2024 U.S. Elections | Trump v Harris

The idea that Harris is such a terrible candidate is weird to me. She is certainly not perfect, but I really can't see Whitmer, Shapiro, Newsom or Buttigieg being significantly different. They'd all be this center-left (by American standards) semi-boring candidate with standard Democrat policies, and they would each have their weaknesses that would have come out in a campaign. The problem with Harris is mostly something she cannot control, namely her link to the Biden administration, particularly as it relates to his foreign policy.

If Harris loses, the one to point the finger at will be Biden - both for screwing up the process and for allowing the genocide in Gaza.
She is quite unlikeable, is a continuation of a presidency that most people think has been bad for the US, and struggles to make sense if not in a scripted interview.

So yes, I also think she is a quite bad candidate. No chance she would have gone near the presidency if there was a fair primary. But of course, with the party leaving so late to replace Biden, there wasn’t some other choice. But all things considering, her best attributes are that she is neither demented, nor Trump, which would have been enough to get my vote, but there is a heavy chance that won’t be enough for her to get the presidency.
 
Donald Trump is racist, antisemitic and a fascist. He does and says racist, antisemitic fascist things regularly. Elon Musk, his funding partner, is doubly so.



The multi apartheid supporting Anti-Defamation League sits on its hands as these two men run the country towards Nazism. ADL CEO Jonathan Greenblatt even praises Elon Musk, saying he “appreciates this leadership in fighting hate.” Peas in a pod pieces of shit.

It perhaps answers Charlamagne Tha God's rare good point of asking why people are not taking Donald Trump's threat seriously? Because they are only concerned about the threat of Trump when it directly affects them. Be serious you fecking cowards.

https://www.thehandbasket.co/p/trump-hitler-adl-greenblatt
Why fixate on the response of one nonprofit organization? Well, because the ADL—with Greenblatt as their public face—has positioned itself as the arbiter of what is and is not antisemitic. Whenever you’re reading an article and it cites a figure about the number of antisemitic incidents in the country, that’s likely a stat from the ADL's annual audit.
The ADL is already discredited in many peoples eyes, as demonstrated by Wikipedia's distrust of it. Their continued failures to defend Jewish people and now their partnering with those who wish to undermine American democratic institutions should be the last straw for anyone who cares about democracy.
 
That word has lost all meaning. Democrats use fascist in the same way Republicans use communist.

It doesn’t mean anything other than person = bad and the reasons given are mostly vague.
Trump is an actual fascist as defined by his actions and words, whereas the democrats aren‘t communists in any form. Big difference.
 
Can't non-Americans understand that the reason Trump is leading is that the alternative simply isn't good enough? The Dems' main pitch is basically, "We're not Trump," and that's not enough. Kamala is seen as a continuation of the Biden administration, which has overseen:
  • Lying about the president's cognitive health, accusing those who provide evidence of his decline as right wing conspirators
  • Selecting the Democratic nominee through a closed process, bypassing a fair primary
  • Choosing an unqualified candidate when better options are available
  • Suppressing alternative candidates and limiting their media access to maintain control
  • Weaponizing the legal system against political opponents
  • Opposing voter ID and proof of citizenship requirements, undermining confidence in election integrity
  • Opening borders to unscreened immigrants, dumping them in areas cannot handle the influx, straining communities and infrastructure
  • Implementing reckless economic policies and massive spending, ignoring inflation and the deficit which has grown rampant
  • Financing in an unpopular war in Ukraine and financing one side in a conflict the international courts have called a plausible genocide
  • Defunding the police and changing bail laws, releasing violent criminals, harming communities, and promoting lawlessness
  • Continuing liability exemptions for pharma, pushing a 72-shot vaccine schedule without evaluating cumulative effects
The problem isn't just Trump—it's the lack of a compelling alternative
I‘m too lazy to dissect this, but most of the statements here are factually wrong. Most of it is regurgitated disinformation.
 
Look, I fundamentally disagree with the timing and characterization of these revelations. The label of 'fascist' for Trump doesn't quite resonate with me, given the four years he was in office. If his intent had been to establish fascist policies, the COVID-19 pandemic would have provided a perfect opportunity. In contrast, while other liberal democratic governments in the West (e.g., Italy, Spain, New Zealand, Australia, France, Germany, Canada) were enacting drastic nationwide lockdowns, mandating masks, severely restricting travel, and pushing vaccine mandates, Trump’s response was notably restrained for someone labeled as a fascist. His approach was decentralized, focusing on individual states' autonomy rather than imposing federal-level fascist mandates. And, during the post-George Floyd protests, he had the chance to play the classic dictator card and impose martial law—but, strangely enough, he didn’t. He just left it to state authorities. Oh, and he somehow managed to avoid bombing or invading any random countries during his term—definitely not what we’d expect from a textbook fascist.

