Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)

[VP89]

So yeah, I didn’t claim that the performances were fantastic, I claimed that they were well enough to secure 3 pts.

But even that claim would be incorrect. You can't point solely to XG to rest your point - just look at the match highlights, look at the post match threads, look at the full time analysis. It's clear we deserved the draws/losses we received that day.

But the players didn’t score and defensively they conceded silly goals. Or do you think that it’s Oles lack of “patterns of play” that allowed Crystal Palace to score a winner, a shot that a little child would save? Or is it Oles fault that Lindelöf can’t win an aerial duel against Ayew? Is it Oles fault that when de Gea jumps up to grab the ball, DCL (I think) pushes him into the net and the ball steers off Lindelöf and in.

You say "the players didn't score and defensively conceded silly goals" before then saying it's got nothing to do with Ole. When a team chronically loses silly points they are not meant to, fluctuating between very good and very bad far too often, the buck stops with the manager. It's not to do with United or Ole, but if this was happening at Chelsea, Arsenal, City, Liverpool, Bayern, Barcelona or Real it's the same point. You can't agree on one hand we let in silly goals and didnt score enough goals from my examples, and then try and claim thats not on Ole. And you've boiled it down to a Palace game (which we didn't even deserve to win in) to try and navigate your point. I disagree with the Palace evaluation for a host of reasons, and there are many more examples on top. That's where it stops becoming an isolated incident an a chronic problem.

But listen, I do really understand how you, other fans and even pundits feel about Ole. I’m aware about the tactical cycle now, about the things that are popular 2020, “the way of playing football.” But I’m sorry to disappoint you buddy, Ole will not make us play that way. He is not a coach that will make our players play like droid Germans or instruct his players how to scratch their balls. And whether you like it or not it’s up to you. As long as he gets results I’m happy. Personally I don’t care how the ball goes into the net, I don’t need to see the ball get passed into the net. I don’t care if he plays this “new term” low block high block or middle shit. As long as we win, I’m happy.

If I'm not mistaken in all competitions, Ole has a lower win % than Jose Mourinho (58%), LVG (52.4%) and perhaps even David Moyes at this point (52.9%).
Winning occassionally for a few games on a trot doesn't cut it for a Manchester United manager arriving to 2 years in charge. It was and never should be the barometer of the club.
Re. whether it's up to me or not is immaterial, we know he's probably going to be leaving us in the near future, and if he stays it means it's because he's doing well so I'm pleased either way. But the way its looking right now, it would be a joke to claim he's done a good enough job. And a weird take to point to his wins when is record is less than flattering.

And here we are, on a forum where a poster discusses that he’s not happy with a 3rd place because the points is not enough. Well, it’s enough to reach the Champions league

I'm not happy with 66 points whatever way you want to slice it. I actually said him getting the bare minimum in Champions League rightly buys him time into this season, but as you can see, we are approaching 1/3rd into the season and looking even more inconsistent.

Exactly, and Ole have said that SAF is his biggest influence. So hmm

Bebe probably has said SAF had a good influence on him too, shall we rope in him in too?

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

And there is the problem for me. I think Ole's limit is based on the quality of the squad.

Applies to every team. Its a stick that's always used to beat Ole and its not a fair criticism.

Ferguson wasn't ever a tactical mastermind. Very good obviously, but not a mastermind. He never did anything new in that regard. He was undoubtedly though a genius when it comes to man management. That's how he got his teams to perform better than the sum of their parts.

A bit contradictory no?

 

[theklr]

But the way its looking right now, it would be a joke to claim he's done a good enough job.

You see, that is the problem for me right there. Judge him at the end of the season, not after its less than 1/3 played and still alot of cups to possibly win.

 

[Water Melon]

Why judge Ole at the end of season? As soon as the Board see that top 4 is under threat, they need to fire him. No CL will have a negative impact on our finances (thus transfer window) and future sponsorship deals. Hopefully, Ole does brilliant from now on and proves the doubters wrong, but I would not bet my house on it. His job is on the line, needs to start doing much much better asap.

 

[VP89]

You see, that is the problem for me right there. Judge him at the end of the season, not after its less than 1/3 played and still alot of cups to possibly win.

I'm not judging him from 1/3rd of the season. I'm judging him from 2 years in the role. I've been quite clear in that if you didn't snip part of my post and take it out of context.

 

[tomaldinho1]

I'm not in either of those two camps, and just because so many forum posters keep plugging the not good enough line it doesn't mean its correct.

Saying that he has to keep displaying progress isn't unique to Ole. It applies to every manager at every club, and every manager we will ever hire in the future. This whole thing's getting boring now. One side will point out that we're 15th or whatever, and the other side will point out that he beat Tuchel, Nagelsmann and Ancelotti literally within the last few weeks alone. Its endless, and this thread will never, ever die.

One thing matters, and one thing only. As of right now, Woodward thinks he is good enough and he's the only person whose opinion is worth anything at all.

Out of interest how would you describe your viewpoint on it?

