This thread is about GOAT, and personally I don't think R9 would be in the top 20.
His biggest achievement was the WC. Let's face it, his club career is nothing to write home about.
Why CR7 Should be Talked About as the GOAT
- Thread starter GM K
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His biggest achievement was the WC. Let's face it, his club career is nothing to write home about.
It's not an argument, it's so utterly idiotic I was just laughing at your opinion.Nice arguments mate
As much as I dislike Messi, I'll not say he's outside the greatest 5 footballers ever just to make a (stupid) point.
It's his utter dominance of the CL latter stages. Unseen since the inception of the CL
Cristiano and Messi also revolutionized the game, before the mid-00s, how many team did you see play with inverted wingers (right footer on the left and vice versa) and a number 9 who's main role is NOT to score (Heskey defensive striker doesn't count)?
The 2 of them basically started this thread that's lasted until now.
Sorry but Xavi wasn't even the best player in the world during his peak, and it was Messi and Ronaldo being the best player in the world over majority of Xavi best years (at least thats how the majority think, even if you don't value Ballon D'or at all). I understand the players you've mentioned are all great players, but same tier as Messi and Ronaldo? I mean seriously? Do you realise how rare in football history when a player could consistently perform at the very top for so long, and achieved that much on such high level? Maybe 10, 20 or 30 years from now, more people like you may start to really appreciate what Messi and Ronaldo have done and achieved in football.
One could argue that CR7 completely destroyed all the best teams with best defence in Europe, and carry his team all the way to champion in a way that not even Messi or R9 ever managed to do.
Inverted wingers and false nines aren't anything new.
Which doesn't diminish the players' achievements in said roles, of course. But there's hardly anything revolutionary about the roles themselves - tweaks on some very old themes in football history, in fact, and not comparable at all to what Beckenbauer (to make the most obvious example) represents.
Ok.
What separated the greatest goalscorers of all time from the greatest players of all time is the ability to influence the game not just in the final third but in the middle third as well by exerting control of the match. Even an incredible goalscorer like Gerd Muller, whose big-game record, productivity and finishing match Cristiano Ronaldo's (and whose all-round game is often under-appreciated), always fell slightly short of Johan Cruyff and Franz Beckenbauer because of their unmatched ability to control games. It's a similar story with Ferenc Puskas who, as well as being one of the most productive and deadly goalscorers of all time, created plenty as well. But Di Stefano has the edge over him for marrying heavy goalscoring with an all-encompassing influence of dictating play in the middle and final thirds. Romario is arguably the greatest penalty-box striker of all time, but falls short of Ronaldo because, while the wee man could conjure something up out of nothing 25 yards out, he was never a one-man attack and, relatively speaking, relied on decent service. Ronaldo could be hugely influential without decent service and was always a force when receiving the ball in both the middle and final thirds.
Now you can make a case that Cristiano Ronaldo's goalscoring is so devastating that he should be in the very top tier. And there's a strong case that he's the most complete goalscorer of all time with his unmatched package of threats off either feet and in the air. The completeness and consistency of his goalscoring is almost unparalleled, but it would be fair to say that Pele, Muller and Eusebio had no obvious weaknesses as goalscorers either. Where for me Pele stands ahead of the others is that, not only did he demonstrate that full range of finishing repertoire over a long time, his creativity, one-on-one abilities, and intelligent selflessness as a facilitating 10, gave him an extra dimension that places him on another level.
Now you can make a case that Cristiano Ronaldo's goalscoring is so devastating that he should be in the very top tier. And there's a strong case that he's the most complete goalscorer of all time with his unmatched package of threats off either feet and in the air. The completeness and consistency of his goalscoring is almost unparalleled, but it would be fair to say that Pele, Muller and Eusebio had no obvious weaknesses as goalscorers either. Where for me Pele stands ahead of the others is that, not only did he demonstrate that full range of finishing repertoire over a long time, his creativity, one-on-one abilities, and intelligent selflessness as a facilitating 10, gave him an extra dimension that places him on another level.
The latter is a much more compelling point in his favour than the former – I would add. Ronaldo's (and Messi's) sheer numbers have to be seen in context. You wouldn't expect any player, no matter how prolific he is, to score 50-60-70 goals in a single season in any kind of environment. Insane numbers usually indicate favourable circumstances (quality of service, level of opposition, general “climate” of the specific era, and so forth). That's not an argument against either player being a devastating goal threat – but it can't be used, as some do, as “proof” of superior ability either.
