The Bush Jr presidency meets most of the points as well.
2024 U.S. Elections | Trump v Harris
- Thread starter Raoul
- Start date
The fact this needs to be explained is just plain sad. The worst thing though is that I can't figure out if people are just arguing in bad faith or if they really don't understand this stuff and think their arguments are valid and well thought out.
The Republican party is always going to have some connection to fascism through nationalism and the protection of corporate power. What wasn't there before is an aspiring dictator willing to suspend the constitution to remain in power because he lost and wants to remain president to stay out of prison. Trump is somewhat unique in that he's a habitual criminal obsessed with power and self-aggrandizement.
Maher attempting to convince Megyn Kelly that Trump is a fascist, only for her to gaslight him about Biden.
I find it strange that anyone can blame Democrats for trying to point out that Trump is or greatly admires fascists. This in the same week where his own Chief of Staff who ,HE HIRED, a 4 star general told the world that trump wanted generals more like Hitler had. Over a dozen ex officials who again, TRUMP HIRED, that are not Democrats btw agree with Kelly in an open letter they signed.
All Kamala did was say what they said, and we can all see frankly, but maybe she's making it up? Why doesnt she openly say damn I am sad the assassins missed? Because otherwise he can't be that bad then? WTF?
All these not democrats should have come out way earlier than this on the record. That is clear. But, they all get swept away under this is a Democrat plot. It is easier to believe trump is a victim and these people are ganging up on him? We have all heard the words from his actual orange mouth. The countless people he hired telling us that he is in fact awful.
How is this more "both sides", or but the Democrats again?
All Kamala did was say what they said, and we can all see frankly, but maybe she's making it up? Why doesnt she openly say damn I am sad the assassins missed? Because otherwise he can't be that bad then? WTF?
All these not democrats should have come out way earlier than this on the record. That is clear. But, they all get swept away under this is a Democrat plot. It is easier to believe trump is a victim and these people are ganging up on him? We have all heard the words from his actual orange mouth. The countless people he hired telling us that he is in fact awful.
How is this more "both sides", or but the Democrats again?
I don't think she's wrong for saying it, nor does anyone else in this thread with the notable exception of one poster.
Not a crowd size truther but its still funny how this dickwad seems to only ever do a few hundreds people at best on his own, in hangar/warehouses like this. Also why Republicans cant shake Trump off because the next generation of MAGAs are even more unpopular.
Trump isn’t that unique he is just less effective. Bush Jr actual stole a election something which Trump couldn’t do.
If fascism is hints at authoritarianism, nationalism and the protection of corporate power then we are back again to just vibes. Which imo doesn’t work.
In the same interview Harris agreed with Trump immigration policy.
It doesn’t come across as serious to call your political opponent a fascist and then agree with them on policy.
He actually followed the law which was to take it to the courts, which is the opposite. In Trump, we are talking about a proposition that would end Democracy in the United States by suspending the constitution and removing power from the legislative and judicial branches and placing it in the hands of one dictator. They are therefore light years apart.
Mistaking Tad for Willie isn't a cardinal sin, the lie about Lincoln being afraid of Robert E.Lee was more egregious.
We had multiple accounts of Lincoln including his correspondence, his secretaries, some surviving drafts of speeches etc and the opposite is true, he was extremely exasperated at the commanders of the Army of the Potomac for not doggedly challenging Lee in battle, and was estatic when Grant expressed the same sentiment. It's a fvcking blatant distortion of Civil War history to say otherwise, but then he has also repeatedly praised Lee before and not a surprise he identifies with the slaver.
We had multiple accounts of Lincoln including his correspondence, his secretaries, some surviving drafts of speeches etc and the opposite is true, he was extremely exasperated at the commanders of the Army of the Potomac for not doggedly challenging Lee in battle, and was estatic when Grant expressed the same sentiment. It's a fvcking blatant distortion of Civil War history to say otherwise, but then he has also repeatedly praised Lee before and not a surprise he identifies with the slaver.
