Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)

[Bilbo]

"I want Ole to be a success."

I think that's the biggest problem - the feelings.
So we magnify every positives and ignore or at least downplay every negatives, negotiating with the idea that the positives far out-weight the negatives.

Thats the same accusation that is levelled at both sides of the argument. Im personally convinced that the positives outweigh the negatives, and you are convinced of the opposite. Its patronising to either side to suggest that emotions are overtaking logical thought.

 

[theklr]

"I want Ole to be a success."

I think that's the biggest problem - the feelings.
So we magnify every positives and ignore or at least downplay every negatives, negotiating with the idea that the positives far out-weight the negatives.

Football supporting is in its core based upon these kinds of feelings, otherwise you would just stop supporting any team that dont win the PL at any given season.

Because factually its pretty dumb supporting a team that isnt the best.

Deciding if Ole should be let go based on cold hard facts this early in the season is impossible, thats why we all do it from how we feel about him and the team.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

Thats the same accusation that is levelled at both sides of the argument. Im personally convinced that the positives outweigh the negatives, and you are convinced of the opposite. Its patronising to either side to suggest that emotions are overtaking logical thought.

I think the Ole out crowd that wants him gone right now are judging Ole from the angle of if he can take us back to winning major trophies and in this case I think if you weigh the positives and negatives it's not looking likely he's the man to do that.

Personally I think he's done a good job building a solid squad. The problem here is that to keep doing that top 4 is a necessity and right now I'm not so optimistic about us getting it this sesson under Ole. It's still early in the season to say top 4 is unlikely but I think if we are still struggling by December then he has to go.

 

[tomaldinho1]

The bar is superficially lower but given the money Solskjaer has had spent I don't see the glazers keeping him after a 3rd place finish and following up the next season outside of the UCL. He'll 100 percent be sacked if that's the case and rightly so.

I think to many fans fail to identify that Solskjaer is the manager and irrespective of how much of a welcoming personality he is if he fails to get consistent results he will have failed his opportunity. There's no room for sentiments we are approaching a decade with no recognised essence of competitive success. The club will further fall into mediocrity if the standards continue to slip.

Yes that was part of a longer conversation about how I feel Ole does not have the same pressure/expectation as Mou or LVG did. I agree though - personally, especially when using other teams around us as the barometer, I would expect/hope to have seen more 'progress' than we seen so far given what I see as a top 3/4 squad and with heavy spending.

 

[Gabagoo]

We'll have to really give him until the end of the season before we judge him fairly against our other recent managers.

LVG and Jose both had two full seasons with us.

If Ole gets 4th or better, then he would compare favourably to the other two. If he gets below 4th then we'd go to the cups. If he hasn't won any then I think we can conclude that no progress in results has been met.

Regardless of squad "togetherness" or average age, if Ole isn't progressing us season-by-season with comparison to LVG and Jose then there is no reason to keep him, other than for purely Top Red sentiment.

 

[Bilbo]

I think the Ole out crowd that wants him gone right now are judging Ole from the angle of if he can take us back to winning major trophies and in this case I think if you weigh the positives and negatives it's not looking likely he's the man to do that.

Personally I think he's done a good job building a solid squad. The problem here is that to keep doing that top 4 is a necessity and right now I'm not so optimistic about us getting it this sesson under Ole. It's still early in the season to say top 4 is unlikely but I think if we are still struggling by December then he has to go.

Thats the whole point though. Each side will disagree on all of the key points. You dont see that he can win us major trophies - fair enough. The jury is definitely still out on that but I think he has as good a chance as any manager that we could realistically bring in to replace him. In fact probably better because he knows these players very well by now

 

[RedSky]

We'll have to really give him until the end of the season before we judge him fairly against our other recent managers.

LVG and Jose both had two full seasons with us.

If Ole gets 4th or better, then he would compare favourably to the other two. If he gets below 4th then we'd go to the cups. If he hasn't won any then I think we can conclude that no progress in results has been met.