And in comparison with a different brand of player, pure stats may not be all that relevant: The legacy of several GOAT candidates (obviously) doesn't rest on their sheer productivity (as goal scorers), for instance.
Well done for contradicting a point I didn't even make.
Again, well done for contradicting a point I didn't make (although I'll argue that Xavi's consistency at the club and international level combined is a level that both Messi and Ronaldo have failed to reach).
Good for them.
Yes. Doesn't mean Messi and/or Ronaldo aren't better, it's that they're all in the same realm of greatness.
Yes.
I realize it's rare, yes. That doesn't factor into my categorization though, otherwise I'd have Messi, Ronaldo, Giggs, Maldini... up there.
In the meantime, I'm sure you'll continue fighting the good fight.
Ok you mean you don't disagree that Messi and Ronaldo are better, and you realize their level of consistency at the very top are rare, but nonetheless still rank them alongside with the players you've mentioned, who had apparently achieved far less than them. I still don't quite get it to be honest, but if that's how your ranking system of GOAT work, then fine you are entitled to your own opinion then.
Just one question, since this is one strong judgment. Can you name that better "pure number 9" strikers? From his era and even until today. The question relates to pure number 9 strikers which exclude you know already which players.
I am just curious who you rate above him. Looking at their careers and abilities, who would you put in your first XI as a striker before Ronaldo?
Messi wouldn't have a thread discussing this. Kudos to Cristiano though for running him close.
Have to say I have to agree with that. Btw, would you rate Eusebio ahead of Ronaldo going by that metric?
You should rename this thread 'Are you the Portuguese or Brazilian Ronaldo?' and add a poll.
I am also curious to discover the names of these strikers from his era supposedly better.
I am also curious to discover the names of these strikers from his era supposedly better.
Since his name was brought up...
Xavi did things on the football pitch that Messi and Ronaldo don't and can't do, things that took years and years of practice and highly advanced tactical notions about how to play football in a possession based progression system. Many people don't really understand how important Xavi was for Barcelona and Spain. Somebody said at some point that when you had Xavi on the pitch, decisions were made for you. You had a certainty that the ball would come at the right time, with the right power, always on your stronger foot. It would always find you moving forward, without having to stop or to turn. You would never receive under pressure because he absorbed it for you and never released the ball to get rid of it, or to put others in trouble. He used passes to create, temporize and develop the play. When you have a teammate like that everything gets easier. Xavi knew his teammates to perfection. He passed the ball to them almost like they would've passed it to themselves if they had Xavi's ability. In a game where every lost second counts, he was the no1 reason other than the system itself, for why every team on the planet parked the bus against peak Barca.
Messi and Ronaldo can never be a class above the likes of Xavi. Because they didn't have to do the type of job he did, and even if they tried, they would've failed. Ronaldo isn't even in the same league regarding passing range, ball retention skills, orchestrating play etc. Messi, on the other hand, has some of Xavi's attributes, while completely lacking others, like the ability to run 11-12km. per game and have such a great movement that, at any a given time, almost every teammate could have passed the ball to him. Again, imagine you have a teammate that you can always find when you are in trouble, a player who you know will control even the most difficult passes and complete a better pass in 1-2 touches. A lot of times it was almost like a 'get out of jail free' card, that would allow you to keep the ball, instead of losing it. Imagine that kind of influence on the game.
How can someone say Ronaldo is leagues above the likes of Xavi beats me.
This whole talk about who the greatest is is all rubbish anyway, even if everybody indulges in these 'debates'. There is no one I've seen who can do what Xavi did better than him, and that tells you right there that these things are purely circumstantial. Among all-time greats, there is no one who has all the abilities, because no one has to in the first place.