Her issue is she can't run as a challenger to Trump because she is part of the incumbent administration, which means the two central issues that would've hurt Biden had he stayed in the race would also apply to Harris if she became the nominee, and indeed they have. Had Biden taken the border more seriously from the get go, he could've removed it as a potential albatross around the necks of Democrats come election time, but instead he waited til year 4 to do anything substantial. If he took care of it in year one, things would be much simpler for Harris now.
Last edited:
Probably not, but here we are. It would help if the party crying fascism (bullshit!) was above board not just a power hungry cabal.
Her issue is she can't run as a challenger to Trump because she is part of the incumbent administration, which means the two central issues that would've hurt Biden had he stayed in the race, would also apply to Harris if she became the nominee, and indeed they have. Had Biden taken the border more seriously from the get go, he could've removed it as a potential albatross around the necks of Democrats come election time, but instead he waited til year 4 to do anything substantial. If he took care of it in year one, things would be much simpler for Harris now.
100% - and I've argued incessantly on this thread that she is a terrible choice!
Our friends across the pond can't seem to understand the why
There's nothing the Dems could've done in terms of having a primary. Biden simply left it too late and only Harris would've had access to his campaign funds. Had Biden withdrawn six earlier, the Dems could've reloaded with a proper mini primary that included the likes of Newsom, Whitmer, Shapiro, Harris, and a few others. I think Harris has a run a mostly good campaign considering the compressed schedule.
As an external observer, its really hilarious that one contender is Trump and other is fighting with the debatable claim of being better than Trump. How did you end up here?!
Jeffrey Goldberg never said he was in the room.
But the person he was interviewing, General Kelly, was.
Are you going to believe pathological liar Trump or 4 Star General and Gold Star parent John Kelly?
It's a bit naive to present Trump vs Harris as a battle of candidates. It's essentially a battle of ideologies and direction for the country. People keep saying that Trump voters are just stupid, or that they don't know what they are voting for. Nothing could be further from the truth. Trump voters mostly want what he is selling. They think the idea of a king as a president would be good, because Washington doesn't work anyway, better to have someone actually take charge. Many of them admire that he coerces, cheats, lies and steals - because they think he will do that to protect their interests. One guy told me "Nothing stops him, it's great". They call him "honest", because he says whatever he wants to at any given time - he feels real for them.
Every time he breaks the law, gets convicted of something, says something utterly insane - his numbers go up. More people want to vote for him. They do not see Trump's authoritarian aspect as a threat, they see it as an opportunity for a president to rule as a unitarian and fix the country once and for all. If he enriches himself on the way, and breaks a few eggs - so be it. It's not without merit either - he is undoubtedly one of the most influential politicians in a very long while. Staged an insurrection, sold secrets to the Saudis, gave the Russians NATO intel in the oval - and still a massive amount of people support him. Trump managed to enthuse 74M voters last time around, some are ignorant, but certainly not all, and is looking likely to hit at least 70M this election too.
Trump will break democracy in the US. Not just because he himself is dangerously unhinged, but he is also one of the most effective and influential politicians in recent US history. In one term, and through a pandemic, he shook the NATO alliance, disrupted the idea of the US as a diplomatic world leader, broke the tradition of peaceful transfer of power, broke all conventions of what a president is, cemented the courts as conservative for decades to come, transformed the GOP into a personality cult and changed how we talk and think about politics - perhaps forever. And that was with most of his cabinet, the Supreme Court and career bureaucrats doing their utmost to limit the damage he could do. Now he would be entering into the White House with an army of loyalists and a SC that won't block his every move. His supporters see this too - and they think "Wow, he can actually fix the country now".
The choices in front of voters this election is either to vote Harris or let the authoritarians take over the country - because they are much more enthused than those who want to protect democracy are. They might not identify as authoritarians, I reckon they would call themselves patriots, but they non the less are. They will all cheer him on as he upends the country, suspends elections and tears down the systems that stop him from acting with impunity - because that is what they want.
W knowingly misled the American public and the international community by fabricating evidence about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, started a war on false pretenses that engulfed the region in flames and caused approx. 10,000 Americans (soldiers and contractors) and over 750,000 Iraqi deaths = beacon of democracy!
