Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[Classical Mechanic]

how is that disagreeing with me?

You disagreed with my reasoning. Do you really think the CAF would be so left wing and middle class if it was a completely open board?

 

[Massive Spanner]

You disagreed with my reasoning. Do you really think the CAF would be so left wing and middle class if it was a completely open board?

Yes.

Pretty sure we had this conversation already and @Damien gave examples of other forums that are basically the exact same.

The internet in general is dominated by younger and therefore more left-leaning people. And forums mainly attract middle-class, educated people.

 

[MadMike]

@Massive Spanner @Classical Mechanic I always confused you two.

Probably the two-word name, double-s on the first word and the fact a spanner is a mechanic's tool.

I'm gonna make two alt accounts: Massive Mechanic and Classical Spanner. See how that goes down.

 

[Cheesy]

And that's my point really. There are solutions to the Irish border issue, but Brexiteers (and not just the DUP) don't like any of them. They also hate the compromise positions, but attack Remainers for not doing more to facilitate their viewpoint.

It's been three years and we're no closer to finding a solution to Brexit that satisfies Brexiteers, until we get to a point where they come up with a workable solution they actually want I'm not sure what we can do for them.

Their ideal solution at this point is pretty much no deal, which is basically tantamount to not having any solution at all because you recognise none exist.

 

[Minimalist]

You disagreed with my reasoning. Do you really think the CAF would be so left wing and middle class if it was a completely open board?

Look at other places online with big interaction. Right wingers are there but they’re always smaller in number despite the noise they make.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Yes.

Pretty sure we had this conversation already and @Damien gave examples of other forums that are basically the exact same.

The internet in general is dominated by younger and therefore more left-leaning people. And forums mainly attract middle-class, educated people.

That's a fair point, it seems logical enough.

 

[JPRouve]

The problem with the left-right conversation is that by US-UK standards I'm probably a raging communist when by french standards I'm center right.

 

[711]

@711 is old

Considerably older than you of course, and wiser and more knowledgeable too, naturally.

I voted Remain but this thread did almost change my mind at one point I must admit. I came to accept it as just unbalanced, with a lot of contributors who don't like Britain or don't live in it. In real life I haven't come across many people who believe absolutely everything about Remain or Brexit is one hundred percent right or wrong, most have tried to weigh up the pros and cons of both sides of the arguments as best they can, but that seems to be an alien concept in this thread, so it has become rather tedious I'm afraid.

 

[Minimalist]

The problem with the left-right conversation is that by US-UK standards I'm probably a raging communist when by french standards I'm center right.

Simple solution: ignore Murica. They’re too far gone. As you say, what they think is left wing is what we would call the Tories.

 

[Brwned]

I do find it strange that given the country is split right down the middle on this issue, the Remain side is so over represented in this thread. I know not everyone posting in it is from the UK which skews it a bit, but you would still have thought there would be more Brexiters in here making their case.

It's odd to me that this forum is majority left leaning, but irrespective of that the Brexit voters are definitely underrepresented. Which seems a pretty clear indication that the atmosphere towards Leave voters is so oppressive that there's no reason to get involved. Lots of people on here celebrate that atmosphere too, while simultaneously taking the piss out of Leave voters for not having a voice. It's a win win for people of that persuasion, and while they might not be the majority they're certainly vocal enough to shape the overall conversation.

@Massive Spanner's point about Forum demographics in general does make sense though

 

[Adebesi]

The problem with the left-right conversation is that by US-UK standards I'm probably a raging communist when by french standards I'm center right.

UK and US standards are quite different to be fair. We may be quite a right wing country but we're nowhere near the US.

 

[NinjaFletch]

Their ideal solution at this point is pretty much no deal, which is basically tantamount to not having any solution at all because you recognise none exist.

Yeah, but I don't think no-deal is even really thought of as a solution. It's just the new, undefined fantasy position that people can attach whatever they want to. As soon as Brexit becomes defined in any way people don't want that Brexit.

 

[Cheesy]

Yeah, but I don't think no-deal is even really thought of as a solution. It's just the new, undefined fantasy position that people can attach whatever they want to. As soon as Brexit becomes defined in any way people don't want that Brexit.

Absolutely, as I say it's literally the absence of a solution that's somehow come to be considered as a viable option.

 

[Massive Spanner]

The problem with the left-right conversation is that by US-UK standards I'm probably a raging communist when by french standards I'm center right.

