2024 U.S. Elections | Trump v Harris

oneniltothearsenal said:
I don't think that's accurate: "Beginning in 1994 and lasting only 100 days, the Rwandan Genocide is one of the most notorious modern genocides. During this 100 day period between April and July 1994, nearly one million ethnic Tutsi and moderate Hutu were killed"

I'm not going to go around in circles on this. I am convinced that if Trump were President both reported and eventual death tolls would be significantly higher. I am also convinced Harris will most likely be meaningfully better in the long term. If you disagree that's fine, but people that might disagree with you are not "gaslighting".
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There are 2 million Palestinians in Gaza. For ‘multiple’ millions to have been killed in one year, that would be literally the entire population of Gaza. There are still millions of Tutsi in Rwanda now.

The ‘gaslighting’ is not about any dispute that Trump is better. He is a monster. The gaslighting is that at every stage of criticism (and I’m talking about even before the election stuff was really in play), the defence has consistently been ‘it would be worse if the dems weren’t in’ or ‘they have no choice’. As it gets worse each time, there’s no serious pushback or criticism , just more of it would be worse , it would be worse. At least the have no choice aspect mostly disappeared for a bit , only to reappear again during the election campaign.

I’m 100% sure that we’ve reached the stage whereby even if Israel did set up concentration camps on Gaza and Biden/Harris continued to send weapons, the retort would be if trump was in power, there would be camps in the West Bank too. It’s a tiring circular conversation, whereby the more logical would simply be to say their policy on this is shite, the USA is genuinely completely deranged when it comes to Israel as a whole but Harris would be infinitely better on domestic issues, Ukraine and would be more amenable to some change in policy with Palestine.
 
Desert Eagle said:
There is no need to mischaracterize what people are saying. Biden, Harris etc are war criminals and scum but Trump will be worse and more innocents will die under him. If Palestinians lives are the main voting issue then it's a no contest.
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It's uncompassionate to play with words about human lives like it's only numbers. People's lives is always an issue.
 
The district polling looks better than the state polling for Harris in the rust belt or at least it did last time I checked.
 
HTG said:
It isn't. Or doesn't have to be. Politicians advocate all sorts of things they don't believe in, because it is in the interest of their party or they are under outside pressure. That's pretty much every day business for them and happens everywhere from local politics to world politics.
It only becomes a copying mechanism, if people claim this to be the case whenever someone they like does something bad.
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I mostly question why, in this particular case, people would think the politician does not believe.

A lot of center and slightly-left-of-center thought on Israel/Palestine was either vaguely or overtly racist, for many many years. Arguably still is. That is the kind of thought that a 60-year-old Democratic politician would be exposed to for most of their adult life and some form of it is likely what they believe.

Here, for example, is a blog post advocating for the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians:
AFTER THE LATEST DEPRESSING news from the Middle East I think we have to start asking just how inhumane it would be for Israel to just expel the Palestinians from the occupied terroritories. The result would probably be out-and-out war with the neighboring Arab states, but Israel could win that.

All forced population transfers are humanitarian disasters, of course, but so is the current situation. It's not like there's not any room in the whole Arab world for all these Palestinian Arabs to go live in, it's just that the other Arab leaders don't want to cooperate.
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Who wrote this? Former Vox founder Matthew Yglesias back in the distant pre-woke era known as 2002.
 
Carolina Red said:
@Kinsella will you just admit that you defend Trump because he ended Roe v. Wade?
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I’m not defending Trump. I’m pointing out the approaches and policies in particular areas that are obviously popular with a lot of people. The cult of personality alone doesn’t explain why he’s neck and neck in the current presidential race and indeed won it previously. If people don’t seriously grapple with the issues at play then it’s like whistling in the wind

Re: abortion, I’m guessing that it may be one of the least galvanising issues amongst his own support and probably the most galvanising amongst his opposition.

My own personal view on abortion hasn’t really changed, and I’d add that I find the conditioning of people over decades with Orwellian slogans to be cruel and almost insidious in nature.

Carolina Red said:
I’ve not forgotten what your tag line is from
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I’d hope not as I’m assuming you’re the one who issued it. :rolleyes:
 
Giggsyking said:
Have you seen Gaza? :lol:, there is literally nothing left.