Xavi did things on the football pitch that Messi and Ronaldo don't and can't do, things that took years and years of practice and highly advanced tactical notions about how to play football in a possession based progression system. Many people don't really understand how important Xavi was for Barcelona and Spain. Somebody said at some point that when you had Xavi on the pitch, decisions were made for you. You had a certainty that the ball would come at the right time, with the right power, always on your stronger foot. It would always find you moving forward, without having to stop or to turn. You would never receive under pressure because he absorbed it for you and never released the ball to get rid of it, or to put others in trouble. He used passes to create, temporize and develop the play. When you have a teammate like that everything gets easier. Xavi knew his teammates to perfection. He passed the ball to them almost like they would've passed it to themselves if they had Xavi's ability. In a game where every lost second counts, he was the no1 reason other than the system itself, for why every team on the planet parked the bus against peak Barca.
Messi and Ronaldo can never be a class above the likes of Xavi. Because they didn't have to do the type of job he did, and even if they tried, they would've failed. Ronaldo isn't even in the same league regarding passing range, ball retention skills, orchestrating play etc. Messi, on the other hand, has some of Xavi's attributes, while completely lacking others, like the ability to run 11-12km. per game and have such a great movement that, at any a given time, almost every teammate could have passed the ball to him. Again, imagine you have a teammate that you can always find when you are in trouble, a player who you know will control even the most difficult passes and complete a better pass in 1-2 touches. A lot of times it was almost like a 'get out of jail free' card, that would allow you to keep the ball, instead of losing it. Imagine that kind of influence on the game.
How can someone say Ronaldo is leagues above the likes of Xavi beats me.
This whole talk about who the greatest is is all rubbish anyway, even if everybody indulges in these 'debates'. There is no one I've seen who can do what Xavi did better than him, and that tells you right there that these things are purely circumstantial. Among all-time greats, there is no one who has all the abilities, because no one has to in the first place.
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How can someone say Xavi is leagues above the likes of Dino Zoff when he can't do Zoff's job not even 40% as good as Zoff.
It's odd to compare the skills of a central midfielder with those of a striker.
How can someone say Xavi is leagues above the likes of Dino Zoff when he can't do Zoff's job not even 40% as good as Zoff.
It's odd to compare the skills of a central midfielder with those of a striker.
They can't. You take the best 2-3 goalkeepers in the history of football, and no other players can be leagues above them. That's just fanboy talk.
If his style of play is not your cup of tea, sure, but to say that he has not done enough is a rather weird comment if you look at his individual accolades as well as his teams'. You really can't do much more than what he has done on a football pitch.
@serghei
Don't worry, there is a consensus to say Xavi is one of the top 5 GOAT in the category of central midfielders.
Don't worry, there is a consensus to say Xavi is one of the top 5 GOAT in the category of central midfielders.
I think you missed the point he was making.....
I'm pretty sure I got it. His point was that you can say, Valdes, for example, is as good as Ronaldo because Ronaldo can't stop shots and do what Valdes does. But you can easily explain this analogy by mentioning that Ronaldo does his role much better than Valdes did or does his, so he is a much better footballer as a result of this. Ronaldo is a much better forward than Valdes ever was a keeper. But when compared with Xavi, you have two different types of excellence. You can't really say Ronaldo is a much better forward than Xavi is a midfielder.
The people in the tier above him have done much more than Ronaldo though.
Im not sure why ranking Ronaldo a level below a category reserved for transcendental figures of the sport is seen as an insult or slight.
Excellent summary. I've never seen a midfielder like Xavi who imposed his will and dominance on every single match, regardless of the opposition or stage.
By that logic, one can argue Schmeichel (or Buffon or whichever goalkepper you rate as best) is the best footballer ever. Surely even a Barca fan can see the problem of that arguement.
Because he's clearly at a higher level than those you've ranked him alongside.
Reading through this thread every day and im lost to be honest as im not sure what are people comparing now, careers or performances.
For me, Cristiano is GOAT is 3 different categories but when we talk about the overall GOAT he isnt in that God bracket of players alongside Messi, Maradona, Pele, Cruyff, Beckenbauer, Xavi, Di Stefano etc. Lacked something extra special in his winger version, lacks something in his goalscoring machine version, for my taste at least. People usually use 3 year peaks for players so one season wonders dont get a mention in debates and its long enough period to determine the quality of someone and this is where does players have the edge over him, at their absolute best they were better, slightly but better. Ronaldo can match their numbers, in many cases even beat the numbers but numbers arent everything even though this days every debate turns into numbers, give it few years and people wont even bother to watch the games they will just use stats to see who is the best.
