It looks worse and worse the more we are playing it. We are no threat at all.
3-4-3 Ain’t it
- Thread starter RedDevilCanuck
- Start date
So would you say we need top players to play there?
I know you're trying to pin Amorim's terrible team selection on Ten Hag, but one man didn't assemble this squad.
He's got a hand in it, but most of our transfer failings under him were due to Murtough, who regularly failed to get his first choice targets and brought in poor second choices. The signing of probably our worst player, Zirkzee, was a Dan Ashworth's brainchild.
This system relies on quality in the wing-backs position. We have none. Therefore this system shouldn’t be used until we have the required quality of players necessary to make it work.
Amorim is going to have to be flexible or risk his job.
Amorim is going to have to be flexible or risk his job.
Neither Moses or Alonso were top players in my opinion. Above average, flawed in many ways but provided the 1-2 things at a good level for that system needed to work.
LVG was too boring, with zombie passing, Mourinho was onto something but he also pissed everyone off, Ole was childish with just counter attacks, which the better teams used against us and battered, Ragnick seriously pissed everyone off so it didnt really matter what we did, and ETH tactics left us wide open week after week, facing 20+ shots a game.
One things for sure having two actual fullbacks as wingbacks definitely ain’t the answer. We offer absolutely nothing going forward, the fact we’ve yet to score a goal from open play while Dalot and Maz have started as wing backs just hammers that point home. Either put Amad back at RWB or play Antony there but we simply cannot persist with the current set up.
Mate Ten Hag was clearly the driving force behind our transfers since 2022. Or do you think Murtaugh was a big fan of Eredivisie and Ajax players?
Who identified these targets?
Dejong, Martinez, Timber, Eriksen, Weighorst, Malacia, Onana, Deligt, Mazraoui
Behave.
Well whatever we need for this system at Wingback isn't in this squad currently.
Cannot think of another formation that fits our players less! We effectively play a 5 atb right now with zero attacking threat. Dalot on the lwb is honestly moronic. He was only every good as lb cause he came infield, he cannot run the channel!! What is amorim doing?!
We only have one player who can play the cm position in ugarte. Only one who I'd trust in the no 10 in amad and I'm not too sure about him either!) bar the always injured mount. Other than yoro none of our defenders can play a high line or play acover the spaces.
We effectively have no capable forward but I don't put that to recruitment, just our rubbish players. Same goes for the goalkeeping position...
It's absolutely miserable!
We only have one player who can play the cm position in ugarte. Only one who I'd trust in the no 10 in amad and I'm not too sure about him either!) bar the always injured mount. Other than yoro none of our defenders can play a high line or play acover the spaces.
We effectively have no capable forward but I don't put that to recruitment, just our rubbish players. Same goes for the goalkeeping position...
It's absolutely miserable!
I don’t think a 442 or a 451 or any other formation is going to change the fact we can’t score goals and we consistently let in schoolboy error goals over and over.
We were scoring enough goals under Ruud. Granted we played terrible sides.
Just posted this in the other thread, but this summer we had 2 players that actually would've been viable in this system.
Alvaro Fernandez we sold him to Benfica.
https://fbref.com/en/players/33a68b9b/scout/365_m2/Alvaro-Carreras-Scouting-Report
Look at his profile, that's ideal full back profile for this system going forward.
On top of that actually, I'd probably say Pellistri would've been a useful player as a RWB. We had one of the few right footed, right sided wingers and he probably would've seen some minutes here in this system.
That was our version of Moses and Alonso, even if they weren't as good but could've made this system more viable.
4-3-3 got this team to an 8th place finish last season.
4-3-3 got them to 10th)?) this season before EtH was sacked.
3-4-3 has them in 14th
Not sure why there is such a cry to go back to 4 at the back, both setups have been shite.
4-3-3 got them to 10th)?) this season before EtH was sacked.
3-4-3 has them in 14th
Not sure why there is such a cry to go back to 4 at the back, both setups have been shite.
At this point it isn’t even 3-4-3. That’s when you know the players aren’t suited for it.
It only ever looked like 3-4-3 when Amad played as the RWB and has fallen off a cliff since Rashford was dropped 3 weeks ago.