Trump thew a hissy fit in the WH, perpetuated baseless claims of widespread voter fraud, manipulating his supporters and using the controversy to solicit donations and store the US Capitol = second coming of Hitler
The hyperbole is strong with this one.
As others have said, there was no time for a primary. She had access to the Biden campaign funds, where others wouldn't. And even if there was a primary in the space of a couple of week, it could have easily have split the party had a black female candidate who had been the serving VP has been passed over.
Displays your lack of objective thinking when you can't consider any of these facts, or the context of her taking over from Biden, in a very short space of time.
If she wins, she will have done so with a campaign where she was top of the ticket for around only 100 days.
John Kelly was so stunned by Donald Trump’s admiration for Hitler, he somehow forgot about it for four or five years, only to suddenly remember it two weeks before the election....
Why is this an issue ? Trump is applying for the biggest job in the world, so its only natural those around him would provide reference as he's going through that process, as opposed to 2 years ago when Trump was doing feck all.
Also, it wasn't just Kelly. It was also Milley who called him a fascist, and Bob Woodward just reported that Mattis confirmed what the other two said about Trump. When half your former administration think you're a moron, its not they who are the problem.
Don't forget Trump...
Being found guilty of falsifying business records and campaign finance laws in 2016 that he is waiting to be sentenced for in NY.
Attempting to bribe Ukraine to dig up/fabricate stories about Biden in the run up to the 2020 election - his first impeachment.
Taking classified documents back to Mar-A-Lago and purposely hiding them from the FBI.
He have classified Info to Russians during a White House visit.
Now threatening to remove broadcasting licenses from national networks.
You're certainly good at regurgitating the Sean Hannity talking points.
Military men don't want to get involved in politics. Speaking out is really the last thing they want to do, but they see Trump being a grave threat.
But don't believe any of these men...
... lets believe pathological liar Trump and the guy on the internet defending him!
And honestly we have heard about this for years. This is just the first time "the sources" have come on record. There has long been reporting that trump admires Hitler and dictators. The only "new" part is the sources willing to come out about it on the record. And I dont think anyone would argue that their timing is wonderful. They all should have testified at his Impeachment hearings. And January 6th committee. There were "leaks" to the media his entire presidency. Here they all are. It isn't like this is all brand new since last week.
No one is arguing that they are all wonderful ex trump guys now and deserve to be welcomed to all the picnics because they have seen the light. They all have to own up to their part in the MAGA world getting entrenched in lies they could have helped correct.
'Im not MAGA, I just repeat every MAGA talking points verbatim and post MAGA account posts + memes'
Milley said as much years ago, Kelly just corroborated it now. And whatever your opinion of the US military is, their leadership by and large respect the boundary between civil and military and don't express their political opinions out loud, or even giving the appearance of interfering with politics.
The bigger shock is not using dark mode.
The idea that Harris is such a terrible candidate is weird to me. She is certainly not perfect, but I really can't see Whitmer, Shapiro, Newsom or Buttigieg being significantly different. They'd all be this center-left (by American standards) semi-boring candidate with standard Democrat policies, and they would each have their weaknesses that would have come out in a campaign. The problem with Harris is mostly something she cannot control, namely her link to the Biden administration, particularly as it relates to his foreign policy.
If Harris loses, the one to point the finger at will be Biden - both for screwing up the process and for allowing the genocide in Gaza.
If Harris loses, the one to point the finger at will be Biden - both for screwing up the process and for allowing the genocide in Gaza.