I agree re Woodward although that's kind of the point of a forum, people all have different opinions and I think it's become tiresome because there are too many people dismissing each other and just using blanket statements rather than being genuinely open to discussion. As I see it there are a few managers under pressure already this season, not just for the results side but because of performances; Ole, Parker, Bilic, Wilder and Dyche although the latter two have a lot of goodwill built up so likely will get a long time.

 

[Bilbo]

A bit contradictory no?

I don't see it as contradictory. United under Ferguson very often had the best squad of players in our league, good enough no doubt to win trophies under a lot of managers, but we would not have been able to keep on doing it if he hadn't been able to motivate these players to keep pushing & improving. That was his genius. Aside from United, who did it routinely, only Chelsea (once) and City (once) have ever managed to retain a PL title. Wenger never managed it.

The point is, I don't believe that Ferguson elevated his teams with his tactical approach. We were a straightforward 442 for much of his time in charge, but we had outstanding players and they turned up more often than not. Great talent wedded to a strong mental approach will lead to wins, which lead to confidence, which lead to better football.

 

[Bilbo]

Why judge Ole at the end of season? As soon as the Board see that top 4 is under threat, they need to fire him. No CL will have a negative impact on our finances (thus transfer window) and future sponsorship deals. Hopefully, Ole does brilliant from now on and proves the doubters wrong, but I would not bet my house on it. His job is on the line, needs to start doing much much better asap.

Everybodys top four place is currently under threat, unless you believe that there are clubs that have it sewn up already. We still have 93 points to play for.

 

[wolvored]

And I am shocked thats the conclusion you have reached after reading those replies.

If we end 8th or 9th - fine!

But what if we end 5th with 72 points ? Should he be sacked then ? Chances are - there will be a lot of clubs that will end around 65-75 points this season - as Liverpool and City will get a lot less points than last season, while a few of the teams at the bottom look a lot worse than most other teams. This means it will be a race for top-4 where there are 6-7 very good teams fighting for the positions.

Do people genuinely believe a manager should be fired for ending 5th behind - let's say City, Liverpool, Chelsea (who spent £200 million) and one more team ? Especially if we improve in points total. What if we get 75 points, end 5th, 10 points behind winners Liverpool. Is that really a sackable performance ?

If we finish 5th the Glazers will sack him as the minimum requirement is that we finish 4th in the 2nd season. VG was sacked and I think he finished 5th on GD and won the FA cup. You say Chelsea spent £200 million. Ole has spent more than that since last year. If he cant get 4th he deserves the sack.

 

[Bilbo]

Out of interest how would you describe your viewpoint on it?

I agree re Woodward although that's kind of the point of a forum, people all have different opinions and I think it's become tiresome because there are too many people dismissing each other and just using blanket statements rather than being genuinely open to discussion. As I see it there are a few managers under pressure already this season, not just for the results side but because of performances; Ole, Parker, Bilic, Wilder and Dyche although the latter two have a lot of goodwill built up so likely will get a long time.

My view on Ole has been consistent throughout. I think what he achieved last season has been underrated by so many of our fans, and he is a year ahead of schedule in terms of this 'rebuild'. This is about where I thought we might be this time next season in terms of squad depth and profile, and competing well in the CL in the way that we have managed to so far.

I really do believe that he is doing a very good job, and that we have a good chance of a bright future if we just let this play out. Honestly I could write a lot more but its nothing I haven't already said I know I'll get the same rebuttals as before.

 

[tomaldinho1]

My view on Ole has been consistent throughout. I think what he achieved last season has been underrated by so many of our fans, and he is a year ahead of schedule in terms of this 'rebuild'. This is about where I thought we might be this time next season in terms of squad depth and profile, and competing well in the CL in the way that we have managed to so far.

I really do believe that he is doing a very good job, and that we have a good chance of a bright future if we just let this play out. Honestly I could write a lot more but its nothing I haven't already said I know I'll get the same rebuttals as before.

Ok fair enough if that's your view point - interesting to hear as with any poster. Clearly we disagree on Ole but that's the point of the forum and, regardless, we support the same team and want United to do well every week.

If there comes a time (for whatever reason) that you decide Ole should be moved on. Any preferences for managers you'd want to see here?

 

[Bilbo]

Ok fair enough if that's your view point - interesting to hear as with any poster. Clearly we disagree on Ole but that's the point of the forum and, regardless, we support the same team and want United to do well every week.

If there comes a time (for whatever reason) that you decide Ole should be moved on. Any preferences for managers you'd want to see here?

I haven't really given it that much thought, for two reasons. (1) I don't think that Ole is going anywhere anytime soon and (2) I don't see any truly outstanding available candidates out there.

English football fans especially love to attach themselves to the latest flavour of the month, and still romanticise over a fancy foreign name. Take a poll over who would be the best fit for us out of Ralph Hassenhutl, Dean Smith & Chris Wilder. All three have a lot in common - they have produced a commendable period of results over a passage of time, and all shown tactical capabilities, but the former would win it hands down because we would never take a Dean Smith or a Chris Wilder seriously enough to back them.