It only ever looked like 3-4-3 when Amad played as the RWB and has fallen off a cliff since Rashford was dropped 3 weeks ago.
Yeah letting Alvaro go was a mistake even before the switch to 343 with Shaw and Malacias injury records.
Wingback is there to stop the cross. 3 CBs are there to clear the cross.
Neither are doing their job. Not the formation to blame when players are standing in the spot to do something about it but are either too lazy or too inept to do their job
Neither are doing their job. Not the formation to blame when players are standing in the spot to do something about it but are either too lazy or too inept to do their job
At this point the question is the risk of relegation, if we can be safe from that then we should persist with the formation. If we can't then we need to change it. The decision needs to be made now and not when it's too late.
4141 got us 8th and 10th or whatever it was
4231 got us 3rd, a cup, another final, a European quarter, an elite looking Casemiro and Martinez, a hyper creative Bruno, and 30 goal scoring rashford.
It really does my head in when people pretend that there wasn’t a massive systematic change between ETH system in season 1, and the 18 months that followed.
Had he had stuck with the season 1 principles, traditional overlapping FBs, mid-block defence, and counter centred attacking, rather than the kamikaze stuff he tried to implement… we would have finished far better in the subsequent seasons.
This squad was built for 4231… ETH tried to change that too quickly. Amorim is doing the exact same thing.
He was an influence for sure, but he regularly failed to get his first choice players, and even with the ones he did want, like Antony, the extortionate price we paid was entirely down to Murtough.
He wanted Timber, and we got Martinez, he wanted De Jong, and instead we're saddled with a geriatric Casemiro on an obscene contract, he wanted Kane, but we spent a similar amount on young unproven Hojland.
There can be multiple weak links in a chain, United's failings aren't so simplistic as to be entirely down to one person.
I personally don't think top players are needed. Reliable players of good quality would be just fine as long as they come at a reasonable price. The higher the price the more potential should be there but for a good price, I wouldn't be too picky to be perfectly honest. I'd take his Spanish guy we had on loan a couple of month ago for example. Who is now at Spurs...
Erik ten Hag did so many things wrong, however it is super boring seeing these same lazy arguments being made the whole time and used as the reason why Amorim is now struggling.
Other than that, I believe apart from Mazraoui, De Ligt, Onana, Diallo (who have only been here shortly), all our players are playing far worse than they have before/are capable of.
They have all showed they can play much better and all seem to have regressed. That is more than just bad recruitment.
They are shot on confidence, out of form, maybe not fit and/or the tactics don't suit them. Lack of belief I'd say as well.
The formation becomes less relevant when players don’t mark in the box, or can’t control a ball or are completely devoid of pace, athleticism or intensity or can’t finish a chance.
We’ve recruited dreadfully for years and we’re still on our way to rock bottom. At some point we’ll turn it round but not holding my breath.
We’ve recruited dreadfully for years and we’re still on our way to rock bottom. At some point we’ll turn it round but not holding my breath.
It is a lazy argument, and frustratingly it's from the very same people who claimed that the players were good and that all we needed was to bring in a better coach to fix things. Now we've done that very thing, but are still in the doldrums, it's a scramble to find another simple solution, hence the thread about changing the formation. Unfortunately this squad won't excel in any formation, there isn't enough pace, strength, fitness, or footballing ability for us to do anything well. Given our lack of available funds, I think we need to ape Spurs' recent recruitment strategy and bring in players for their physicality, and look to add more finesse and ability once we've got a stable base.
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Even if he is insisting to keep playing 3 at back, can we not go with 2 lads upfront. Drop this 2 inside forwards.
It's offering us nothing. Hojlund isolated up top all time and struggles to hold ball up anyways. He will run for you.
Can we not just get 2 CF in and play off them.
It's offering us nothing. Hojlund isolated up top all time and struggles to hold ball up anyways. He will run for you.
Can we not just get 2 CF in and play off them.
Here we go again. We hire another manager on the back of their success with a specific style of play, it doesn't immediately result in 3 points every week, and we start hounding them to go back to 4 at the back conservative zombie football.