Regardless of squad "togetherness" or average age, if Ole isn't progressing us season-by-season with comparison to LVG and Jose then there is no reason to keep him, other than for purely Top Red sentiment.

Depends if he gets a trophy or not.

My opinion right now, is that Ole has done a very good job rebuilding our squad, it's still a work in progress but we're better off now than we were at any point under any Manager imo. Result wise, we've had highs and we've had lows. He's managed some consitent runs and then some very poor runs of form. It's a mixed bag result wise, but we've had some memorable wins against some top quality teams. We've also had some highly frustrating performances. If he ends up winning a trophy then I feel like he can leave with his head held high. If however the season tanks, then i'll be disappointed but I feel whoever is the next Manager will have a solid foundation to work with. There are still issues with the squad, but I feel like we have a solid core finally and we're no longer dependant on Pogba. Generally feel positive as a United fan, the first time since Sir Alex.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

Thats the whole point though. Each side will disagree on all of the key points. You dont see that he can win us major trophies - fair enough. The jury is definitely still out on that but I think he has as good a chance as any manager that we could realistically bring in to replace him. In fact probably better because he knows these players very well by now

Based on what? Pochettino is easily the most realistic replacement so using him as an example, why don't you think Pochettino has a better chance of giving us a trophy than Ole?

 

[sullydnl]

 

[L1nk]

Seen it all before, better alternatives will go elsewhere by the time the board wises up and realises we are going nowhere, same old

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

We are never going to win the league with Glazers + Woodward + Ole combination. Ole is overly dependent on the quality of the players to make things work and the Glazers and Woodward are never going to back him enough to give him a title winning squad. If his job has actually never been under threat then there's so much sentimentality in this appointment it can do more harm than good especially this season where top 4 is looking difficult

 

[lysglimt]

Based on what? Pochettino is easily the most realistic replacement so using him as an example, why don't you think Pochettino has a better chance of giving us a trophy than Ole?

Why do you think he HAS a better chance ? He did reach a few finals during his 5 years at Spurs- but never looked like winning either.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

Why do you think he HAS a better chance ? He did reach a few finals during his 5 years at Spurs- but never looked like winning either.

Because he's a better coach. I don't want Poch anyways but there's nothing to suggest Ole has a better chance of winning us the league than Pochettino

 

[Bilbo]

Based on what? Pochettino is easily the most realistic replacement so using him as an example, why don't you think Pochettino has a better chance of giving us a trophy than Ole?

I would throw that back and ask why you are so convinced that he will?

My position as a supporter of this club is easy right now, because I'm reasonably happy with the situation and the progress we are making. Its not perfect, but I don't need it to be perfect. Its good enough. I don't want us to change the manager.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

I would throw that back and ask why you are so convinced that he will?

My position as a supporter of this club is easy right now, because I'm reasonably happy with the situation and the progress we are making. Its not perfect, but I don't need it to be perfect. Its good enough. I don't want us to change the manager.

Because he's the better coach. Or you don't think so?

 

[Bilbo]

Because he's a better coach. I don't want Poch anyways but there's nothing to suggest Ole has a better chance of winning us the league than Pochettino

I've posted before, but it bears repeating here, how much more difficult it is to be an Ole supporter than it is to be on the other side of this argument. We see the same points recycled on here over and over again. Do you realise how much easier it is to be the one that says 'that guy would be better. he is a better coach and he'll play better football and we'll definitely be stronger if we hire him, and you're crazy for not seeing it the way I do'?

You don't ever have to justify that opinion, because that's all it is, an opinion. Meanwhile you get to use all of the defeats, all of the player mistakes, and a million other things that you can find or concoct to say that this isn't good enough. Its much easier to fling shit at something that's real, without ever really having to back up your own opinions because the reality of your opinion doesn't exist. It doesn't mean that you are wrong, but it does mean that you can't ever be proven wrong, and that's a nice cosy position to take.