I think there is a reason why United, Chelsea and Arsenal have all opted for the managers that they have. An understanding of the club does carry some value, especially in this period where standout candidates are thin on the ground. Arsenal went with Emery, Chelsea have been through almost everyone and United tried two managers with the experience and personality to take on a job this big. They've all failed to various degrees, so the strategy has changed.

If i had to pick one manager that I think we'd hire if Ole went tomorrow, the smart money would be on Pochettino. Hes available and he knows the league, but do I think hes a better fit for United than Ole right now - no

 

[theklr]

I'm not judging him from 1/3rd of the season. I'm judging him from 2 years in the role. I've been quite clear in that if you didn't snip part of my post and take it out of context.

Well, i thought so too, but then you said it would be a joke to think he has done a good enough job.

And only reasonable explanation for me was that you meant this season, because he surely hasnt done such a bad job since he came that thinking he has done a good job was laughable.

But thats just difference of opinion I guess.

 

[rotherham_red]

My view on Ole has been consistent throughout. I think what he achieved last season has been underrated by so many of our fans, and he is a year ahead of schedule in terms of this 'rebuild'. This is about where I thought we might be this time next season in terms of squad depth and profile, and competing well in the CL in the way that we have managed to so far.

I really do believe that he is doing a very good job, and that we have a good chance of a bright future if we just let this play out. Honestly I could write a lot more but its nothing I haven't already said I know I'll get the same rebuttals as before.

Absolutely. I always say this but it just gets ignored. Ole has essentially condensed two seasons' worth of transition in to one. He's done fantastically well on that front. Now, the onus is on him to improve further and get us to become more consistent. He's not been helped with the relatively poor recruitment that the likes of Jose and LvG never really had at this point in their careers at Utd, but Ole made do with a shit hand that was dealt last year, and I wouldn't bet against him making do with another shit hand this year either.

 

[tomaldinho1]

I haven't really given it that much thought, for two reasons. (1) I don't think that Ole is going anywhere anytime soon and (2) I don't see any truly outstanding available candidates out there.

English football fans especially love to attach themselves to the latest flavour of the month, and still romanticise over a fancy foreign name. Take a poll over who would be the best fit for us out of Ralph Hassenhutl, Dean Smith & Chris Wilder. All three have a lot in common - they have produced a commendable period of results over a passage of time, and all shown tactical capabilities, but the former would win it hands down because we would never take a Dean Smith or a Chris Wilder seriously enough to back them.

I think there is a reason why United, Chelsea and Arsenal have all opted for the managers that they have. An understanding of the club does carry some value, especially in this period where standout candidates are thin on the ground. Arsenal went with Emery, Chelsea have been through almost everyone and United tried two managers with the experience and personality to take on a job this big. They've all failed to various degrees, so the strategy has changed.

If i had to pick one manager that I think we'd hire if Ole went tomorrow, the smart money would be on Pochettino. Hes available and he knows the league, but do I think hes a better fit for United than Ole right now - no

I don't think a foreign name alone has much sway, more that there is generally a dearth of top level English managers. For example, an English manager has never lifted the PL. If I had to pick one English manager right now, I'd probably say Potter is the one who has impressed me the most in honesty - Brighton play exciting football and you can see the improvement and how they've added in a solid press since last season - they played us off the park when we beat them for example - and he has pedigree of promotions and a cup win in a minor league having had to do things the hard way in some ungodly tier of Swedish football. I would not, however, ever think he is the answer for United. Wilder & Smith have had to do things the hard way as well coming up from the lower leagues although I am less convinced their style of play would translate well for a CL club.

On those three you mentioned, I think it's unfair to bucket Hasenhuttl with the others because his pre-Southampton experience is bordering on the elite level already given he took RBL to 2nd in their first BL season, has CL experience & his style of play (even with Ings out injured) is hugely entertaining/effective and it's been over a year since he switched back to his 4222 (i.e not flavour of the month). Wilder had a great season last year and Smith looks talented but I can't see their tactical styles being a big difference maker for us.

Pochettino is the smart money move for sure, he is available and Woodward is not a risk taker - which probably rules out Hasenhuttl.

 

[Bilbo]

I don't think a foreign name alone has much sway, more that there is generally a dearth of top level English managers. For example, an English manager has never lifted the PL. If I had to pick one English manager right now, I'd probably say Potter is the one who has impressed me the most in honesty - Brighton play exciting football and you can see the improvement and how they've added in a solid press since last season - they played us off the park when we beat them for example - and he has pedigree of promotions and a cup win in a minor league having had to do things the hard way in some ungodly tier of Swedish football. I would not, however, ever think he is the answer for United. Wilder & Smith have had to do things the hard way as well coming up from the lower leagues although I am less convinced their style of play would translate well for a CL club.

On those three you mentioned, I think it's unfair to bucket Hasenhuttl with the others because his pre-Southampton experience is bordering on the elite level already given he took RBL to 2nd in their first BL season, has CL experience & his style of play (even with Ings out injured) is hugely entertaining/effective and it's been over a year since he switched back to his 4222 (i.e not flavour of the month). Wilder had a great season last year and Smith looks talented but I can't see their tactical styles being a big difference maker for us.

