Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
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Is it really though? Where did the expectation that discourse between people with different ideologies would be friction free come from? Also this sentiment seems to be getting pushed by the same people that are complaining about free speech and outrage culture... To me it just feels artificial and exaggerated at times.
You often hear people complaining about the intolerance/abuse/etc, but then you dig deeper, look over the preceding discussion, and it amounts to nothing more than someone being challenged on their beliefs by someone who is getting fed up by the whole experience.
Anyway I'll await your examples.
I don't think remainers have to justify anything. We were happy with the status quo, we wanted it to continue, we liked being part of Europe with all the benefits that confers. Personally, I see no negatives at all to being a member of the EU.
I was 17 when we had the last referendum, and although I was just too young to vote I was involved in doorstep canvassing on behalf of the "yes" campaign. I've been European for my whole adult life and now I'm at retirement age, it's being taken away from me.
I'm extremely upset about losing my European citizen status, losing my right to vote for MEPs, losing the freedom to easily travel to and live within European countries. I can't think of another domestic political issue that's had such an impact on the way I feel, and I've been voting for 42 years now.
I was 17 when we had the last referendum, and although I was just too young to vote I was involved in doorstep canvassing on behalf of the "yes" campaign. I've been European for my whole adult life and now I'm at retirement age, it's being taken away from me.
I'm extremely upset about losing my European citizen status, losing my right to vote for MEPs, losing the freedom to easily travel to and live within European countries. I can't think of another domestic political issue that's had such an impact on the way I feel, and I've been voting for 42 years now.
Well said.
Problem is Brexiters can't justify anything and get upset when they make themselves look foolish.
Not really thats the level of stupidity we are dealing with
Well if the old people die then at least Stratchan will get what he wants. Reduced immigration and euthanasia. Win win.
I wonder if calling him a fascist because he espoused fascist beliefs will make it on to Brwned's list of abuse...
Yup. End of discussion really. We didn’t vote to tip the cart over, they did. And they have either poor answers or no answers depending on what the current questions are. And they cry foul when people point this out.
Yeah that I get but it doesn't sound like leavers are too keen on a backstop, in which case I guess the customs would have to be between the RoI and the EU, and why would the EU/RoI agree to that? Admittedly I haven't thought very long about it.
Well they wouldn't, and I think it would cause so much offence to even ask that even May and her band of fools have been smart enough not to seriously propose it.
the whole point of the backstop is that there's nothing in NI that would need to be checked, it would effectively stay in the CU/SM by copying all their minimum standards
Hypocrisy at its finest.
Hypocrisy isn't involved here. He basically said that he has the right to tell you something politely, he didn't say that he doesn't have the right to not be polite.
Fair enough, the British press go on about le Pen a lot, maybe they make her out to be more significant than she is. The British far right is pitifully small. Some might say UKIP are far right, they're certainly moving that way, but I suspect once Brexit's sorted they'll fade away.
So we have to put up with them for another twenty years?
Perfectly true but leave was more about emotions; taking back control. Great idea. But taking back control for what purpose.
The leave campaign was a classic. It resonated with peoples emotions. None of it had to be true or correct. That was not the point. The point was to offer some kind of utopian place where Great Britain was again the centre of the world.
All about emotions, with plenty of lies thrown in to make it even more seductive.
And of course over 17million trusting souls fell for it. It was all far too easy.
Now go and make it reality.
I have done my bit. I have voted leave (not me by the way).
Don't bother me with facts. Just make it happen and make it happen NOW.
The Spanish have done stuff to protect their tourist industry and to try and manage the British expats living in Spain.
A lot of it's very mundane stuff designed to get them through the holiday season, like not insisting that UK tourists have an international driving permit as well as their current UK/EU version photo licence. They've also promised to maintain the current EHIC - emergency medical cover scheme for tourists. Basically a bunch of things done to get us through a few months of no-deal without killing their tourist industry or turning their hospitals into financial gatekeepers.
For residents it's to give the changeover time longer - easier to convert UK driving licence to Spanish, continuation of current health cover whether that's cover because you're working or paying into the social security or because the UK government has transferred your (pensioner) health cover to Spain. Continuation of current tax arrangements for pensions and other income. Transitional stuff with a time limit set (3 to 12 months on most of it) to give people a chance to regularise their status - or to leave if they realise that they can't.
All with the proviso that the UK must make the same emergency reciprocal agreements to protect Spanish nationals in the UK.
It's not obvious what they'll do if they can't get Spanish strawberries etc into the UK in a timely manner or how they'll handle Gibraltar etc - basically they're just delaying the cliff edge and hoping that we'll do the same.
"Well lets post the bits I like in the redcafe"
What did you think of the wine sellers opinion? You know, an actual businessman
May insisted it was UK wide. If and when the backstop ends, off the cliff it is unless the magical solution has been invented by then. So it's permanent.
The funny thing is everyone of those arguments in this very thread have already been proved to be wrong or unattainable even without being in the EU
You haven't read the forum posts I linked to, the guy you quoted has made his own interpretations which is not a true reflection of peoples posts on that site. Who'd have thunk, a remainer not listening to anyone but himself
I've no doubt thats true in some cases, and untrue in others. Every Leave voter in here that I've seen has said things that can only ever be antagonistic. Sometimes that was in response to people belittling them, sometimes it wasn't. I don't think either fault is solely to blame for this specific issue. I think both are unwilling to take responsibility for it, on the whole, and many people on both sides don't give a feck. The demonisation of the other has been very effective so tolerating the other side is now thought to be a dangerous thing, by a significant portion of people on both extremes of the political spectrum, and quite a few people on either side of the centre.
