2024 U.S. Elections | Trump v Harris

Wibble said:
Hardly zero evidence. It seems very apparent that Harris is less pro-Israel than Biden. Based on past behavior it is totally apparent that Trump will be terrible for non-Israelis in the ME (and potentially terrible for them as well). Does that mean that Harris will be anti-Israel? No. But when there is a binary choice you choose the massively less shit option.
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Harris: "Let me be clear, I will always stand up for Israel's right to defend itself and I will always ensure Israel has the ability to defend itself"
 
ExoduS said:
Harris: "Let me be clear, I will always stand up for Israel's right to defend itself and I will always ensure Israel has the ability to defend itself"
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I know you may argue semantics but how is that any different from saying any country has the right to defend itself? That itself is hardly controversial. The semantics part obviously comes in with how far that goes. It's people like John Stewart and many others who basically have said it like this: it's ok to respond to a horrific event like happened at the concert, but there is a clear point at which it's no longer about that and it becomes a full on indiscriminate war on a people.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
So I'll clarify, reported death toll of roughly 45K with an actual death toll when all is said and done much higher vs. what I believe could easily have been 90K reported death toll with an actual death toll even higher when all is said and done than what it will be now. Obviously, what Biden has done has not been enough and not been satisfactory and what Harris might do likely won't be ideal but I believe Harris would be measurably and meaningful better than Trump. And the point is, believing that things could get measurably and meaningfully worse with Trump is not "gaslighting" given his actions, rhetoric, base and donors.
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She might be slightly better but there's also a much higher chance she'll keep what Biden has been doing. If it's the latter, the difference for Palestinians between her and Trump would be almost nothing. It'll never be meaningful because the Democrats have never done anything resembling that for the Palestinians. The worst two events for them after the Nakba happened under a Democratic president and they haven't done anything afterwards to rectify their consequences.

The annexation of the West Bank goes back to the same thing. We're already in that process, the question will be whether it's accelerated under Trump and fully recognized or keeps happening but at a slower pace with meaningless condemnation rhetoric under Harris. The end result will be the same.
 
Redplane said:
I know you may argue semantics but how is that any different from saying any country has the right to defend itself? That itself is hardly controversial. The semantics part obviously comes in with how far that goes. It's people like John Stewart and many others who basically have said it like this: it's ok to respond to a horrific event like happened at the concert, but there is a clear point at which it's no longer about that and it becomes a full on indiscriminate war on a people.
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It is not controversial. It is an illusion to think that Kamala will be any different on issue of Israel than any other American president. There are so many issues to discuss where presidency will make a difference and Israel is not one of those issues.
 
I find it bizarre how there are posters naive enough to think that democrats are just pandering to votes but will actually act differently with regard to Israel,when the situation is actually opposite.

They claim to draw lines and criticise them (pathetically weak criticism, but a little) yet never do anything about it.

In reality, Israel have carte blanche to act as they wish regardless of administration. The only difference is one party will gleefully support evil whilst the other one will reluctantly allow it to happen and claim to have a conscience about it.

You can say that about a lot of issues in US politics and it goes a long way to explain why there are conscientious people who won't vote for Harris even though trump is the alternative. When every election is 'elect the lesser evil' there comes a point where one must realise the game is rigged.

I'd still vote Harris if I were American, but I don't blame those who vote neither.
 
gaffs said:
White suprematists are not at the fore. They are the core of the GOP. That is not changing.

Trump enacted a Muslim travel ban. Trump moved the U.S. embassy in Israel to Jerusalem. Trump recognized Israel’s annexation of the Golan Heights. He said Bibi is doing a good job and claimed Biden was holding him back. He said Bibi should "finish the job" in Gaza. Trump promised to deport pro-Palestinian protesters all while using “Palestinian” as a slur.

There will be nothing left of Gaza if Trump gets in.
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He didn’t enact a Muslim travel ban, as scummy as it was. Biden hasn’t undone any of Trumps moves and I don’t imagine Harris will either. The settlements continue to expand with no pushback whatsoever.

Biden says one thing in public and then sends literally tens of billions of aid to Israel to fund this war and blocks any diplomatic repercussions. There is already basically nothing left of Gaza and the attacks continue unabated.

We’ve been playing this game for a year now. The dems will rein them in. The dems will stop regional spread of the war. The dems will stop them in Gaza. The dems will make sure aid gets in.