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One of the advantages of the Israeli actions in north Gaza (liquidation by bombing, forced transfer, and starvation, followed by permanent military presence) is that the exact number of dead and the manner of their deaths will never be known. For example, a lot of mass graves were discovered during the one-week ceasefire last year, and we don't know how many people have been shot in a ditch by the IDF in the north this time, and how many have died during communication blackouts, etc.

So, for people who are queasy about mass death but wholeheartedly support the people doing the death, they can cite 45k or whatever figure is arrived at, and simply assert it would be worse otherwise.
 
gaffs said:
Trump signed the Muslim Ban Executive Order. I forget the legal back and forths and really cant be bothered looking back at that. And Biden did undo it....

On January 20, 2021, President Joe Biden revoked Executive Order 13780 and its related proclamations with Presidential Proclamation 10141.

Look back at Raoul's post of the video from Mehdi Hasan. That tells you also you need to know about Trump's plans for Gaza.
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That wasn’t it’s name (as scummy as it was) and a Muslim Canadian could have entered the USA as normal even following this EO. By not undoing, I’m referring to Jerusalem and the golan heights.

Again I’m not interested in defending Trump and I have no issues calling him a fascist. If I were American, I would probably hold my nose and vote Harris and then spend the next 4 years putting whatever pressure I could on her and almost inevitably cursing as nothing changes with Israel. But my point has never been that trump is better in any way.
gaffs said:
Agree on this point. Biden hasnt. But consider the context of the election. As others have said, anything seen as being anti Israel is a sure fire loser for your chances of winning.
Bibi knows this and has used it to his advantage.
With a 4 year term and no election looming, i believe Harris will do more.
Only time will tell though.
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We will see. I have frankly no faith in her that she will change anything on this topic. I’m sure she’ll be good domestically though.
 
gaffs said:
Not sure the purpose of the laughing emoji because it is not funny.

There are over 2 million people in Gaza. 45k dead. Harsh to say, but it could be even worse.
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45k the number stagnated because the number of dead is actually unknown and difficult to count, they stopped counting in many areas specially in northern Gaza, its closer to 100k than actually 45k, like about 5% of the population, its equal to 14m in the UK. But that's for another thread.
 
maniak said:
It's just a cope mechanism.
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Pretty much. The political theorist Benjamin Studebaker makes the point that in order for liberals/progressive voters to deal with lack of power and the ethical horrors of Gaza they view themselves as part of the democratic campaign. Almost as the party marketing agents or at least as people working to stop Trump winning.

Based on no evidence people are projecting a fantasy anti Israel position onto Harris because they have no political agency.
 
Blood Mage said:
The district polling looks better than the state polling for Harris in the rust belt or at least it did last time I checked.
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Yeah. And most of the state polling I’ve looked at has cross tab flaws when you start looking into the weeds. Unless Philadelphia just doesn’t vote
 
gaffs said:
This is an obscure take.

Her name is Kamala, not Kamal. Not sure if that is a MAGA joke or not?

Either way, if the killing in Gaza continues under Harris, then there will be massive pressure. Even if she has not stated it, people are expecting a change in direction under Harris and she will have let a lot of people down if it is business as usual.

If Trump gets in, there is absolutely no chance of of reining in Netanyahu. Look what Miriam Adelson wants Trump to do with Gaza. And what about Trump telling Bibi to "Finish the Job" makes you think that?
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I apologize for renaming Kamala Harris, it was an innocent typo. It is good that you noticed it and thank you for that.

From which politicians will that pressure come? I don't remember a single democrat calling out Biden's policy. Why do you think Kamala won't proceed in the same way. In fact her statements are the same as Biden's. Israel has a right to defend it self.

Why do you think that MSM medias would suddenly start reporting the situation honestly and without bias.

If Trump wins, democrats might start talking about it (long shot, I know), to score cheap political points. Once there is talking there will be pressure. Trump is also not popular abroad among leaders, so perhaps more foreign countries might steer away from US position.