Pochettino is the smart money move for sure, he is available and Woodward is not a risk taker - which probably rules out Hasenhuttl.

Fair post, and I'd agree with your assessment of Potter. With regards to Woodward not being a risk taker - perhaps in the past, but hiring and sticking with Ole was most certainly a risk.

 

[romufc]

Absolutely. I always say this but it just gets ignored. Ole has essentially condensed two seasons' worth of transition in to one. He's done fantastically well on that front. Now, the onus is on him to improve further and get us to become more consistent. He's not been helped with the relatively poor recruitment that the likes of Jose and LvG never really had at this point in their careers at Utd, but Ole made do with a shit hand that was dealt last year, and I wouldn't bet against him making do with another shit hand this year either.

Its because alot of fans cry "we are manutd" and do not think logically. When he was appointed manager it was a 3 year build, we have seen positive signs, yes the football may not be great at times. Ole needs to do better in some games.

He has to get rid of alot of problems with our club, which he is slowly doing. I know people say he is backed but it is obvious from our play, we need a RW. That was no.1 priority this summer and we failed.

You tell a manager to get you top 4, he gets it for you. He then says, I need RW, LCB and he gets a CAM, LB, ST not saying they are bad signings especially Telles because Shaw is always injured.

Look how bad down the right we are.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Fair post, and I'd agree with your assessment of Potter. With regards to Woodward not being a risk taker - perhaps in the past, but hiring and sticking with Ole was most certainly a risk.

Yh true, although a part of me feels Ole is a strategic barrier for Woodward. Just look at the caf right now - there's still the understanding that Woodward has a lot of faults but most of the discontent is now about what we're seeing on the pitch. Woodward cares about the bottom line and the worst part of the Jose saga for him would have been the massive transfer outlay for little reward & the huge severance package. In Ole he knows he has a manager who won't down tools or cause a stink in the media because he is so loyal and so as long as he does 'ok' Woodward is somewhat protected. Being a club legend helps massively here. Maybe we are the new Arsenal under Kroenke in that top four with an occasional trophy is the future goal and there isn't an appetite to push for more again given how badly it worked out with LVG and Mou. This season will be telling.

 

[Foxbatt]

I really don't understand why some people want to keep Ole in any footballing sense?
Apart from Moyes all three managers got into CL spot and won trophies for United.
All these managers got sacked. Why Ole? The other German managers mentioned here are all known to be progressive coaches who have done something extra by getting their small clubs to play very good football with unknown players.
Any decent coach would get United to play much better football with this squad.
I agree with people who say Poch is not the guy. I personally think he is over rated. Yes he is a good coach but to me not among the top ones. I would rather have Nagelsmann, Rose or Hassenhuttl.
But Woodward is going to mess it up as he always does and going to appoint Poch.
This is why I feel we should keep Ole now until Poch goes somewhere else.

 

[Bilbo]

Yh true, although a part of me feels Ole is a strategic barrier for Woodward. Just look at the caf right now - there's still the understanding that Woodward has a lot of faults but most of the discontent is now about what we're seeing on the pitch. Woodward cares about the bottom line and the worst part of the Jose saga for him would have been the massive transfer outlay for little reward & the huge severance package. In Ole he knows he has a manager who won't down tools or cause a stink in the media because he is so loyal and so as long as he does 'ok' Woodward is somewhat protected. Being a club legend helps massively here. Maybe we are the new Arsenal under Kroenke in that top four with an occasional trophy is the future goal and there isn't an appetite to push for more again given how badly it worked out with LVG and Mou. This season will be telling.

All due respect but that doesn't really make any sense to me. What you are describing here is a CEO of a business not only settling for, but actively hiring, what he perceives to be a mediocre 'patsy' of a manager because it makes his life easier. Is that a fair sentence?

Your theory is one that can only be reached by supporters that have totalling convinced themselves that Ole is a sub-standard manager, are trying to make sense of why the club don't seem to agree with them, and then cherry pick the facts to support that. I'm pretty much neutral when it comes to Woodward, but I really don't believe that he isn't invested in making us as good as we can be. His reputation is also at stake here.

 

[theklr]

I really don't understand why some people want to keep Ole in any footballing sense?
Apart from Moyes all three managers got into CL spot and won trophies for United.
All these managers got sacked. Why Ole? The other German managers mentioned here are all known to be progressive coaches who have done something extra by getting their small clubs to play very good football with unknown players.
Any decent coach would get United to play much better football with this squad.
I agree with people who say Poch is not the guy. I personally think he is over rated. Yes he is a good coach but to me not among the top ones. I would rather have Nagelsmann, Rose or Hassenhuttl.
But Woodward is going to mess it up as he always does and going to appoint Poch.
This is why I feel we should keep Ole now until Poch goes somewhere else.

I think you are underestimating how big a leap there is from managing those clubs they do to managing a club the size of United, especially with the lack of footballing structure it has.