Until we are prepared to back a style and persist with it we're going nowhere but down.
Until we are prepared to back a style and persist with it we're going nowhere but down.
The lack of physicality in this team is a huge problem, we get bullied by most teams in the league, Isak and Joelinton brushing our players aside like they’re not even there.
No matter what formation we play, we have already given up the midfield before a ball is kicked.
Spot on I think. We have far from tbe best squad in the league, and I must say the standard in the PL is quite great. All teams have good players and dangerous players.
But it is too easy to say all of our players are crap.. it is however clear that almost none of them play to the standard they could and should.
And for most, unfortunately, I can't see them turning it around soon.
You say this as if this 3/5 at the back is some offensive exciting total voetbal.
It doesn't suit the squad, it will lead us into a relegation battle. When Amorim gets his own specialist players, we could try it.
Yeah he was an influence alright.
He wanted Antony over a month before we signed him. His insistance on waiting on DeJong when he obviously wasn't coming is what drove Antonys price up when we had to scramble late in the window. He wanted Martinez and/or Timber, we also signed Casemiro as a result of his DeJong nonsense. Yeah he wanted Kane and it was Murtaughs fault we didn't get him had nothing to do with Levy or the fee Spur wanted
Listen mate let's no derail this thread off topic with your Ten Hag nonsense.
I don’t know the answer to this, but has Amorin got any history with anything other than a back 3? He seem very strict on it, which means he’s so stubborn it’s disturbing or he’s been given indications he will get players in January. Something is going to have to give soon and if it’s a shift back to a back 4 then it’s over for him.
Ralf never pissed me off I felt vindicated. For the first time - wow someone gets it. What pissed me off were the players not running for him almost immediately "nah feck this old guy Im not running myself into the ground for an interim chump" attitude which told me we're in huge trouble with our dressing room - which we knew already tbh.
Looks like 5 2 3 to me.
Loads of defensive players in a side that only has creativity from two players (Amad, Bruno), our form playing this is exactly what I’d expect.
If he makes it a 3-4-3 we might manage to do something, but he’ll need to be much braver than playing conventional full backs as our wide men to make this function.
Loads of defensive players in a side that only has creativity from two players (Amad, Bruno), our form playing this is exactly what I’d expect.
If he makes it a 3-4-3 we might manage to do something, but he’ll need to be much braver than playing conventional full backs as our wide men to make this function.
At this point I'd rather stick with it than the players. We've been a 4-2-3-1 team since when? Mourinho, or LVG before. At least now we're finally seeing something new, a new formation, a new tactic and it isnt working but the manager needs time and a few of his own signings. If its not working after hes signed a few players for the formation then fair enough but when we picked this manager we knew this process was coming and that there would be a change around in the players who was bought for 4-2-3-1s. Its also a formation that teams did very well with last season. German league winners, Italian league winners. The problem is us.
Yeah, we definitely had a back 5 for large parts of tonight game.
Never seen 4 in the middle to be fair either. Not that the formation matters much. It’s not the reason we are so poor.
The wing-backs and striker make or break this system. Ours are fecking awful.
I've never seen so many passes kicked straight out of play or directly to the opposing team before. Maybe reverting the formation helps a little but its clear to me this side can't pass to save their lives.
I tend to agree with people saying what’s the point in forcing a new system if we don’t have the players for it and that half of them will be gone in January/Summer, especially when we are being dragged into a relegation battle because of it.
Garnacho is useless as the left 10, but he is at least a threat as a left winger.
If we continue to stick with it, I just hope we can box clever in January and bring in a few players that suit it.
Garnacho is useless as the left 10, but he is at least a threat as a left winger.
If we continue to stick with it, I just hope we can box clever in January and bring in a few players that suit it.
People will not comment on this.. But it's the truth. A 433 would have been a more stable and easier way of play to transition to. Plus it has worked well for City, Liverpool (Klopp Pep Rivalry) Arsenal, Madrid. Barcelona of Xavi, Iniesta, Busquest
Now we are just reinventing the wheel, which will cost us heavily in transfers plus a 343 might fail in EPL.