As i said, he is GOAT in 3 different categories and that alone is worthy of some huge respect. Im not his fan but what he did is truly amazing, such drive and desire to be the best is a rare thing and this is where he is easily better then Messi.
First category is GOAT winger, for me probably the favorite version of Ronaldo and in my opinion the best version as well. The perfect combination of flair, team play, selfishness and end product. Is he the best winger of all time? Im not sure but no one will deny that he is in the highest tier possible.
Second category is GOAT goalscorer. Nobody cant deny his goalscoring records. At the very top of the tree alongside Messi and maybe few others as i cant be bothered to check the goalscoring records but again, highest possible tier.
Third and final category is GOAT career, this is where debate went last few days. A truly amazing career it has to be said, like him or not you have to acknowledge greatness and his career is great. In comparison with Messi this is where they are the closest, probably equal in my eyes.
For me, Cristiano is GOAT is 3 different categories but when we talk about the overall GOAT he isnt in that God bracket of players alongside Messi, Maradona, Pele, Cruyff, Beckenbauer, Xavi, Di Stefano etc. Lacked something extra special in his winger version, lacks something in his goalscoring machine version, for my taste at least. People usually use 3 year peaks for players so one season wonders dont get a mention in debates and its long enough period to determine the quality of someone and this is where does players have the edge over him, at their absolute best they were better, slightly but better. Ronaldo can match their numbers, in many cases even beat the numbers but numbers arent everything even though this days every debate turns into numbers, give it few years and people wont even bother to watch the games they will just use stats to see who is the best.
As i said, he is GOAT in 3 different categories and that alone is worthy of some huge respect. Im not his fan but what he did is truly amazing, such drive and desire to be the best is a rare thing and this is where he is easily better then Messi.
First category is GOAT winger, for me probably the favorite version of Ronaldo and in my opinion the best version as well. The perfect combination of flair, team play, selfishness and end product. Is he the best winger of all time? Im not sure but no one will deny that he is in the highest tier possible.
Second category is GOAT goalscorer. Nobody cant deny his goalscoring records. At the very top of the tree alongside Messi and maybe few others as i cant be bothered to check the goalscoring records but again, highest possible tier.
Third and final category is GOAT career, this is where debate went last few days. A truly amazing career it has to be said, like him or not you have to acknowledge greatness and his career is great. In comparison with Messi this is where they are the closest, probably equal in my eyes.
As pure no.9, back then I would have Ruud above him for most part of his post-injury years. He simply outperform/ourscore him for most part of the years. Forward player though, there were quite a few, including Henry at that time. One could also argue that Rivaldo and Ronaldinho has both outperformed R9 during his post-injury era, although strictly speaking they have different position/role in the team.
Career-wise it's tricky, I'd probably have him above most other at his peaks, but for most part of his career though, I would have plenty of others above him.
How much have you seen of Puskas or Di Steffano?
As for Luiz Ronaldo?
But what more have they done than him? You can't say that Xavi dictated the game more, R9 ran faster or Pele scored more. How can one of those players argue that they, through the course of their careers, achieved more than Ronaldo has? He has won everything there is to win, in two competitive leagues, won 4 Ballon d'Ors against amongst others the player most of you would have as the GOAT; he is, or soon will become, the top scorer of all time in Europe, is the top scorer of la liga and RM - the all time top scorer of the CL, won the Euros and so on and so on.
What the hell is a transcendental figure of the sport anyways? If anything, we tend to regard players of the past in a better light years after they quit simply because we tend to remember the fonder things.
Imagine that Ronaldo was scoring 100 goals per season and was winning everything. Would some people still say that he is a lesser player than Cruyff because Cruyff controlled games?
The mytical importance of controlling games tends to blind people. To control games is to create more chances than the opposition. And Ronaldo was/is instrumental in the creation of chances for United/Madrid with his outstanding qualities.