Sure, they *might* be better tactical managers per se, but it will still be a big risk in all the other factors of the managing business.

Moyes to United is a prime example of this, he clearly couldnt cope with how big the club was, and how the structure of the club was.

If we had a clear footballing structure and a solid framework in place, I would be all for it (even though I dont think Ole is as clueless as many people thing), but having one of those doing United as their first big club would be just as big risk as Ole was/is.

 

[Foxbatt]

I think you are underestimating how big a leap there is from managing those clubs they do to managing a club the size of United, especially with the lack of footballing structure it has.

Sure, they *might* be better tactical managers per se, but it will still be a big risk in all the other factors of the managing business.

Moyes to United is a prime example of this, he clearly couldnt cope with how big the club was, and how the structure of the club was.

If we had a clear footballing structure and a solid framework in place, I would be all for it (even though I dont think Ole is as clueless as many people thing), but having one of those doing United as their first big club would be just as big risk as Ole was/is.

This is the point I am making. Molde is a much smaller club than Monchengladbach or Leipzig or even Southampton. Dortmund is not a bigger club too but Klopp changed Liverpool.
Yes our structure is a shambles but the Board has supported the managers by and large.
Poch to me has not done much that I don't expect from a decent manager at Spurs. Jose may do well there too. Poch has got the experience of being at a big club.
Why Moyes failed is not because United is a big club. He failed due to his own incompetence.

 

[VP89]

Well, i thought so too, but then you said it would be a joke to think he has done a good enough job.

And only reasonable explanation for me was that you meant this season, because he surely hasnt done such a bad job since he came that thinking he has done a good job was laughable.

But thats just difference of opinion I guess.

So to put this in context, my point is that 66 points whatever way you slice it, is not good enough as a standalone barometer for a Man Utd manager. However the only reason I'd give him further time is because as you say, he's ticked the bare minimum for getting Champions League. I put this achievement more owing to the circumstances (Arsenal/Spurs mid season sackings, Chelsea transfer ban, Leicester first season under Rodgers followed by them missing almost their entire defence + maddison in the KO game vs us).

He was 90 minutes away from completely failing and ending 6th, where he would be likely sacked anyway. So the fact it's come down to those slender margins is not good enough for progress, and the way we've gone into this season with our first 7 games on top, only adds to the concern.

 

[Anustart89]

Ferguson wasn't ever a tactical mastermind. Very good obviously, but not a mastermind. He never did anything new in that regard. He was undoubtedly though a genius when it comes to man management. That's how he got his teams to perform better than the sum of their parts.

Hassenhuttl is doing a very good job there. Last season they finished 11th, which is about par or slightly better. They may well improve a couple of positions this season. Im not really sure what he has to do with any of this though, and i can't hide my surprise and admiration over how many of the posters on here suddenly seem to watch Southampton play every week.

I never said it was only about tactics. Obviously Fergie saw his limitations tactically which is why he changed his assistant a few times. Now obviously I do agree that the mentality he instilled in his teams and man management if you will was what made his teams perform to their maximum, but the point remains that Ole isn't getting the most out of his players. Everyone seems to be convinced that his man management is excellent for some reason, so that leaves us with his deficiencies being tactical (even if I'm personally unconvinced by his ability to motivate the players in games against lesser sides as we're lacking intensity in many of them).

I don't know if people are watching every game they play, but I've watched them more due to the plaudits they've been receiving and after their performance against us recently. To be honest, there are quite a few clubs in the league that are more entertaining to watch than we are, even though their teams aren't full of internationals.

 

[tomaldinho1]

All due respect but that doesn't really make any sense to me. What you are describing here is a CEO of a business not only settling for, but actively hiring, what he perceives to be a mediocre 'patsy' of a manager because it makes his life easier. Is that a fair sentence?

Your theory is one that can only be reached by supporters that have totalling convinced themselves that Ole is a sub-standard manager, are trying to make sense of why the club don't seem to agree with them, and then cherry pick the facts to support that. I'm pretty much neutral when it comes to Woodward, but I really don't believe that he isn't invested in making us as good as we can be. His reputation is also at stake here.

Sorry I'll rephrase - I didn't actually have an issue with the interim hiring of Ole and I also understand why we gave him a shot - as premature as the change from temporary to permanent was - he had done well up to that point. I don't really get your point about cherry picking facts because this is just my opinion on why Ole is a good buffer from the fans for Woodward.

For Woodward, his goal is profit. Obviously if we win trophies as well that is great but he would rather be top four, not win a trophy and make profit than win the PL but spend £300m to do so and make less. In Ole he has actively hired and retained the services of an experienced coach (Ole has been in management a long time now) who has never been successful at the highest level - he hasn't hired him to be his patsy but the fact Ole does not have the same expectations in his role as Mou or LVG is a blessing. Add in that Mou knew he could walk and find another job without difficulty, Ole does not have that so you have a loyal manager, who won't rock the boat, who has lower expectations and is going nowhere until he's fired/retires and it's undeniably a nice setup for a CEO. All he needs from Ole is CL qualification and, as we know form previous seasons, we can even dip into the EL occasionally without it being a disaster financially.