The flipside of that is that not many of you guys seem to be enjoying your experience as a supporter very much right now, and that's a mindset that I really don't want to have back. I had it with Jose. Being behind this project is just an all-round much better experience for me.

 

[Majima]

We are never going to win the league with Glazers + Woodward + Ole combination. Ole is overly dependent on the quality of the players to make things work and the Glazers and Woodward are never going to back him enough to give him a title winning squad

Doesn't that make Ole a very poor manager though? A good manager improves their players and makes the most out of what they've got.

You don't need hundreds of millions to achieve that, just look at Hasenhüttl's work at Southampton with much lesser talents, and no budget (£40m net over 4 windows). But we're supposed to accept that Ole needs a few hundred million more, upon the £200m so far, to show a plan beyond counter-attacking at home vs. minnows?

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

I've posted before, but it bears repeating here, how much more difficult it is to be an Ole supporter than it is to be on the other side of this argument. We see the same points recycled on here over and over again. Do you realise how much easier it is to be the one that says 'that guy would be better. he is a better coach and he'll play better football and we'll definitely be stronger if we hire him, and you're crazy for not seeing it the way I do'?

You don't ever have to justify that opinion, because that's all it is, an opinion. Meanwhile you get to use all of the defeats, all of the player mistakes, and a million other things that you can find or concoct to say that this isn't good enough. Its much easier to fling shit at something that's real, without ever really having to back up your own opinions because the reality of your opinion doesn't exist. It doesn't mean that you are wrong, but it does mean that you can't ever be proven wrong, and that's a nice cosy position to take.

The flipside of that is that not many of you guys seem to be enjoying your experience as a supporter very much right now, and that's a mindset that I really don't want to have back. I had it with Jose. Being behind this project is just an all-round much better experience for me.

You're being hypocritical here. You're the one who first said Ole has infact a better chance of winning us major trophies than any other realistic replacement eg Pochettino. I don't think I'm taking the cozy position or the easy way out but the sensible or logical one. It's popular opinion Pochettino is a better coach than Ole. It's popular opinion that we have a squad suited to Pochettino's style and the resources to keep improving the squad. So I think it's the logical thing to say that Pochettino has a better chance of winning us trophies than Ole. We are talking about chances/odds of one coach doing better than the other not the certainty that one coach WILL do better than the other which is what you make it seem like. And when you are talking about odds you look at the factors that could affect the odds. One factor is that Pochettino is a better coach than Ole and we have players suited to his style. And this makes the odds of Pochettino winning us trophies higher than Ole's.

Can you explain why you think Ole has a better chance of winning us trophies than Pochettino? I'm genuinely interested

 

[theklr]

Doesn't that make Ole a very poor manager though? A good manager improves their players and makes the most out of what they've got.

You don't need hundreds of millions to achieve that, just look at Hasenhüttl's work at Southampton with much lesser talents, and no budget (£40m net over 4 windows). But we're supposed to accept that Ole needs a few hundred million more, upon the £200m so far, to show a plan beyond counter-attacking at home vs. minnows?

As I have said before, this is a simplistic notion. The percentage of «small club» coaches who does well with smaller resources and then succeding at the bigger clubs, is far from 100%.

 

[Bilbo]

You're being hypocritical here. You're the one who first said Ole has infact a better chance of winning us major trophies than any other realistic replacement eg Pochettino. I don't think I'm taking the cozy position or the easy way out but the sensible or logical one. It's popular opinion Pochettino is a better coach than Ole. It's popular opinion that we have a squad suited to Pochettino's style and the resources to keep improving the squad. So I think it's the logical thing to say that Pochettino has a better chance of winning us trophies than Ole. We are talking about chances/odds of one coach doing better than the other not the certainty that one coach WILL do better than the other which is what you make it seem like. And when you are talking about odds you look at the factors that could affect the odds. One factor is that Pochettino is a better coach than Ole and we have players suited to his style. And this makes the odds of Pochettino winning us trophies higher than Ole's.