As each red line is crossed, the defence is just that trump would be worse, with nothing more than a mild shrugged shoulder.
 
Redplane said:
It's like the transgender issue - what percentage of the population is actual transgender or identified as such? 0.6%

These people are looking for demons and instead of finding them, create them out of nothing.
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Totally agree.

You can then further divide the number of transgender people down my many multiples to find the number of transgender people in sports, or prisonses that want a sex change.

Yet the Trump campaign has put more money into that transgender prisoners ad than any other. I see it non stop when watching football.

And the irony is that Mark Robison, Gov candidate in NC, one of the most stunchest anti trans candidates, is the one that has said he enjoys trans porn...
https://www.advocate.com/election/mark-robinson-black-nazi-trans-porn
It is always projection with these people!
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
I don't think its fair to call a different opinion than you on the bold "gaslighting". Right now the death toll stands at about 45K plus associated terrible conditions. With the military disparity, I think after a year Israel could have killed hundreds of thousands or even millions by now. While it might be completely unsatisfactory, I do think the Biden admin is exerting more pressure behind the scenes than a Trump admin would have given Trump's actions as President, his current rhetoric, and what his base and donors are pushing for. I think with a Trump you easily could seen 90K death toll plus an increase in associated terrible conditions so I don't think that it can "barely" get worse, I think it could have been and could still get a lot worse. Harris, I think would go further than Biden and much further than Trump in trying to resolve things.
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I think it’s completely fair. At this point there is literally no evidence of the Biden administration trying to rein in the Israelis. On the contrary, even as Israel commits each new atrocity, the Americans double down. They send anti missile systems. They send free military supplies. They block any attempt at diplomatic punishment. They threaten the slightly independent international courts looking into their conduct.

At this point, there is almost no heath infrastructure left in Gaza. There is a literal siege of starvation happening in the north. Polio has returned.

Millions would be literally the entire Gaza population ie the genocide would have been more successful in one year than any genocide in modern history has ever been.

I see almost no evidence of the Americans trying to rein in Israel at all. You tell them that the weapons and diplomatic cover stops tomorrow and the war likely stops soon after. But they don’t and they continue to send weapons, money etc.

It’s never ending. It’s been a year of this same shit with people just moving the red lines as to what’s more terrible after Israel breaches one red line after another.

Again, I’m not even saying that Trump would be better. Or even equivalent. In fact I’ve said otherwise. But as this war has raged on, the gap between the two has narrowed and narrowed.
 
Wibble said:
Are we sure of that? I am seeing lots of interview in areas of high Arabic, or otherwise invested migrant areas, who are saying just that. Of course it could just be journalists seeking a sound bite that suite their agenda but ....

I suspect that Harris is by far the best option for Gaza and the Middle East. You don't get elected by openly slagging Israel but I think her public opinion now will turn into a far less pro-Israeli one once she is hopefully elected. Trump would be a disaster for everyone. The man who moved the US Embassy and loves being flattered by a fascist strongman.
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Where are these interviews?
 
ExoduS said:
It is not controversial. It is an illusion to think that Kamala will be any different on issue of Israel than any other American president. There are so many issues to discuss where presidency will make a difference and Israel is not one of those issues.
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Well…If she did what HW did in 91 she’ll be very different to a lot of others. Certainly Biden. If she doesn’t then she’s different to HW.
 
B20 said:
I find it bizarre how there are posters naive enough to think that democrats are just pandering to votes but will actually act differently with regard to Israel,when the situation is actually opposite.

They claim to draw lines and criticise them (pathetically weak criticism, but a little) yet never do anything about it.

In reality, Israel have carte blanche to act as they wish regardless of administration. The only difference is one party will gleefully support evil whilst the other one will reluctantly allow it to happen and claim to have a conscience about it.

You can say that about a lot of issues in US politics and it goes a long way to explain why there are conscientious people who won't vote for Harris even though trump is the alternative. When every election is 'elect the lesser evil' there comes a point where one must realise the game is rigged.

I'd still vote Harris if I were American, but I don't blame those who vote neither.
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You do make a good point in that no American president will move the needle on the Palestine issue to the extent that it would satisfy the desires of pro-Palestine advocates. But one choice is clearly better than the other in that Trump will probably advocate for full on ethnic cleansing of all Palestinians from Gaza and the WB, and will probably go so far as to strike a deal with the Saudis and other regional countries to resettle them in exchange for greater US cooperation and arms sales to take them in.
 
gaffs said:
I think you are judging who cares most, by who is loudest and most single minded on the topic.