So, the rhetoric about Trump being the second coming of Hitler feels overblown. You may not like him—and that’s fine—but let’s be accurate when assigning labels that don’t quite fit.

If we’re talking fascist tendencies, let’s aim at Dubya and Cheney. The same cnuts whose disastrous neocon agenda in the Middle East killed hundreds of thousands, and whose Patriot Act—a massive assault on citizens' rights—fits the authoritarian bill a lot better. But, of course, they’re now whitewashed and celebrated as 'defenders of democracy' by both liberal and conservative media—and even by four-star generals!

You disagree that he's a fascist because you apparently support him (or are at a minimum amenable to his policies) and as such, don't want to deal with the moral stain of being perceived as supporting a fascist. That's on you, not Kelly, Milley, Mattis, or anyone else in here. The people who actually worked with Trump on a daily basis and who know what his behavior is like in private would seem to be good references about what he's actually like.

Take for instance the case where Trump suggested protestors should be shot.

https://www.npr.org/2022/05/09/1097517470/trump-esper-book-defense-secretary

There are countless cases where Trump's personal conversations were fascistic in nature, where he was talked down from a ledge by the various generals, Bolton, and many others. So at the end of the day, you're going to have to ask yourself why you're spending so much time defending someone who is described as a fascist to the core by people who actually worked with him.
 
The Republican party is always going to have some connection to fascism through nationalism and the protection of corporate power. What wasn't there before is an aspiring dictator willing to suspend the constitution to remain in power because he lost and wants to remain president to stay out of prison. Trump is somewhat unique in that he's a habitual criminal obsessed with power and self-aggrandizement.
It is a lot worse than that. The Republicans are willing to abandon the constitution to remain in power indefinitely, and Trump is their vehicle to make it happen. They chose not to impeach him twice.

There are a lot of techniques that fascists used to come to power, that are used by the Republicans currently (as far back as the 90’s). These include creating alternative realities, lies that are so outrageous they are perceived as true, finding a common thing for the people to hate (immigrants), whipping up hate against their opponents, promising they will cleanse corruption, promising they will restore the country to greatness (make America great again).

Forget Mussolini, the Nazis were the masters of these techniques. It is no accident either that Trump refers to them often.
 
She is quite unlikeable, is a continuation of a presidency that most people think has been bad for the US, and struggles to make sense if not in a scripted interview.

So yes, I also think she is a quite bad candidate. No chance she would have gone near the presidency if there was a fair primary. But of course, with the party leaving so late to replace Biden, there wasn’t some other choice. But all things considering, her best attributes are that she is neither demented, nor Trump, which would have been enough to get my vote, but there is a heavy chance that won’t be enough for her to get the presidency.
That she is unlikeable is highly subjective. What makes her unlikeable? I don't see it.
 
Trump isn’t that unique he is just less effective. Bush Jr actual stole a election something which Trump couldn’t do.

If fascism is hints at authoritarianism, nationalism and the protection of corporate power then we are back again to just vibes. Which imo doesn’t work.


In the same interview Harris agreed with Trump immigration policy.

It doesn’t come across as serious to call your political opponent a fascist and then agree with them on policy.

You can be a fascist and also have a number of policies that are sensible. Being a fascist doesn't automatically mean nothing you say can ever be sensible.

Trump is an actual fascist as defined by his actions and words, whereas the democrats aren‘t communists in any form. Big difference.

He is certainly a proto-fascist:

protofascist movements display some of the common characteristics of fascism—such as the scapegoating of ethnic or religious minorities, the glorification of violence, and the promotion of the Führerprinzip (“leadership principle”), the belief that the party and the state should have a single leader with absolute power

It's hard to know whether MAGA would qualify as totalitarian.
 
So at the end of the day, you're going to have to ask yourself why you're spending so much time defending someone who is described as a fascist to the core by people who actually worked with him.
He doesn't have to ask himself at all, he completely knows why. Money.
 
That she is unlikeable is highly subjective. What makes her unlikeable? I don't see it.
You are talking to a techbro who adores Elon Musk and Gretchen Whitmer simultaneously. His mind works in mysterious ways.

Harris is likeable. Empirical evidence points to her being likeable, as her approvals rocketed when voters saw more of her. Being liked and being supported are different things though, even though they correlate to some degrees.
 

At least he's giving us dates now on when exactly America was "Great" that needs to be revisited. You know all that slavery business was when the country was strong. The right people knew their place I guess.
 


.. wha? Are they crazy? The man who moved the embassy in Israel to Jerusalem, the man who told Bibi in a call just a few days ago "Do what you have to do" and that he was "impressed by the pager attack", who a month ago said the Biden administration was holding Israel back from achieving their goals, the man who literally imposed a "Muslim ban". That is the guy they support?
 