I don't even know what I am anymore, somewhere in the middle I guess. I'm pro abortion, same sex marriage, and generally legalizing whatever the Dutch have already legalized, but I'm against welfare states and wasting (imo) tax payer money on people who can't be arsed to work. I'm very much a believer that people should work to get what they want in life (unless they genuinely can't, obviously), so I dunno, I'm like half leftie half righty, or something, somewhere in the middle I guess.

I don't like the idea that you need to be a leftie to be pro EU, or that being pro EU is a leftie thing, because I don't think it's true. The EU is inherently beneficial for my country, and for me, and that's why I'm pro EU, for purely selfish reasons, not some ideology I have.

Anyway, wildly off topic.

 

[JPRouve]

UK and US standards are quite different to be fair. We may be quite a right wing country but we're nowhere near the US.

I know but the bipartism in the UK doesn't allow nuances either. France is also a right wing country but the political landscape is larger.

 

[Silva]

I don't even know what I am anymore, somewhere in the middle I guess. I'm pro abortion, same sex marriage, and generally legalizing whatever the Dutch have already legalized, but I'm against welfare states and wasting (imo) tax payer money on people who can't be arsed to work. I'm very much a believer that people should work to get what they want in life (unless they genuinely can't, obviously), so I dunno, I'm like half leftie half righty, or something, somewhere in the middle I guess.

I don't like the idea that you need to be a leftie to be pro EU, or that being pro EU is a leftie thing, because I don't think it's true. The EU is inherently beneficial for my country, and for me, and that's why I'm pro EU, for purely selfish reasons, not some ideology I have.

Anyway, wildly off topic.

"i'm alright jack"

 

[Smores]

Honestly what is the point with some of you? It becomes 10 extreme remainers (ironically most are not even from the UK) against 1 leaver which you continually patronise, insult and belittle. Then you proclaim victory because the leaver can't be bothered to make any further points without being insulted about his opinion.

Who has claimed victory? This thread is a discussion of what will and won't work with some moaning about parliament thrown in. The solutions discussed are nearly all brexit solutions so i don't know why you'd be portraying it as a remainer/leaver thing.

If your opinion is incorrect what response do you expect? You have a right to hold your opinion, you have a right to state your opinion but you don't have a right not to be politely told why its wrong

P.s fecking snowflake

 

[Adisa]

 

[Josep Dowling]

I'm not even an extreme Remainer. I recognise there are severe problems within the EU and I find a lot of the People's Vote mob to be cringe inducing as feck. But I'm tired of Brexiteers who, after their arguments get dismantled with ease, resort to moaning about how Remainers aren't being nice to them instead of recognising that their arguments are incorrect and that a bit of introspection might come in handy. Apologies if I came across as a dick at all because I don't mean to - it's just that it's fecking tiresome to see Brexiteers trying to defend this whole process over and over again without actually mounting any coherent arguments, precisely because there are none.

We can all agree it's been a disaster from day one. A small margin victory should never have been allowed to stand which has created this mess. Of the people who voted at the time is was 50/50. The whole country was divided, and probably still is to a degree. And as with any government decision they end up doing a half washed attempt at appeasing everyone. I voted leave, I am bothered if we remained now? Honestly no. Do I think we should still leave? Yes, provided key issues such as trade are sorted out properly. Once they have a deal in place should this go back to a second referendum? Yes.

Great, so where are you putting the border between the UK and the EU? If it's not on the island of Ireland is it in the sea between NI and rUK? Or are you suggesting that we don't need a border at all, in which case are you advocating a Single Market arrangement?

I have already stated what I think would be a common sense approach but clearly that is never going to happen. Governments and unions can change laws and legislation as they want if they truly want something to change. Should the EU bend over backward for us? Obviously no, they need to protect their interests first. But I am sure they could be a bit more accommodating than they are.

 

[Adebesi]

@Massive Spanner Being pro EU most definitely isnt a leftie thing, there might be a large correlation but they are not the same thing at all. Corbyn is anti EU, McDonnell is anti EU, I daresay they are both to the left of most people in here.

 

[711]

UK and US standards are quite different to be fair. We may be quite a right wing country but we're nowhere near the US.

I'm not sure you can say the UK is actually right wing, even the Tories accept many aspects of the welfare state, albeit through gritted teeth.

To answer @JPRouve though, is it true to say that there is much larger support for the far right in France than there is in the UK? It seems that way to me, but of course I'm viewing it through the British media.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

UK and US standards are quite different to be fair. We may be quite a right wing country but we're nowhere near the US.