I disagree. Biden didn’t leave it too late; instead, the DNC and their media lackeys deliberately tried to conceal the obvious cognitive decline of a sitting president. They actively dismissed any attempts to highlight this decline as mere right-wing conspiracy theories, preventing meaningful discussion and scrutiny on Biden's condition. Of course, they only caved after the disastrous debate, when it became impossible to ignore. And even then, they didn't run a mini-primary when there was ample time to do so, they just chose what was the most expedient way to preserve the money and control (Kamala who's a lightweight):
These are all some of my posts from last year / January:
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/2024-u-s-elections-trump-v-harris.473958/page-57#post-31008299
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/2024-u-s-elections-trump-v-harris.473958/page-57#post-31008580
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/2024-u-s-elections-trump-v-harris.473958/page-58#post-31008995
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/2024-u-s-elections-trump-v-harris.473958/page-67#post-31101944
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/2024-u-s-elections-trump-v-harris.473958/page-70#post-31131406
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/2024-u-s-elections-trump-v-harris.473958/page-70#post-31137291
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/2024-u-s-elections-trump-v-harris.473958/page-71#post-31142501
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/2024-u-s-elections-trump-v-harris.473958/page-72#post-31153635
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/2024-u-s-elections-trump-v-harris.473958/page-72#post-31155627
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/2024-u-s-elections-trump-v-harris.473958/page-73#post-31180159
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/2024-u-s-elections-trump-v-harris.473958/page-73#post-31180159
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/2024-u-s-elections-trump-v-harris.473958/page-77#post-31276457
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/2024-u-s-elections-trump-v-harris.473958/page-111#post-31536825
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/2024-u-s-elections-trump-v-harris.473958/page-122#post-31570041
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/2024-u-s-elections-trump-v-harris.473958/page-124#post-31571779
I'm honestly impressed in retrospective with how spot-on I was and how hysterical most of you got over these posts. It’s almost like some of you have zero foresight—so, enjoy reaping what you’ve sown come November. You’ve earned it.
Dark mode is overrated.
She’s the least effective communicator of the group, which was born out last time she attempted to run against actual competition. Newsom and Shapiro for instance, are light years ahead in terms of communicating, which is at least half the game.
That’s not what happened. Ultimately it’s Biden’s call on whether or not he was going to run for re-election. He didn’t decide to drop out until various Dem leaders like Pelosi and others showed him hard polling data that showed he was likely to lose, at which point he dropped out. It wasn’t a conspiracy, it was simply Biden being hard headed about not dropping out until after the June 28th debate.
This is impressively bad imo. The actual VP is unqualified? The US should let Ukraine become Russia? Literally not defending the police.
It's even worse than that, Biden put out an official communication that he's not dropping out, then Pelosi had to come on MSNBC and basically called that bluff, then Congressional Dems followed her lead and started speaking out in public. It played out for everybody to see, Biden had to be dragged kicking and screaming from the race.
OK Boomer
This is a wild commercial, and also true. Young men voting for Republicans is deeply ironic, since 2 or their main hobbies, porn and video games, are things the GOP specifically say they are going after, even by Trump himself.
Like the wire .
Listen here you little shit
Look, I fundamentally disagree with the timing and characterization of these revelations. The label of 'fascist' for Trump doesn't quite resonate with me, given the four years he was in office. If his intent had been to establish fascist policies, the COVID-19 pandemic would have provided a perfect opportunity. In contrast, while other liberal democratic governments in the West (e.g., Italy, Spain, New Zealand, Australia, France, Germany, Canada) were enacting drastic nationwide lockdowns, mandating masks, severely restricting travel, and pushing vaccine mandates, Trump’s response was notably restrained for someone labeled as a fascist. His approach was decentralized, focusing on individual states' autonomy rather than imposing federal-level fascist mandates. And, during the post-George Floyd protests, he had the chance to play the classic dictator card and impose martial law—but, strangely enough, he didn’t. He just left it to state authorities. Oh, and he somehow managed to avoid bombing or invading any random countries during his term—definitely not what we’d expect from a textbook fascist.
So, the rhetoric about Trump being the second coming of Hitler feels overblown. You may not like him—and that’s fine—but let’s be accurate when assigning labels that don’t quite fit.
If we’re talking fascist tendencies, let’s aim at Dubya and Cheney. The same cnuts whose disastrous neocon agenda in the Middle East killed hundreds of thousands, and whose Patriot Act—a massive assault on citizens' rights—fits the authoritarian bill a lot better. But, of course, they’re now whitewashed and celebrated as 'defenders of democracy' by both liberal and conservative media—and even by four-star generals!
By the way, tomorrow Trump will hold a rally at Madison Square Garden.