Personally I think after LVG and then Mou, the Glazers took at a look at the ridiculous spending we'd undertaken to essentially win a nothing cup and the Europa and said 'not again'.

To sum up, on your last point (bolded) I guess that's where we are different. I think he's invested in making us a good as we need to be, not as good as we can be.

 

[Mainoldo]

Sorry I'll rephrase - I didn't actually have an issue with the interim hiring of Ole and I also understand why we gave him a shot - as premature as the change from temporary to permanent was - he had done well up to that point. I don't really get your point about cherry picking facts because this is just my opinion on why Ole is a good buffer from the fans for Woodward.

For Woodward, his goal is profit. Obviously if we win trophies as well that is great but he would rather be top four, not win a trophy and make profit than win the PL but spend £300m to do so and make less. In Ole he has actively hired and retained the services of an experienced coach (Ole has been in management a long time now) who has never been successful at the highest level - he hasn't hired him to be his patsy but the fact Ole does not have the same expectations in his role as Mou or LVG is a blessing. Add in that Mou knew he could walk and find another job without difficulty, Ole does not have that so you have a loyal manager, who won't rock the boat, who has lower expectations and is going nowhere until he's fired/retires and it's undeniably a nice setup for a CEO. All he needs from Ole is CL qualification and, as we know form previous seasons, we can even dip into the EL occasionally without it being a disaster financially.

Personally I think after LVG and then Mou, the Glazers took at a look at the ridiculous spending we'd undertaken to essentially win a nothing cup and the Europa and said 'not again'.

To sum up, on your last point (bolded) I guess that's where we are different. I think he's invested in making us a good as we need to be, not as good as we can be.

Basically.. no pressure and zero standards. We will never be great again under the current set up.

 

[Bilbo]

Sorry I'll rephrase - I didn't actually have an issue with the interim hiring of Ole and I also understand why we gave him a shot - as premature as the change from temporary to permanent was - he had done well up to that point. I don't really get your point about cherry picking facts because this is just my opinion on why Ole is a good buffer from the fans for Woodward.

For Woodward, his goal is profit. Obviously if we win trophies as well that is great but he would rather be top four, not win a trophy and make profit than win the PL but spend £300m to do so and make less. In Ole he has actively hired and retained the services of an experienced coach (Ole has been in management a long time now) who has never been successful at the highest level - he hasn't hired him to be his patsy but the fact Ole does not have the same expectations in his role as Mou or LVG is a blessing. Add in that Mou knew he could walk and find another job without difficulty, Ole does not have that so you have a loyal manager, who won't rock the boat, who has lower expectations and is going nowhere until he's fired/retires and it's undeniably a nice setup for a CEO. All he needs from Ole is CL qualification and, as we know form previous seasons, we can even dip into the EL occasionally without it being a disaster financially.

Personally I think after LVG and then Mou, the Glazers took at a look at the ridiculous spending we'd undertaken to essentially win a nothing cup and the Europa and said 'not again'.

To sum up, on your last point (bolded) I guess that's where we are different. I think he's invested in making us a good as we need to be, not as good as we can be.

Fair post. I think we obviously just see this differently, but i do agree with some of your points. My last response was perhaps a little harsh, as I was speaking about a section of our fans in general rather than you specifically and didn't make that clear enough, so apologies for that.

One point I would make regarding Ole's personality, or how it is perceived. I think he is far better than Jose or LVG were at delivering the message in public. He doesnt often let his true feelings and frustrations come across, as opposed to the others who couldn't often contain their ego's in front of the media, but it doesn't mean that he is necessarily any more pliable in terms of what he wants.

As for Woodward, I'm still not convinced he is settling for anything. A CEO prioritising bottom line doesn't sanction £130m for two defenders, and he definitely doesn't sign off €40m for a largely untested 18 year old. We didn't have to make those decisions. Those are signings made by a progressive football club.

I'm also curious to know why you feel Ole has different expectations to those that came before him. We havent seen anything to suggest that yet

 

[youmeletsfly]

Sorry I'll rephrase - I didn't actually have an issue with the interim hiring of Ole and I also understand why we gave him a shot - as premature as the change from temporary to permanent was - he had done well up to that point. I don't really get your point about cherry picking facts because this is just my opinion on why Ole is a good buffer from the fans for Woodward.

For Woodward, his goal is profit. Obviously if we win trophies as well that is great but he would rather be top four, not win a trophy and make profit than win the PL but spend £300m to do so and make less. In Ole he has actively hired and retained the services of an experienced coach (Ole has been in management a long time now) who has never been successful at the highest level - he hasn't hired him to be his patsy but the fact Ole does not have the same expectations in his role as Mou or LVG is a blessing. Add in that Mou knew he could walk and find another job without difficulty, Ole does not have that so you have a loyal manager, who won't rock the boat, who has lower expectations and is going nowhere until he's fired/retires and it's undeniably a nice setup for a CEO. All he needs from Ole is CL qualification and, as we know form previous seasons, we can even dip into the EL occasionally without it being a disaster financially.