My hope would be that if Trump wins, that in resistance to him, a palestinian voice gets louder.
Lemoor said:
When did anything similar ever happen? So far, every time they were scared of losing democrats only pivoted towards right.
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I'd say they shifted left in 2020 on many issues (mostly thanks to bernie and hillary losing in 2016). But I'm not american, so I might be wrong. Plus a lot of their voting body supports palestinian issue. So there might be a few politicians willing to attack trump on it, to score political points. In fact I think the only reason republicans are so cooperative on this issue is their base completely supports it, plus jewish money. They also probably privately support it, but I don't think that actually has much weight.
 
Jotun said:
I'd say they shifted left in 2020 on many issues (mostly thanks to bernie and hillary losing in 2016). But I'm not american, so I might be wrong. Plus a lot of their voting body supports palestinian issue. So there might be a few politicians willing to attack trump on it, to score political points. In fact I think the only reason republicans are so cooperative on this issue is their base completely supports it, plus jewish money. They also probably privately support it, but I don't think that actually has much weight.
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A bunch of people shifted left during the primaries, including Harris, but they lost. Sleepy Joe got the nomination and he actively ran against M4A, the signature progressive legislation. That Biden had kept his words to the left in the aftermath of that and governed to the left of his stated planks was a pleasant surprise, but I wouldn't say the party has moved left. If anything, it has now already moved right with its grand bargain on immigration and a Harris administration would be much more business friendly than the pro labour gov Biden ran.
 
Helder-Carvalho said:
Whats this about 80 000 amish voting for the first in Pensilvânia and all voting for the fat Orange diaper user?
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They historically don't vote, but the Trump camp is trying to tap into their base. As to why they'd vote for him - well its hardly surprising. They're essentially analog Libertarians - anyone that promises to do away with regulations, particularly around work-place safety and humane treatment of animals would probably strike a chord with them. Sprinkle in some questionable treatment of women and bible bashing and you'd see why they and the GOP would be natural bedfellows.
 
Wing Attack Plan R said:
The two highlighted sections contradict each other.

There is zero chance there will be any improvement for Palestinians under Trump.
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No they don't. As I'm saying a public opposition from politicians might, change public discourse.

In the end right now in US politics there is unanimonious support for Israel. If republicans win, democrats will start opposing it.

If you want support for the issues you care about don't vote for party that's ignoring it or working against it. If you do vote for them, well they certainly won't change their policy. They have no incentive.

I'm not saying vote for trump if you want to help palestinians. I'm saying don't vote for Kamala. You may think it's equivalent, I don't. Because if you vote for her, she'll have no incentive to go against her interests, she'll know next time you'll again vote for her.
 
Jotun said:
I'm not saying vote for trump if you want to help palestinians. I'm saying don't vote for Kamala. You may think it's equivalent, I don't. Because if you vote for her, she'll have no incentive to go against her interests, she'll know next time you'll again vote for her.
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Well, if enough people don't vote for her then Trump will win and she will not need any votes in 2028 anyway so...
 
As expected, 24 hours after Biden’s comment, the story still front and center. See CNN for example.

Terrible terrible unforced error.

Harris was on the offensive after MSG. Now she’s again playing defense. I absolutely despise this type of leaders who can’t watch their mouths and go too hyperbolic. We saw this sh*t 4 years ago with the deplorable comments and now we live it again, days only before an important election.

I’m furious more than I have been the whole campaign.
 
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Jotun said:
No they don't. As I'm saying a public opposition from politicians might, change public discourse.

In the end right now in US politics there is unanimonious support for Israel. If republicans win, democrats will start opposing it.

If you want support for the issues you care about don't vote for party that's ignoring it or working against it. If you do vote for them, well they certainly won't change their policy. They have no incentive.

I'm not saying vote for trump if you want to help palestinians. I'm saying don't vote for Kamala. You may think it's equivalent, I don't. Because if you vote for her, she'll have no incentive to go against her interests, she'll know next time you'll again vote for her.
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You don't know what you're talking about. You're taking opposite viewpoints and trying to knit them into something coherent but it just doesn't work. Trump has stated he will let Netanyahu "finish the job". It doesn't get any clearer than that. Implying that voting for Trump is going to equal anything other than Israel getting a blank check just does not fit the facts. You should stop digging the hole.
 