Ronlado isn't the best finisher in the history of the game. He needs more chances to score than Müller or van Basten. But he is involved in more chances than any other forward out there - not because he has played with the best midfield like Messi (Xavi and Iniesta are all-time greats) or the best attackers (Neymar and Suarez are clearly better than Bale and Benzema) but because his movement co-creates chances that otherwise wouldn't exist. Ronaldo's off the ball movement is another, less spectacular but no less effciient way of creating chances for himself than dribbling. His off the ball movement creates chances out of nothing. The best defences in the world couldn't stop him (Bayern, Atleti - two hattricks this seasons against them, and Juve) - not because they couldn't stop Modric and Kroos but because they couldn't handle Ronaldo's movement.
The mytical importance of controlling games tends to blind people. To control games is to create more chances than the opposition. And Ronaldo was/is instrumental in the creation of chances for United/Madrid with his outstanding qualities.
Ronlado isn't the best finisher in the history of the game. He needs more chances to score than Müller or van Basten. But he is involved in more chances than any other forward out there - not because he has played with the best midfield like Messi (Xavi and Iniesta are all-time greats) or the best attackers (Neymar and Suarez are clearly better than Bale and Benzema) but because his movement co-creates chances that otherwise wouldn't exist. Ronaldo's off the ball movement is another, less spectacular but no less effciient way of creating chances for himself than dribbling. His off the ball movement creates chances out of nothing. The best defences in the world couldn't stop him (Bayern, Atleti - two hattricks this seasons against them, and Juve) - not because they couldn't stop Modric and Kroos but because they couldn't handle Ronaldo's movement.
He already is the top scorer in Europe's top 5 leagues, has the record number of wins of the golden shoe and made team of the tournament in the European Championship three times.
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Thanks. I fail to see how much more he can do as a striker/winger. Attackers don't control games, nor are they shot stoppers or rated by their sliding tackles. As others have stated, his run in for the CL this year at least matches the best run of form by Maradona, whom many would argue had a higher peak than both Ronaldo and Messi.
On Xavi, one of the most influential mids in history - his style of play was pivotal to Barca's success (they still haven't replaced him) but putting Xavi in the same bracket as these two is surprising - and I used to love Xavi. These two geniuses are far ahead of anyone in this era and that is not belittling Xavi's acumen at all. Appreciate and admire greatness when you see it. I think most Ronaldo fans give Messi credit and accept the healthy competition but not the other way round which is daft considering he has achieved so much.
No player or part of a team can control games on its own. As I already said above, to control a game is to create more chances than the opposition. If a given team has 99% possession but concedes more chances than the opposition, it doesn't control the game.
Hence, attackers and defenders are no less important in controlling games than midfielders. A forward can contribute to the controll of a game by creating chances through his movement and skills. Control without chances is no control.
Hence, by helping his teams create many chances Ronaldo massively co-contributes for the control of games, in particular vs top teams. Without Ronaldo Madrid wouldn't have created so many chances vs Bayern, Atleti and Juve. It's not that they would have created the same chances but Ronaldo's alternative wouldn't have finished them. That's completely erroneous. Madrid controlled those games because they created more chances than the opposition and they created more chances than the opposition not least because of Ronaldo. Simple. This busts the myth that Ronaldo just sits in or around the box and finishes chances created by the whole team.
Agree 100%. Watching the CL this year, Ronaldo's movement was phenomenal. He took up positions, stretched defenders, and they usually double or triple up on him, faints a run, then darts in a different direction only to dumbfound the defenders and makes room for himself to receive a pass, or for other players to exploit that room. He is probably the best player in the world at doing that, and watching him play now is watching a different Ronaldo. He doesn't get the ball as much, but he is always available for a pass. He facilitates attacks with his movement, his general threat, and his ability to finish chances and create for others.
When one has a pre-conceived notion, it's difficult to change opinions. Most have already decided who they prefer (out of the two) - any arguments to the contrary will not change their stance but will inspire them to seek facts to back their claim. It's a vicious cycle which will not stop. I don't think Ronaldo has anything left to prove anymore - one of the very best (Tier 1) with the likes of Maradona, Pele, Cruyff, Der Kaiser and Leo Messi.
People choosing Best as better than Ronaldo. Christ. Mind Boggling
Different eras, not comparable. He was the first to be a superstar the likes of which had not been seen - his ball control and dribbling was on another level - and that in an age of tackles meant to rip your legs out and the pitches were in shambles. He had other issues, otherwise could have lasted longer.
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Come on, Maradona's 'best run of form' is well ahead of that and what anyone else has put together.