The French are also more right wing than the UK in some regards too.

 

[afrocentricity]

Ok y'all getting carried away again. I may have missed posts here and there, but to my mind the leave voters that have posted in here haven't been subjected to abuse. It's been more level headed than I'd expect if you were a remainer attempting to challenge leavers on a forum/community with a leave majority for example.

Where are the examples of Brexiters getting hounded off of here by anything more than a good question? I must have missed it...

I don't even know what I am anymore, somewhere in the middle I guess. I'm pro abortion, same sex marriage, and generally legalizing whatever the Dutch have already legalized, but I'm against welfare states and wasting (imo) tax payer money on people who can't be arsed to work. I'm very much a believer that people should work to get what they want in life (unless they genuinely can't, obviously), so I dunno, I'm like half leftie half righty, or something, somewhere in the middle I guess.

I don't like the idea that you need to be a leftie to be pro EU, or that being pro EU is a leftie thing, because I don't think it's true. The EU is inherently beneficial for my country, and for me, and that's why I'm pro EU, for purely selfish reasons, not some ideology I have.

Anyway, wildly off topic.

I think a lot of people reside in the middle. The left right extreme position is something that gets thrown around in internet battles. But I'm pretty sure it's more complex than that, people have varying positions on various things.

 

[NinjaFletch]

I have already stated what I think would be a common sense approach but clearly that is never going to happen. Governments and unions can change laws and legislation as they want if they truly want something to change. Should the EU bend over backward for us? Obviously no, they need to protect their interests first. But I am sure they could be a bit more accommodating than they are.

Oh you have misunderstood. I completely understand that your goal is to have an open border between NI and ROI.

That is the goal though. So how are you going to go about achieving it? Are you going to insist on a border in the Irish Sea? Or are you going to keep Britain part of the Single Market? If it's neither of those two things, what is your proposed solution?

 

[Smores]

Ok y'all getting carried away again. I may have missed posts here and there, but to my mind the leave voters that have posted in here haven't been subjected to abuse. It's been more level headed than I'd expect if you were a remainer attempting to challenge leavers on a forum/community with a leave majority for example.

Where are the examples of Brexiters getting hounded off of here by anything more than a good question? I must have missed it...

I can understand it being daunting because they're often asked to square the circle that is Mays red lines and none of us remainers can do that but the leavers rather than admitting that refuse to even engage the question.

 

[Silva]

https://www.itv.com/news/utv/2019-04-08/sinn-fein-to-meet-corbyn-for-brexit-talks/

 

[Maagge]

Oh you have misunderstood. I completely understand that your goal is to have an open border between NI and ROI.

That is the goal though. So how are you going to go about achieving it? Are you going to insist on a border in the Irish Sea? Or are you going to keep Britain part of the Single Market? If it's neither of those two things, what is your proposed solution?

If you have an open border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland wouldn't you need to do customs checks on all goods coming from Ireland to the EU? That would be a real kick in the teeth for the Republic of Ireland.

 

[Silva]

If you have an open border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland wouldn't you need to do customs checks on all goods coming from Ireland to the EU? That would be a real kick in the teeth for the Republic of Ireland.

that's what the backstop is for, to prevent regulatory diverge in NI from RoI, don't need customs checks if they have the same standards

 

[Stanley Road]

Maybe if the leaver's could actually present perfectly logical reasons and facts for why leaving the EU won't be a terrible thing for the UK

You can read some opinions here
https://www.quora.com/Can-a-Brexit-...leaving-the-largest-trading-bloc-in-the-world

 

[GloryHunter07]

It's not down to me to make a workable solution.

Brexit in one sentence. Bravo!

 

[Paul the Wolf]

This guy has historical data to prove that a country has apparently, could be more bollox but you never know.

The historical data is that if you don't have a frictionless border, then goods will be delayed, there are many places around the world to prove that. If you rely on WTO rules alone, you have to apply the same rules to everyone, if you don't want a hard border in Ireland both sides of the border have to be in the CU and SM.

But as the Uk want to have it both ways, there is no answer.

 

[JPRouve]

I'm not sure you can say the UK is actually right wing, even the Tories accept many aspects of the welfare state, albeit through gritted teeth.

To answer @JPRouve though, is it true to say that there is much larger support for the far right in France than there is in the UK? It seems that way to me, but of course I'm viewing it through the British media.