Personally I think after LVG and then Mou, the Glazers took at a look at the ridiculous spending we'd undertaken to essentially win a nothing cup and the Europa and said 'not again'.

To sum up, on your last point (bolded) I guess that's where we are different. I think he's invested in making us a good as we need to be, not as good as we can be.

80% of the people around here will ignore this, but it's the hard cold truth.

 

[Foxbatt]

Fair post. I think we obviously just see this differently, but i do agree with some of your points. My last response was perhaps a little harsh, as I was speaking about a section of our fans in general rather than you specifically and didn't make that clear enough, so apologies for that.

One point I would make regarding Ole's personality, or how it is perceived. I think he is far better than Jose or LVG were at delivering the message in public. He doesnt often let his true feelings and frustrations come across, as opposed to the others who couldn't often contain their ego's in front of the media, but it doesn't mean that he is necessarily any more pliable in terms of what he wants.

As for Woodward, I'm still not convinced he is settling for anything. A CEO prioritising bottom line doesn't sanction £130m for two defenders, and he definitely doesn't sign off €40m for a largely untested 18 year old. We didn't have to make those decisions. Those are signings made by a progressive football club.

I'm also curious to know why you feel Ole has different expectations to those that came before him. We havent seen anything to suggest that yet

I agree with you on the Woodward issue. He or the Board sanctioned those players because they know manchester united has to win either the PL or the CL.
I feel that he would sack Ole end of the season if we don't get CL spot.
My biggest concern is that he would hire Poch. I don't think he is the man to win trophies or take us to the top. Yes he brought Kane and Son and that's why they got where they were. But tactically he doesn't win battles with better teams. Furthermore I think he is too rigid in his style. Klopp in his first two years were rigid and then he changed his style. Poch has been in the PL for a long time and he has not changed it.
Is he better than Ole? Of course his track record shows that.

 

[lysglimt]

I really don't understand why some people want to keep Ole in any footballing sense?
Apart from Moyes all three managers got into CL spot and won trophies for United.
All these managers got sacked. Why Ole? The other German managers mentioned here are all known to be progressive coaches who have done something extra by getting their small clubs to play very good football with unknown players.
Any decent coach would get United to play much better football with this squad.
I agree with people who say Poch is not the guy. I personally think he is over rated. Yes he is a good coach but to me not among the top ones. I would rather have Nagelsmann, Rose or Hassenhuttl.
But Woodward is going to mess it up as he always does and going to appoint Poch.
This is why I feel we should keep Ole now until Poch goes somewhere else.

No - all of those managers kept their jobs as long as they kept United in a C.L spot

But I agree with your last 2 lines - for Gods sake not Poch

 

[tomaldinho1]

Fair post. I think we obviously just see this differently, but i do agree with some of your points. My last response was perhaps a little harsh, as I was speaking about a section of our fans in general rather than you specifically and didn't make that clear enough, so apologies for that.

One point I would make regarding Ole's personality, or how it is perceived. I think he is far better than Jose or LVG were at delivering the message in public. He doesnt often let his true feelings and frustrations come across, as opposed to the others who couldn't often contain their ego's in front of the media, but it doesn't mean that he is necessarily any more pliable in terms of what he wants.

As for Woodward, I'm still not convinced he is settling for anything. A CEO prioritising bottom line doesn't sanction £130m for two defenders, and he definitely doesn't sign off €40m for a largely untested 18 year old. We didn't have to make those decisions. Those are signings made by a progressive football club.

I'm also curious to know why you feel Ole has different expectations to those that came before him. We havent seen anything to suggest that yet

No problem, I didn't read it in a negative way, the caf has become a very polarised place recently and can be hard not to get annoyed with some of the agenda posters.
Agree re Ole's personality - he is a great 'face' for the club and a breath of fresh air compared to Jose who damaged the 'brand' a huge amount in my opinion.

That's true on Woodward sanctioning spending last year, I guess now it's hard to judge with covid but I think in the future we will always spend but I think we are a lot more focused on net spend than we were beforehand & Lukaku was the main reason we spent big on Maguire, AWB and Bruno. I think there'll be a lot more Diallo type signings in the future.

For Ole's expectations - no one expects him to win the league. Maybe fans who believe in him think he could do in the future but for LVG and Mou they had been specifically brought into to have us competing at the highest level as soon as possible. Ole is now past 100 games but I feel the aim is still to try to make the top 4 and 'rebuild' - I have even seen fans saying Europa would be ok if there were real signs of progress and this is such a difference in mindset to how we viewed Jose and LVG. Ole doesn't have a free pass by any means but I get the impression the bar is lower.

 

[Bilbo]

No problem, I didn't read it in a negative way, the caf has become a very polarised place recently and can be hard not to get annoyed with some of the agenda posters.
Agree re Ole's personality - he is a great 'face' for the club and a breath of fresh air compared to Jose who damaged the 'brand' a huge amount in my opinion.