Why do these idiots always have the worst takes about history? In 1812 the Brits kicked your door down and burned the White House. Can anybody imagine that happening now? The US is objectively far more powerful in every relevant metrics compared to what it was in the late 18th-early 19th century.
 
Why do these idiots always have the worst takes about history? In 1812 the Brits kicked your door down and burned the White House. Can anybody imagine that happening now? The US is objectively far more powerful in every relevant metrics compared to what it was in the late 18th-early 19th century.

Yeah, but slaves.
 
Make America Great Again has always been about going back to when the black and brown people knew their places. He's never hid it. This rally is extra meandering and nuts though. He is pointing at the media again calling them the enemy of the people. Even though honestly they all do him favors sane washing this nonsense.
 
Why do these idiots always have the worst takes about history? In 1812 the Brits kicked your door down and burned the White House. Can anybody imagine that happening now? The US is objectively far more powerful in every relevant metrics compared to what it was in the late 18th-early 19th century.

You’re looking at this through the wrong lens. What they like about those periods of time is straight white male supremacy, slavery, racial segregation, women having no rights and being treated like property and no LGBT. Anything else is just beating around the bush on what they really admire.
 
The Muslim vote will be divided this time, not 80-20 or 75-25. But something like 40 for Stein and 30-30, or something like that.

Biden has fractured the Democratic coalition that Obama (and others) built years ago.
 
The Muslim vote will be divided this time, not 80-20 or 75-25. But something like 40 for Stein and 30-30, or something like that.

Biden has fractured the Democratic coalition that Obama (and others) built years ago.
I seriously doubt Jill Stein will get 40% of any voter group.
 
You’re looking at this through the wrong lens. What they like about those periods of time is straight white male supremacy, slavery, racial segregation, women having no rights and being treated like property and no LGBT. Anything else is just beating around the bush on what they really admire.
I mean, that's true, but at the same time, the average rich man now is enjoying luxury levels above what the biggest slaveholders back then had access to, mostly due to a more open and equitable society and the US's global presence. It's the utter stupidity of that stance that astounds me, you want to trade your security, your abundant choices from cuisine to clothing to literature to architecture so on and so forth just so you can enjoy the social prestige of being first class citizens? Imagine pining for a time when you can lose a limb from a simple infection or have horse shit or human excrement dumped on your head as you walked the street, because that was the norm then. There's an experiment by the Libertarians when they wanted to create their idyllic society by setting up a town and they had to flee because of a bear infestation due to nobody picking up the trash, that's the society they are longing for?
 
Always siding with the dictators, fascists and autocrats....



Has he ever had a nice thing to say about a Westen European Leader?

Orban is his role model...







and Trump and the Heritage foundation's Project 2025 plans for America look very much like Orbans playbook...

Stamp out consenting voices in the media.
Remove checks and balances
Create an oligarchy with key people loyal to Orban controlling sectors.
Hardline immigration policy
Entrenched Christianity into the constitution.
 
I mean, that's true, but at the same time, the average rich man now is enjoying luxury levels above what the biggest slaveholders back then had access to, mostly due to a more open and equitable society and the US's global presence. It's the utter stupidity of that stance that astounds me, you want to trade your security, your abundant choices from cuisine to clothing to literature to architecture so on and so forth just so you can enjoy the social prestige of being first class citizens? Imagine pining for a time when you can lose a limb from a simple infection or have horse shit or human excrement dumped on your head as you walked the street, because that was the norm then. There's an experiment by the Libertarians when they wanted to create their idyllic society by setting up a town and they had to flee because of a bear infestation due to nobody picking up the trash, that's the society they are longing for?

:lol:

Don’t get me wrong mate, I totally agree with you on how ridiculous it is and how little sense it makes. However I can’t put myself in the shoes of someone who views themselves as a superior race or wants a stratified society because of my skin color, so I can’t try to rationalize why they might prefer that over all the objectively better things that they have now, but it’s very obvious that they do.
 
Crazy for Muslim leaders to endorse Trump.

Crazy for those claiming to protect Jewish people to do so also.


Is American democracy important or not? The complicity of media and orgs like the ADL is disgusting.
 
You are talking to a techbro who adores Elon Musk and Gretchen Whitmer simultaneously. His mind works in mysterious ways.

Harris is likeable. Empirical evidence points to her being likeable, as her approvals rocketed when voters saw more of her. Being liked and being supported are different things though, even though they correlate to some degrees.
:cool:

Slightly more serious, I still have to meet a person in real life* that likes or even not at least mildly dislike Harris.

* Of course in the online echo-chambers that is very different.