I wouldn't know how to compare. The far right is still for a large part a protest vote against other parties mainly PS and LR(our versions of Labour and Tory). When it comes to elections that matter for people, the far right is fairly weak and keep in mind that people elected a guy without a party as their president instead of supporting the far right and they are insignificant in the parliament(8 out of 577).

 

[NinjaFletch]

You can read some opinions here
https://www.quora.com/Can-a-Brexit-...leaving-the-largest-trading-bloc-in-the-world

Sorry, which of these are you claiming is logical?

 

[Sweet Square]

Good video.

I'm know someone in a similar position, its basically the conflict between wanting cheap workers/poor working conditions and hating immigrates.

 

[That'sHernandez]

My bad idea:

If everyone on the forum (preferably the country) gives me £1, I'd end up being quite rich/ Please could everyone do this? Go Fund Me page to follow.

 

[Brwned]

Ok y'all getting carried away again. I may have missed posts here and there, but to my mind the leave voters that have posted in here haven't been subjected to abuse. It's been more level headed than I'd expect if you were a remainer attempting to challenge leavers on a forum/community with a leave majority for example.

Where are the examples of Brexiters getting hounded off of here by anything more than a good question? I must have missed it...

I'll post some evidence of the oppressive attitude to non-Remain voters in here later.

No-one is saying that Leave voters are more welcoming to Remainers. What people are saying that both sides are intolerant of the other, demonise the other, and make any conversation very difficult. Which is the explicit objective of some people in here. The fact that the one side might be worse does not make what the other side is doing a good thing.

The entire atmosphere is toxic. And when people on the other side, or on neither side, say that, the response is to dismiss it as illegitimate or make a sarcastic jibe. Always. There is a fundamental intolerance to that notion.

 

[Stanley Road]

No, I mean literally google your question: "What preparation have eu countries done?" and the second result is a European Commission press release entitled: "Brexit Preparedness: EU completes preparations for possible "no-deal" scenario on 12 April".

In case you're interested, the first result is a BBC article outlining the same press release and going into further detail for several individual member nations of the EU.

There's a lot of words in that article but it doesn't actually say much apart from subsidizing fishermen that will no longer have an income, is that preparation. "This includes checks and controls for customs", In Holland they tried to find 1000 new people to cope with these checks, they got 500 applicants. Basically is vague, very EU like.

 

[Massive Spanner]

You can read some opinions here
https://www.quora.com/Can-a-Brexit-...leaving-the-largest-trading-bloc-in-the-world

Well let's take those main mentioned answers

Reduced immigration.

All evidence so far points to this not happening

Not having to send money to the EU.

True, but you'll also lose a hell of a lot of money by being out of the EU, a lot more than what you put in, this is based on hard economic facts.

Less EU regulation and standardisation.

The UK has already said they plan to keep EU laws in place post Brexit so.. not true.

Increased trade with the rest of the world.

Unlikely. The EU already has trade deals with the world's biggest economies, better ones than the UK would likely get going it alone, but we all know this

Increased sovereignty.

Highly debatable, what sovereignty has the EU actually taken away?

Increased British exceptionalism and nationalism.

Well yeah, but .. is that really a good thing, going by the last 2 and a half years?

The main problem will all of the above is that if you just talk about them in isolation they all sound great, but when you actually compare them to what the UK has at this moment in time by being in the EU, they all look like much worse options for the UK.

 

[NinjaFletch]

I'll post some evidence of the oppressive attitude to non-Remain voters in here later.

No-one is saying that Leave voters are more welcoming to Remainers. What people are saying that both sides are intolerant of the other, demonise the other, and make any conversation very difficult. Which is the explicit objective of some people in here. The fact that the one side might be worse does not make what the other side is doing a good thing. The entire atmosphere is toxic.

If you do, I'd love to see how much of that evidence is accompanied by initial hostility on the part of the non-Remain voter.

I mean, your posts today came in light of Josep's initial post which can not be described as anything other than bellicose. If that gets peoples backs up is that any surprise?

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I'll post some evidence of the oppressive attitude to non-Remain voters in here later.

No-one is saying that Leave voters are more welcoming to Remainers. What people are saying that both sides are intolerant of the other, demonise the other, and make any conversation very difficult. Which is the explicit objective of some people in here. The fact that the one side might be worse does not make what the other side is doing a good thing.

The entire atmosphere is toxic. And when people on the other side, or on neither side, say that, the response is to dismiss it as illegitimate or make a sarcastic jibe. Always. There is a fundamental intolerance to that notion.

But you calling everyone ignorant is fine. Congratulations.