Can you explain why you think Ole has a better chance of winning us trophies than Pochettino? I'm genuinely interested

Is it popular opinion? I don't see that it is at all. Many people that I speak to see him as I do, a good manager with limitations and questions marks hanging over him.

Regarding your last question it comes down to the individuals perception of how well Ole is doing. I think he is doing well, and so naturally I would think that he has a decent chance of delivering trophies, but lets be fair here. We are in a league with IMO two of the three best teams in Europe (perhaps the world) currently so winning the title is a big ask right now. We probably have a better chance of winning the CL this season, but again that's a big ask. There are teams that we are competing with that are simply better than us right now. They are at peak levels of performance and consistency right now, and United are still building towards that.

 

[Random Task]

Doesn't that make Ole a very poor manager though? A good manager improves their players and makes the most out of what they've got.

You don't need hundreds of millions to achieve that, just look at Hasenhüttl's work at Southampton with much lesser talents, and no budget (£40m net over 4 windows). But we're supposed to accept that Ole needs a few hundred million more, upon the £200m so far, to show a plan beyond counter-attacking at home vs. minnows?

The difference being, Hasenhutti built a squad capable of challenging for the EL places at best (which is not that difficult a task for an established PL club like Southampton) whereas Ole is building a squad intended to challenge for the league title. One can be achieved with minimal expenditure and good use of the clubs youth system, the other requires spending in the high millions to even get close. They are not comparable.

Besides Ranieri, who I doubt is even being considered for the position, the only manager to challenge for the league title with minimal expenditure and clever use of the clubs youth system is Poch.

 

[Andycoleno9]

He really has easy ride here. Amazing.

 

[Majima]

As I have said before, this is a simplistic notion. The percentage of «small club» coaches who does well with smaller resources and then succeding at the bigger clubs, is far from 100%.

Your point? I never said Hasenhüttl would categorically succeed if he came here. I said the hallmark of a good manager is showing the ability to improve over time and get the best out of his existing players. If a manager can imprint his philosophy without hundreds of millions, and get the best out of lesser talented players, then it's a decent bet with more resources and better players no? How is that simplistic? Whilst it's fine for someone who can't do it with hundreds of millions and much more talented players? Why do we have to settle for that?

 

[united for life]

I think he'll struggle to keep the job without CL qualification this season. The only real exceptions to that case that I can imagine are either (a) we suffer very badly with injuries, or (b) we go deep in the CL and win a domestic trophy.

I could see a scenario there, especially with the latter, where the club could conclude that another season with Ole might be the best option, and I'd probably agree with that too.

Failing that, as said, I think it would be time to part ways, but its much too early to even go there. Id rather just enjoy this season and the football first before having to worry about all that

the problem is that people concluding at this club are the Glazers. The way I see it, he was not properly backed up this summer. There were talks about a winger and a CB, probably a DM too. He got none of these.

this is the problem with the Glazers. They invest until we reach the CL, then they stop. We then miss out on CL, sack the manager and repeat.

there are still lots of challenges, other than not signing the right players. Some players in the team are not performing at the required level as well. Pogba, unfortunately, is one of them.

 

[lysglimt]

Because he's a better coach. I don't want Poch anyways but there's nothing to suggest Ole has a better chance of winning us the league than Pochettino

First of all - you didn't say league - you said trophy.

Furthermore - apart from the fact that Poch spent 5 years at Spurs without winning anything - and everything that got close, Spurs played one of their weakest matches of the season. Add to that - his horrible record against the best clubs, probably indicates that OGS has a much better chance at winning a trophy than Poch has.

 

[Will Singh]

Can we reset the poll? There could be accounts who've voted and not come on here ever since!

 

[Majima]

The difference being, Hasenhutti built a squad capable of challenging for the EL places at best (which is not that difficult a task for an established PL club like Southampton) whereas Ole is building a squad intended to challenge for the league title. One can be achieved with minimal expenditure and good use of the clubs youth system, the other requires spending in the high millions to even get close. They are not comparable.