And yeah, I think Whitmer or Shapiro would have crushed Trump.
 
Crazy for Muslim leaders to endorse Trump.

Crazy for those claiming to protect Jewish people to do so also.


Is American democracy important or not? The complicity of media and orgs like the ADL is disgusting.


What actually is American democracy these days. When you actually consider the shit show that is a woefully out of date electoral and political system.

All it is now is a total circus, total chaos that's well we'll beyond the influence of just dishonest politicians.

The whole system is corrupted and the people in it are corrupted.

The land of the "free" ?

The forefathers must be turning in their graves.
 
:cool:

Slightly more serious, I still have to meet a person in real life* that likes or even not at least mildly dislike Harris.

* Of course in the online echo-chambers that is very different.

And yeah, I think Whitmer or Shapiro would have crushed Trump.
She's not my cup of tea but to say that nobody likes her besides terminally online people means you are dismissing every single opinion polling results, including those from non partisan organisation like Pew or Gallup since she entered the race.

Harris is decently liked, even with all the current spotlight. Of course, public opinion is fickle as we have seen the rehabilitation of W after he left office with historically low favourables, but it's still the only really relevant metric when we are measuring whether a politician is likeable.
 
:cool:

Slightly more serious, I still have to meet a person in real life* that likes or even not at least mildly dislike Harris.

* Of course in the online echo-chambers that is very different.

And yeah, I think Whitmer or Shapiro would have crushed Trump.
Harris is wildly popular in California and people like her.
 
What actually is American democracy these days. When you actually consider the shit show that is a woefully out of date electoral and political system.

All it is now is a total circus, total chaos that's well we'll beyond the influence of just dishonest politicians.

The whole system is corrupted and the people in it are corrupted.

The land of the "free" ?

The forefathers must be turning in their graves.
They are the ones who created the electoral college in the first place intentionally. The constitution says the president is chosen by electors, not the people.
 
It's a meme slowpoke - but hey, you opted for that instead of engaging with the actual point, you know, the one with sentences and words and stuff.
Ah right. I thought memes were supposed to be funny. My bad.

Can't non-Americans understand that the reason Trump is leading is that the alternative simply isn't good enough? The Dems' main pitch is basically, "We're not Trump," and that's not enough. Kamala is seen as a continuation of the Biden administration, which has overseen:
  • Lying about the president's cognitive health, accusing those who provide evidence of his decline as right wing conspirators
  • Selecting the Democratic nominee through a closed process, bypassing a fair primary
  • Choosing an unqualified candidate when better options are available
  • Suppressing alternative candidates and limiting their media access to maintain control
  • Weaponizing the legal system against political opponents
  • Opposing voter ID and proof of citizenship requirements, undermining confidence in election integrity
  • Opening borders to unscreened immigrants, dumping them in areas cannot handle the influx, straining communities and infrastructure
  • Implementing reckless economic policies and massive spending, ignoring inflation and the deficit which has grown rampant
  • Financing in an unpopular war in Ukraine and financing one side in a conflict the international courts have called a plausible genocide
  • Defunding the police and changing bail laws, releasing violent criminals, harming communities, and promoting lawlessness
  • Continuing liability exemptions for pharma, pushing a 72-shot vaccine schedule without evaluating cumulative effects
The problem isn't just Trump—it's the lack of a compelling alternative
You provide a great lot of words without real substance to them. Kamala might lose. If she does it's because she lacks charisma, possibly because the economy isn't working for enough people. None of the points you raise are relevant to anyone on the fence. They're the talking points of the fully committed.
 
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There's an experiment by the Libertarians when they wanted to create their idyllic society by setting up a town and they had to flee because of a bear infestation due to nobody picking up the trash, that's the society they are longing for?
They long for a society where no one tells them to eat their vegetables, go to bed, and sit up straight. Libertarian is a developmental stage between larvae and pupae.
 
It's hard to know whether MAGA would qualify as totalitarian.
Shall we wait to find out or stop them now?
There's an experiment by the Libertarians when they wanted to create their idyllic society by setting up a town and they had to flee because of a bear infestation due to nobody picking up the trash, that's the society they are longing for?
That‘s pretty funny, imagine living in a town where everyone does whatever they want.
 
Can't non-Americans understand that the reason Trump is leading is that the alternative simply isn't good enough?

Apparently they can’t. Even a glancing familiarity with facts debunks at least half that list.
 
Michelle Obama is a better orator than Barrack Obama. Kinda a shame she detests politics.

Can't non-Americans understand that the reason Trump is leading is that the alternative simply isn't good enough?

Apparently they can’t. Even a glancing familiarity with facts debunks at least half that list.
I follow a single rule, if there's a choice between a fascist and non-fascist, I choose the latter.