Im British, living in the US with US Citizenship. I'm not burning my ballot just because Biden has allowed Bibi to enact the atrocities that he has. Im clear eyed about the alternative and believe Harris has the potential to offer a change of direction re Israel and Palestine. If it's just more of the same, im happy to admit being wrong and will be deeply disappointed in her.

If Harris does win, i would much rather her work towards finding a solution in the middle east than "resolve" any single US domestic issue. That and not giving and inch to Russia in Ukraine.
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I think my sentence structure today is awful. When I say others, I mean other issues, not other people.

At no point have I been trying to argue that Trump would be better than Harris, in any field. He is not. The Dems have however shown little actual interest in stopping Israel. Some nice words sure, but practically carte Blanche to do as they wish.

In that context, some posters become less single issue voters than people think and think about voting more on other issues instead.
 
africanspur said:
He didn’t enact a Muslim travel ban, as scummy as it was. Biden hasn’t undone any of Trumps moves and I don’t imagine Harris will either. The settlements continue to expand with no pushback whatsoever.

Biden says one thing in public and then sends literally tens of billions of aid to Israel to fund this war and blocks any diplomatic repercussions. There is already basically nothing left of Gaza and the attacks continue unabated.

We’ve been playing this game for a year now. The dems will rein them in. The dems will stop regional spread of the war. The dems will stop them in Gaza. The dems will make sure aid gets in.

As each red line is crossed, the defence is just that trump would be worse, with nothing more than a mild shrugged shoulder.
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Trump signed the Muslim Ban Executive Order. I forget the legal back and forths and really cant be bothered looking back at that. And Biden did undo it....

On January 20, 2021, President Joe Biden revoked Executive Order 13780 and its related proclamations with Presidential Proclamation 10141.

Look back at Raoul's post of the video from Mehdi Hasan. That tells you also you need to know about Trump's plans for Gaza.
 
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africanspur said:
I think my sentence structure today is awful. When I say others, I mean other issues, not other people.

At no point have I been trying to argue that Trump would be better than Harris, in any field. He is not. The Dems have however shown little actual interest in stopping Israel. Some nice words sure, but practically carte Blanche to do as they wish.

In that context, some posters become less single issue voters than people think and think about voting more on other issues instead.
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Agree on this point. Biden hasnt. But consider the context of the election. As others have said, anything seen as being anti Israel is a sure fire loser for your chances of winning.
Bibi knows this and has used it to his advantage.
With a 4 year term and no election looming, i believe Harris will do more.
Only time will tell though.
 
gaffs said:
Agree on this point. Biden hasnt. But consider the context of the election. As others have said, anything seen as being anti Israel is a sure fire loser for your chances of winning.
Bibi knows this and has used it to his advantage.
With a 4 year term and no election looming, i believe Harris will do more.
Only time will tell though.
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At the very least she will surround herself with people that will pressure her to do more. Trump won't.
 
africanspur said:
I think it’s completely fair. At this point there is literally no evidence of the Biden administration trying to rein in the Israelis. On the contrary, even as Israel commits each new atrocity, the Americans double down. They send anti missile systems. They send free military supplies. They block any attempt at diplomatic punishment. They threaten the slightly independent international courts looking into their conduct.

At this point, there is almost no heath infrastructure left in Gaza. There is a literal siege of starvation happening in the north. Polio has returned.

Millions would be literally the entire Gaza population ie the genocide would have been more successful in one year than any genocide in modern history has ever been.

I see almost no evidence of the Americans trying to rein in Israel at all. You tell them that the weapons and diplomatic cover stops tomorrow and the war likely stops soon after. But they don’t and they continue to send weapons, money etc.

It’s never ending. It’s been a year of this same shit with people just moving the red lines as to what’s more terrible after Israel breaches one red line after another.