I think the vast majority of people in here are not ignorant. Many are more tolerant than my average friend or family member. Care to apologise for misrepresenting my view?
I don't think it should be friction free but I think it would be more constructive if the condescension was less prevalent, and the personal attacks were much less frequent.
I'm not part of that bubble that complains about free speech and engages in outrage culture. I think many of those things are as ridiculous as you do. This is just my opinion based on my very limited experience of political discussion in here. It's up to you whether you want to perceive that as part of a wider agenda, fuelled by outrage culture, or whether you just take it at face value as my opinion.
Maybe some of the things that I think are oppressive to the other side, and unconstructive, you think are just people acting fed up by illogical arguments. To be the two are not mutually exclusive. The fact one causes the other, neither justifies the other nor makes it constructive. I don't think my opinion is right, it's just a perception of a complicated issue.
To me it's problematic that people are so confident that their opinion is the right one, on issues that don't have an obvious solution. Going into an argument trying to prove you're right makes it very difficult to have a meaningful discussion.
For example, the post above from Paul is obviously him being fed up of people like me having a different opinion to people like him. I can live with that. However how he chooses to deal with that causes people who hold a different opinion to be less vocal, simply because it's not a discussion that seems worth getting involved in. It is not oppressive - I will give actual examples of that - but it's not constructive either. And it's not designed to be.
People recognise that and understand the message it communicates. It doesn't bother people on Paul's side but it does bother people who aren't on his side. That's the stuff that barely enters your radar because you sympathise with the sentiment, even if you wouldn't express the point in that way.
Another 61 votes on May's deal is a distinct possibility.What are you on about? Those are literally the bullet points at the top, not Caf related.
You mean this guy?
That's all utter bollox.
It isn't oppressive, it is just a really hard environment for leavers as they have no compelling counter arguments. Reckon there is a bunch of them lurking, just hiding in the closet.
Yep, it was. Problem is a lot of leave voters are in complete denial of this and are instead trying to use other forms of argument, which always fall flat. We've seen it on here time and time again.
What a fecking idiot!
"I am going to go out of business if I don't get seasonal workers from Europe. I voted not to be able to get seasonal workers from Europe."
And brexiters wonder why they look like idiots when having a conversation about brexit
You haven't called me ignorant yet, this is true , but criticising other people is equally as toxic and condescending as anyone else - according to search 87 times on the site but I'm not going to list them.
People are entitled to different views.
It would be better that they justify their arguments when questioned. Some people are more aggressive than others and ruder but this is life, which is why I have never put anyone on ignore nor have I ever reported anyone. Although several people have been banned for being insulting or aggressive to me.
People sometimes lose their temper because having asked on numerous occasions but they never get a straight answer.
Has anything actually happened today?
Exactly. It's hard to keep track and not conflate brexit issue and people call each other out in here all the time mostly between us remainers. It's only leavers who take issue with it.
I don't see how it makes one bit of difference if you're a leaver or remainer when discussing things like the irish border, CU, Norway +.
This is it though, all the arguments given by leavers can be swotted away quite easily, even those based on pure economic factors rather than xenophobic ones.
My brother was going on about European legislation and Europe telling the UK what it can and cannot do. It was simply countered by the fact that if the UK still wants to sell into Europe, which it will need to, then we will have to follow European regulations anyway. If we are in Europe, we in a position to shape the legislation, so we actually have more control, not less, inside the EU.
Same here, though, unlike you, I didn't even realise how much I loved being part of Europe until Brexit. It is a bit more than losing the opportunities to be part of the EU. I feel like Brexit has destroyed the perception I had of British people and the UK in general. My area voted leave by a significant margin. Now I look at my neighbours and wonder what sort of people they really are.
This should make captain euthanasia happy. Reduced immigration and reduced old people in one neat package.
I think both are true. It takes particularly thick skin to argue that leaving the EU will reduce immigration, without the evidence to support it. So people who do not have thick skin but have that as one of their primary reasons for leaving will choose not to get involved. I think there are some people who have more substantive reasons for leaving but just do not get involved because, from my perspective at least, it is an oppressive atmosphere to people with their viewpoint. That is in part generated by people.on the Leave side putting forward arguments that do not fit the facts, but that doesn't change the fact that it now exists, IMO.
I don't know you very well but my instinct is you are not ignorant. I don't think criticising other people for how they communicate their views is toxic, perfectly. That's too extreme. But yes I can understand why criticism fuels wider frustration and I'm happy to accept that I have done nothing to solve that problem.
You not being able to read and understand things properly doesn't make something else vague.
Countries within the EU have written new legislation, created new positions in potentially affected areas, published information packs and created websites to assist their people and businesses in the event of a no deal Brexit. Since the very beginning they have been consistent and coherent in their stance and preparations.
You call it "a lot of words" which leads me to suspect you don't understand what plans are? Why would EU members make concrete changes while they're still totally in the dark over what it is Britain actually want or will end up doing? Until Britain has sorted out its own shit show, plans will obviously only be words.
There is one party to Brexit which has been vague, incoherent, muddled and inconsistent and it isn't any EU member.
Said it already on here but post Brexit (and the accompanying arguements) I've been suspicious and on edge too... Wondering what a person is really thinking and what their motives may really be.
Which obviously manifests itself in here in my interactions with posters and in real life in my day to day. Bit of a wake up call tbh.... So... Thanks I guess.
Agreed - it's just so convenient when you're on your travels within Europe - will be such a shame to lose it.
Obviously more than just that, the economic reasons too, but for that reason alone, I will miss it.