Besides Ranieri, who I doubt is even being considered for the position, the only manager to challenge for the league title with minimal expenditure and clever use of the clubs youth system is Poch.

What? The squad Hasenhüttl inherited was destined for relegation under Hughes. They've spent £40m net in 4 windows, still with mostly the same players as under Hughes. What he's 'built' is from the training ground and his own work. To say what they're doing now is not that difficult a task is madness. If it was so easy, why wasn't Hughes or Puel doing it?

You actually believe Ole is successfully building a squad intended to challenge for the league? Going from our home record vs. the cannon fodder, It takes a lot more than spending.

I'm not saying we should pick any manager from the lower teams who's manager has improved them. Why are people thinking that? My point is a good manager doesn't need hundreds of millions to imprint himself on the team and improve them, they get the best out of what they've got currently. Then it's clear to see that if backed, they will challenge for the top trophies. Something that in my eyes, Ole has failed at over these two years.

 

[Majima]

I've posted before, but it bears repeating here, how much more difficult it is to be an Ole supporter than it is to be on the other side of this argument. We see the same points recycled on here over and over again. Do you realise how much easier it is to be the one that says 'that guy would be better. he is a better coach and he'll play better football and we'll definitely be stronger if we hire him, and you're crazy for not seeing it the way I do'?

You don't ever have to justify that opinion, because that's all it is, an opinion. Meanwhile you get to use all of the defeats, all of the player mistakes, and a million other things that you can find or concoct to say that this isn't good enough. Its much easier to fling shit at something that's real, without ever really having to back up your own opinions because the reality of your opinion doesn't exist. It doesn't mean that you are wrong, but it does mean that you can't ever be proven wrong, and that's a nice cosy position to take.

The flipside of that is that not many of you guys seem to be enjoying your experience as a supporter very much right now, and that's a mindset that I really don't want to have back. I had it with Jose. Being behind this project is just an all-round much better experience for me.

I've got simply one question to ask you. Do you enjoy players like Bruno being here? Because a top player like him certainly wants to win the top trophies. How will your experience be when our best players want to leave because we can't win anything/aren't matching their standards i wonder.

That is why it's important for me as a fan to uphold the club's standards, regardless of who they are.

 

[Zen86]

That is why it's important for me as a fan to uphold the club's standards, regardless of who they are.

Not all heroes wear capes

 

[Bilbo]

I've got simply one question to ask you. Do you enjoy players like Bruno being here? Because a top player like him certainly wants to win the top trophies. How will your experience be when our best players want to leave because we can't win anything/aren't matching their standards i wonder.

That is why it's important for me as a fan to uphold the club's standards, regardless of who they are.

You're using a player that Ole signed as a subject to warn us of what we might not have if we stick with Ole? Solid

 

[Majima]

Not all heroes wear capes

It's true. If it was SAF in the chair performing how Ole has over the past two years, (removing all past successes, just talking how much i hold a lot of sentiments towards him, i became a fan of football to begin with because of him), i wouldn't let him get away with anything too just based on who he is. Maybe I'm different though.

 

[Majima]

You're using a player that Ole signed as a subject to warn us of what we might not have if we stick with Ole? Solid

Well Bruno when he first joined said he wants to win the league, champions league, everything. That's his mentality. Do you think he will stick around for long if we can't offer him that? It might not be next year, but give it a few years at the most. It's naïve to think otherwise.

So you don't think he will leave if we don't win anything?

 

[Zen86]

It's true. If it was SAF in the chair performing how Ole has over the past two years, (removing all past successes, just talking how much i hold a lot of sentiments towards him, i became a fan of football to begin with because of him), i wouldn't let him get away with anything too just based on who he is. Maybe I'm different though.

Come on, this upholding standards stuff is basically a fancy way of saying you complain when things aren’t going well.

 

[Majima]

Come on, this upholding standards stuff is basically a fancy way of saying you complain when things aren’t going well.