Again, I’m not even saying that Trump would be better. Or even equivalent. In fact I’ve said otherwise. But as this war has raged on, the gap between the two has narrowed and narrowed.
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I don't think that's accurate: "Beginning in 1994 and lasting only 100 days, the Rwandan Genocide is one of the most notorious modern genocides. During this 100 day period between April and July 1994, nearly one million ethnic Tutsi and moderate Hutu were killed"

I'm not going to go around in circles on this. I am convinced that if Trump were President both reported and eventual death tolls would be significantly higher. I am also convinced Harris will most likely be meaningfully better in the long term. If you disagree that's fine, but people that might disagree with you are not "gaslighting".
 
nimic said:
Harry Enten's contribution to the discourse.
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He has a point though. Both sides are attempting to gaslight their flocks for clicks that they know what will happen, when the uncomfortable reality is that no one knows. It may come across as an unsatisfying non-statement, but its actually more meaningful than someone attempting to make a confident prediction.
 
Raoul said:
He has a point though. Both sides are attempting to gaslight their flocks for clicks that they know what will happen, when the uncomfortable reality is that no one knows. It may come across as an unsatisfying non-statement, but its actually more meaningful than someone attempting to make a confident prediction.
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Yet on the hour, every hour, he does a piece on CNN moving states from red to blue, then back to red again. Completely pointless.
 
Raoul said:
This is spot on. No one is getting elected on a "tough on Israel" platform, but once elected, there is more flexibility for politicians to privately take tougher stands against things like tying future weapon shipments to Israel with concessions ranging from more humanitarian aid to affected people and a verifiable, milestone based timeline as to when the entire conflict will be ended overall.
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So you’re saying, she could pivot?!
 
gaffs said:
Yet on the hour, every hour, he does a piece on CNN moving states from red to blue, then back to red again. Completely pointless.
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They're giving different scenarios, not predicting who will win. That's pretty much par for the course among all news outlets and punditry sites.
 
One thing most people don't talk about enough is how the winning margin for Democrats came from the black vote in 4 major cities, Milwaukee, Detroit, Philadelphia and Atlanta.

And yet Biden spent the last 4 years with policies aimed at winning back white working class voters, and got nothing for it. At some point the party has to start catering to its actual loyal voters, the urban minorities and the college educated young professional, instead of chasing that great white whale.

Clayton County, Georgia, despite being the most pro-Biden in the country in 2020 consistently lagged behind statewide turnout rate, it was 8% in 2020 and looks to be similar this year. If Harris loses the state because she's short a few thousand votes it can be directly traced back to that. Same with Philadelphia, since its high point in 2012 under Obama, the inner city turnout has been below the state average.
 
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/30/opinion/kamala-harris-democrats-congress.html

At a minimum, a Democratic sweep would protect President Biden’s legacy of investments in electric vehicle infrastructure, more affordable Obamacare premiums, kitchen table initiatives (mostly in the form of tax subsidies for the middle class), gun safety and clean energy. At the same time, Americans could reasonably anticipate new progress on abortion rights, voting rights, immigration, child tax credits, help for small business, affordable housing, paid family leave, home health care under Medicare, tax fairness and the appointment of liberal judges. Democrats eying that mouthwatering menu have reason to believe they could enjoy a feast.

Imagine securing reproductive rights nationwide, moving the conversation from protecting democracy to strengthening it, cutting child poverty nearly in half and finally making billionaires pay their fair share of income taxes. The challenge of reconciling dreams and reality would remain, of course. But instead of a prevent-defense, Democrats would then be inside the red team’s red zone, poised to put real points on the board.
 
Arnie endorsed Kamala. They need to get him and Ventura together to make a “we know a thing or two about fighting predators” ad
 
Wing Attack Plan R said:
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/30/opinion/kamala-harris-democrats-congress.html

At a minimum, a Democratic sweep would protect President Biden’s legacy of investments in electric vehicle infrastructure, more affordable Obamacare premiums, kitchen table initiatives (mostly in the form of tax subsidies for the middle class), gun safety and clean energy. At the same time, Americans could reasonably anticipate new progress on abortion rights, voting rights, immigration, child tax credits, help for small business, affordable housing, paid family leave, home health care under Medicare, tax fairness and the appointment of liberal judges. Democrats eying that mouthwatering menu have reason to believe they could enjoy a feast.

Imagine securing reproductive rights nationwide, moving the conversation from protecting democracy to strengthening it, cutting child poverty nearly in half and finally making billionaires pay their fair share of income taxes. The challenge of reconciling dreams and reality would remain, of course. But instead of a prevent-defense, Democrats would then be inside the red team’s red zone, poised to put real points on the board.
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Some of this things might happen, some might not. What surely will not happen is making the billionaires pay their fair share
 
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