulli_G]

Agree with all this. While we've obviously had big individual mistakes at times in the games, the main problem I'm seeing for the entire 90 is our fullbacks not providing enough. It upsets the entire balance and shape of the team, which has a knock-on effect of our attack not functioning, build-up not working so well and the opposition being much more comfortable so they then find it easier to attack.

Considering Amorim seems to prefer wingbacks on their opposite foot, we seem to have three main options to get a more attacking player in that role. Antony at RWB. Amad at RWB (with Garnacho probably replacing him at #10). Or Garnacho at LWB. Antony is my preferred option so far, considering there's now been three or so games where he's come on in that position late in games and done quite well and his combination with Amad has been promising. I guess we could even do both Antony and Garnacho on either side, but that might be too much and I'm not as confident in Garnacho doing the defensive work. I'd still like to see it against a weaker team though and if it works then it could be an option going forward.

Mazroui's form has plummeted since being moved out to the wingback role. He was great at either fullback or RCB, but doesn't seem to suit the RWB. Maybe the timing is coincidence and he was about to start dropping in form anyway, but looking at his skills and abilities he does look more suited to RCB (in the same way as Shaw looks more suited to LCB than LWB). With Martinez being very poor lately, he'd be the one I'm dropping with Yoro and Mazraoui playing the wider roles (one of them being on the left isn't ideal, but I think they'll be fine) and De Ligt and Maguire battling for the spot in the middle.

--------------------------Onana--------------------------
-----------Yoro-------De Ligt------Mazraoui-----
--Antony------Ugarte------Mainoo------Dalot--
----------------Amad--------------Bruno---------------
-------------------------Hojlund-------------------------

A bit more attacking threat with Antony, a bit more speed in the backline with both Mazraoui and Yoro. Mainoo and Bruno can interchange, or we can also drop Mainoo and play Garnacho as a #10. It's not ideal, but in theory I think that team will perform a bit better until we can bring in a couple of specialist players for the wingback roles in particular.

That left side is non existent, they will just double mark our right side. Like last few matches, untill we get an attacking LWB or at least a 10 that can drive and dribble we are lopsided.

 

[Martinez4midfield]

I do wonder if after heavy defeats in the next 2 games (inevitable), that the management will insist on reverting to a back 4 formation and try and grind out survival. If we lose to Southampton the we are almost bottom 3 and any remaining confidence in the players will be beyond repair.
This current system may never work but clearly needs a pre season and time on training ground which we aren’t getting. We have the coaching staff to assist with implementing a back 4 again.

Don't be stupid win/loss/draw doesn't matter. Only 343 according to the cafe.

 

[MadDogg]

That left side is non existent, they will just double mark our right side. Like last few matches, untill we get an attacking RWB or at least a 10 that can drive and dribble we are lopsided.

Agreed, which is why I do think LWB (which is what I presume you meant) is our biggest priority in January. But until then we have to make do with what we've got and I'm not sure how we could get more balance. Garnacho instead of Mainoo may end up being needed for that extra pace and drive in the attack, at least until we get that LWB anyway.