Not really. I've been saying all this about Ole since before he was permanent manager. I didn't think he was very good to begin with, even on his interim run. I just don't hold back based on who he is.

 

[Bilbo]

Well Bruno when he first joined said he wants to win the league, champions league, everything. That's his mentality. Do you think he will stick around for long if we can't offer him that? It might not be next year, but give it a few years at the most. It's naïve to think otherwise.

So you don't think he will leave if we don't win anything?

If we dont win anything in the next 'few years at the most' then losing Bruno would be the least of our worries

 

[Leftback99]

Not really. I've been saying all this about Ole since before he was permanent manager. I didn't think he was very good to begin with, even on his interim run. I just don't hold back based on who he is.

4 months ago you had no doubts he was the right man for us:

At the darkest day earlier this season, imo Newcastle away, where it felt like the whole club was in meltdown, when De Gea was on the verge of tears & Ole looked like a deer caught in the headlights. I was definitely Ole out back then. No way did i think he was capable of turning it around after that day. I thought he was finished.

But to his credit, he has never tried to blame the players at any point, no matter how bad it got, and now, a few months after Bruno's inspired signing, we've clawed back a large point deficit, are currently 18 games unbeaten and broken a PL record along the way. We have been a joy to watch again. The players are so happy. We look almost unbeatable going forward. That's with a young home grown attack that has been molded by him through hard work on the training pitch.

Fair play to the man. He has shown some serious character this season. I honestly don't care if we don't make top 4. The fact that he's come back from that point, through sheer hard work on the training ground with his head held high, means I've seen more than enough to believe that he's the right man for us going forward to lead our young team without any doubt.

One thing i would like to see in the future though is, just like how SAF used to refresh his assistants to bring in new strategies the team was lacking at that time (e.g. Queiroz & transition to European fluid 433 style), I hope Ole is capable of doing the same too. Southampton's organisation and pressing was very impressive tonight. We have a clear weakness of being unable to keep our composure and struggle to control the game vs this type of opponent strategy. if Ole is unable to fully counter these team's plans, i hope he can bring someone in to help him and us do so.

 

[Bilbo]

4 months ago you had no doubts he was the right man for us:

Nice find. Good post

 

[theklr]

Your point? I never said Hasenhüttl would categorically succeed if he came here. I said the hallmark of a good manager is showing the ability to improve over time and get the best out of his existing players. If a manager can imprint his philosophy without hundreds of millions, and get the best out of lesser talented players, then it's a decent bet with more resources and better players no? How is that simplistic? Whilst it's fine for someone who can't do it with hundreds of millions and much more talented players? Why do we have to settle for that?

Ok, I misunderstood your post then.

I dont agree that Ole hasnt improved alot of our players though - Fred, Rashford, Martial, Greenwood and to a certain extent Mata and Matic.

And he for sure has gotten alot out of them in the big games he’s won.

 

[Majima]

4 months ago you had no doubts he was the right man for us:

I don't mind. I've come to my senses now. I was swayed by the end of last season where I hoped he would come good. Who wouldn't have been back then? Before that period I hadn't been a fan since the beginning. But I now know, that was a case of letting my heart rule my head.

In the caveat at the end, I highlighted how we still can't counter teams that press us nor can we break down deep defences, and hoped he would bring in new assistants if he was unable to overcome it himself. Instead it's the same old after two years, I don't see anything changing now with this, and believe we will always have a ceiling to how good we can be under him.

 

[Bilbo]

I don't mind. I've come to my senses now. I was swayed by the end of last season where I hoped he would come good. Who wouldn't have been back then? Before that period I hadn't been a fan since the beginning. But I now know, that was a case of letting my heart rule my head.

In the caveat at the end, I highlighted how we still can't counter teams that press us nor can we break down deep defences, and hoped he would bring in new assistants if he was unable to overcome it himself. Instead it's the same old after two years, I don't see anything changing now with this, and believe we will always have a ceiling to how good we can be under him.

Few good results and you'll change your mind again