ManUtd1999 said:
As expected, 24 hours after Biden’s comment, the story still front and center. See CNN for example.

Terrible terrible unforced error.

Harris was on the offensive after MSG. Now she’s again playing defense. I absolutely despise this type of leaders who can’t watch their mouths and go too hyperbolic. We saw this sh*t 4 years ago with the deplorable comments and now we live it again, days only before an important election.

I’m furious more than I have been the whole campaign.
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Should have never let him speak. I hope that's the last of it. You can't fault him because he doesn't know which year it is.
 
The Firestarter said:
I mean it's obvious that's the way he thinks and that's the way many others think about Trump supporters, but he would normally not say it.
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Yes, but again, is what you expect of a decent candidate and is baffling that in july he was the D candidate
 
africanspur said:
There are 2 million Palestinians in Gaza. For ‘multiple’ millions to have been killed in one year, that would be literally the entire population of Gaza.
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The bizarre thing about these claims, of 'Trump would be 10x worse, there'd be no one left in Gaza, etc' is that, if you take them seriously, they mean that the Democratic Party, its politicians, its intellectuals, are constantly sucking off a country that would kill millions of people if given free reign. It's a defense that quickly becomes an indictment.
 
4bars said:
Yes, but again, is what you expect of a decent candidate and is baffling that in july he was the D candidate
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The issue isn't that he thinks that Trump fans are trash, because they are. The issue is that he said if out loud in front of the whole world. Not that it matters, I think you guys are too nervous. This is not going to sway anything: "Oh yeah, I wasn't going to vote for the fascist who wants to ban abortion but Biden, who is not even running, called us/them garbage! Let's go!"
 
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SirAF said:
The issue isn't that he thinks that Trump fans are trash, because they are. The issue is that he said if out loud in front of the whole world. Not that it matters, I think you guys are too nervous. This is not going to sway anything: "Oh yeah, I wasn't going to vote for the fascist who wants to ban abortion but Biden called us/them garbage! Let's go!"
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It doesn't matter as much as what happen in the MSG as it basically target a minority that could vote for either candidate or not vote at all. While Biden targeted the voters that wont vote at all for the D party.

But he stop the Puerto Rican, latinos and black racism news cycle and gave them half jail pass. Which is stupid because the MSG was a big feck up that could tip the point towards the D and now is not that certain
 
4bars said:
It doesn't matter as much as what happen in the MSG as it basically target a minority that could vote for either candidate or not vote at all. While Biden targeted the voters that wont vote at all for the D party.

But he stop the Puerto Rican news cycle and gave them half jail pass. Which is stupid because the MSG was a big feck up that could tip the point towards the D and now is not that certain
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What is done is done. If we're going to obsess it's better to dig into the early voting data, surely.
 
SirAF said:
What is done is done. If we're going to obsess it's better to dig into the early voting data, surely.
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sure, brush it under the carpet I guess? but you know, I like to talk about it. Is a forum and I like to discuss things like this and as me many others that if we are enough they can stop the stupid old fart to speak again and feck it up again
 
4bars said:
sure, brush it under the carpet I guess? but you know, I like to talk about it. Is a forum and I like to discuss things like this and as me many others that if we are enough they can stop the stupid old fart to speak again and feck it up again
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Knock yourself out. I'm not so sure how interesting it is to discuss at a great length, Biden made a gaffe as per usual and Harris distanced herself quickly.
 
4bars said:
But he stop the Puerto Rican, latinos and black racism news cycle and gave them half jail pass. Which is stupid because the MSG was a big feck up that could tip the point towards the D and now is not that certain
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I came home during the speech of Harris (her closing argument) in DC. It felt like she has some momentum. It felt positive after MSG.

CNN interviewed Governor Shapiro. He looked energized, on the offensive. Then, CNN played that clip of Biden. The guy didn’t know what to say: it was the first time that he has heard these comments.

What does that mean? Biden was making these comments more or less at the same time that Harris was making her closing argument to the country. Maybe that was a bit earlier. But, still.

Okay. I’m going be quiet now on this matter, but it’s just wrong. Harris has avoided all kinds of controversies for 100 days, and then this happened!!
 
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