That's true on Woodward sanctioning spending last year, I guess now it's hard to judge with covid but I think in the future we will always spend but I think we are a lot more focused on net spend than we were beforehand & Lukaku was the main reason we spent big on Maguire, AWB and Bruno. I think there'll be a lot more Diallo type signings in the future.

For Ole's expectations - no one expects him to win the league. Maybe fans who believe in him think he could do in the future but for LVG and Mou they had been specifically brought into to have us competing at the highest level as soon as possible. Ole is now past 100 games but I feel the aim is still to try to make the top 4 and 'rebuild' - I have even seen fans saying Europa would be ok if there were real signs of progress and this is such a difference in mindset to how we viewed Jose and LVG. Ole doesn't have a free pass by any means but I get the impression the bar is lower.

I think he'll struggle to keep the job without CL qualification this season. The only real exceptions to that case that I can imagine are either (a) we suffer very badly with injuries, or (b) we go deep in the CL and win a domestic trophy.

I could see a scenario there, especially with the latter, where the club could conclude that another season with Ole might be the best option, and I'd probably agree with that too.

Failing that, as said, I think it would be time to part ways, but its much too early to even go there. Id rather just enjoy this season and the football first before having to worry about all that

 

[tomaldinho1]

I think he'll struggle to keep the job without CL qualification this season. The only real exceptions to that case that I can imagine are either (a) we suffer very badly with injuries, or (b) we go deep in the CL and win a domestic trophy.

I could see a scenario there, especially with the latter, where the club could conclude that another season with Ole might be the best option, and I'd probably agree with that too.

Failing that, as said, I think it would be time to part ways, but its much too early to even go there. Id rather just enjoy this season and the football first before having to worry about all that

We can agree on that, let's hope the Everton form survives the international break!

 

[Bilbo]

We can agree on that, let's hope the Everton form survives the international break!

I feel quite optimistic about our chances this season. I dont know why. Just a feeling that the team will move up a gear now

 

[tomaldinho1]

I feel quite optimistic about our chances this season. I dont know why. Just a feeling that the team will move up a gear now

Same in fairness, can see us winning next few. WBA you'd hope we beat, surely we can't drop point to Istanbul and Soton minus Ings shouldn't have enough to beat us as good as they play so I think we'll go on a nice run until PSG which will be tough.

 

[Foxbatt]

Same in fairness, can see us winning next few. WBA you'd hope we beat, surely we can't drop point to Istanbul and Soton minus Ings shouldn't have enough to beat us as good as they play so I think we'll go on a nice run until PSG which will be tough.

Hope to beat? We have to beat them. They are in the relegation zone and probably will get relegated. Soton, I do not know and it depends on which United turn up and which Soton turns up.

 

[RooneyLegend]

This Ole guy doesn't even really have a plan. He's just throwing things together to see if they work. Enough is enough, let him go.

 

[passing-wind]

No problem, I didn't read it in a negative way, the caf has become a very polarised place recently and can be hard not to get annoyed with some of the agenda posters.
Agree re Ole's personality - he is a great 'face' for the club and a breath of fresh air compared to Jose who damaged the 'brand' a huge amount in my opinion.

That's true on Woodward sanctioning spending last year, I guess now it's hard to judge with covid but I think in the future we will always spend but I think we are a lot more focused on net spend than we were beforehand & Lukaku was the main reason we spent big on Maguire, AWB and Bruno. I think there'll be a lot more Diallo type signings in the future.

For Ole's expectations - no one expects him to win the league. Maybe fans who believe in him think he could do in the future but for LVG and Mou they had been specifically brought into to have us competing at the highest level as soon as possible. Ole is now past 100 games but I feel the aim is still to try to make the top 4 and 'rebuild' - I have even seen fans saying Europa would be ok if there were real signs of progress and this is such a difference in mindset to how we viewed Jose and LVG. Ole doesn't have a free pass by any means but I get the impression the bar is lower.

The bar is superficially lower but given the money Solskjaer has had spent I don't see the glazers keeping him after a 3rd place finish and following up the next season outside of the UCL. He'll 100 percent be sacked if that's the case and rightly so.

I think to many fans fail to identify that Solskjaer is the manager and irrespective of how much of a welcoming personality he is if he fails to get consistent results he will have failed his opportunity. There's no room for sentiments we are approaching a decade with no recognised essence of competitive success. The club will further fall into mediocrity if the standards continue to slip.

 

[Widow]

rather just enjoy this season and the football first before having to worry about all that

This made me chuckle.

It's hard to enjoy our football thus far. Yes, we have had some good results, but I haven't enjoyed heading into a game with limited expectations.

Hopefully, we'll get some consistency after the drab better known as the International Break.

West Broms low block, Southampton in form, City and a few tricky CL games to come. Ole has to deliver.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

"I want Ole to be a success."

I think that's the biggest problem - the feelings.
So we magnify every positives and ignore or at least downplay every negatives, negotiating with the idea that the positives far out-weight the negatives.