It's unlikely to be matched in the recent future. 86' WC Maradona is the stuff dreams are made of.
Why CR7 Should be Talked About as the GOAT
- Thread starter GM K
- Start date
It's unlikely to be matched in the recent future. 86' WC Maradona is the stuff dreams are made of.
All this bullshit about beckenbauer / cruyff / di stefano better than Cristiano ronaldo.
Most of you weren't even alive when they hang their boots and you simply said their top 5 ever??
Laughable.
I'm not even sure maradonna is better than messi, all people talked about maradonna is Napoli and 86. It seems he makes a meal out of that few magic goal.
Most of you weren't even alive when they hang their boots and you simply said their top 5 ever??
Laughable.
I'm not even sure maradonna is better than messi, all people talked about maradonna is Napoli and 86. It seems he makes a meal out of that few magic goal.
Stats and prize lists don't lie but can be misleading:
1. CR7 105 goals in 140 games (ratio of 0.75 goal per game)
2. Messi 94 goals in 115 games (ratio of 0.82 goal per game)
3. Raul 71 goals in 142 games
4. RVN 56 goals in 73 games
5. Benzema 51 goals in 95 games
Comments:
1. Is Benzema better/greater than the likes of Eusebio, Muller, Henry, Schevchenko, Eto'o...? No
2. Ronaldo played 40 games against 140 games for Cristiano.
- Why? Because the competition changed his format. Now, the top 4 in Spain can be part of the Champions League against 1 or 2 depending the country in the era of Prime Ronaldo. Indeed, he joined PSV eindhoven (Ajax was the super team there), then he joined Barcelona that had to play the European Cup of Cup winners (and won it) and joined Inter Milan to play the UEFA Cup (and won it). Without Ronaldo, these clubs would have never won these competitions in 1997 & 98
- Lesson to be drawn? The peak of Ronaldo is clearly shorter than Cristiano but Prime Ronaldo has made his team win the major trophies: European Cup of Cup winners and UEFA cup were high-quality competitions before the last change in the format of the Champions League
Ronaldo never won the Champions but nothing to do with his talent.
If I may, I suggest you to enhance your knowledge before formulating assumptions based on nothing but a desire to say 'Football in the past was shit'. Appalling.
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How many CL goals did R9 score? 16? 16 in 40 is very unimpressive - no matter the context.
Depends on what you mean by run of form. If you think about what Ronaldo did for his team, with 10 goals against Bayern, Atletico and Juventus over 5 games in the quarter finals, semis and CL final, then that is hard to beat.
Indeed, it is absolutely unique.
It is at least debatable whether it is easier to score 10 goals from quarter to final in the CL against teams like Bayern, Atleti and Juve than to score 3 great solo goals vs England and Belgium. Thing is, no one before Ronaldo has done it despite the fact that there have been much more games in the European Cup/CL than in the WCs.
Maradona's best run of form basically means the knockout stage of the 1986 World Cup. Are you sure the likes of Belgium, England, even West Germany are on par with the likes of Bayern, AM, Juve today?
If the debate is just about statistics, it would be boring.
'No matter the context' reflects well your way of thinking based only on stats and prize lists.
What would people say is Cristiano's career peak, let's say a 2/3 year period?
I know he's a different machine at Madrid but him at United from 2006 to 2009 was absolutely outstanding and during that period he carried the attack of a team without having a great set of service behind him, had a proper all round game, and still scored plenty of goals especially decisive ones.
He won the Premier League in all those seasons, 3 in a row with him being the main man by far in all of them is absolutely brilliant, and the PL at the time was top class in terms of quality and hardly an easy job to conquer. We obviously had a great supporting cast for him especially the back 5 but he was the talisman and took us beyond teams like Chelsea and Liverpool who made CL latter stages regularly back then. So it was a pretty great spell for him while he was providing excellent contribution in all areas.
And of course in the CL he had a stellar record -
SF in 2007, went out to Kaka on steroids
Won in 2008, scored in final
Final in 2009 - that incredible strike vs Porto and decimation of Arsenal.
He was the undisputed best player in the world back. His numbers at Madrid are insane though and I can see a spell there being considered his overall best due to the sheer impact on the results.
I know he's a different machine at Madrid but him at United from 2006 to 2009 was absolutely outstanding and during that period he carried the attack of a team without having a great set of service behind him, had a proper all round game, and still scored plenty of goals especially decisive ones.
He won the Premier League in all those seasons, 3 in a row with him being the main man by far in all of them is absolutely brilliant, and the PL at the time was top class in terms of quality and hardly an easy job to conquer. We obviously had a great supporting cast for him especially the back 5 but he was the talisman and took us beyond teams like Chelsea and Liverpool who made CL latter stages regularly back then. So it was a pretty great spell for him while he was providing excellent contribution in all areas.
And of course in the CL he had a stellar record -
SF in 2007, went out to Kaka on steroids
Won in 2008, scored in final
Final in 2009 - that incredible strike vs Porto and decimation of Arsenal.
He was the undisputed best player in the world back. His numbers at Madrid are insane though and I can see a spell there being considered his overall best due to the sheer impact on the results.
It is not just about statistics but statistics matter. And 16 and in 40 is very unimpressive for a centre-forward no matter the context of the stat.
C. Ronaldo has played 140 games but part of them as a winger. If you are not interested only in stats, then do not conveniently gloss over context.
You should re-read my posts because you haven't understood my reasoning.
To sum up these discussions, there are 2 camps:
1. The CR7 sect saying 'CR7 is the ultimate GOAT: admire his stats and CV. Maradona-Ronaldo-Beckenbauer-Pele... are shit'
2. The others saying 'Well, we all know CR7. Have to say there are other great players who were capable to provide something different, hard to quantify and describe'
1. The CR7 sect saying 'CR7 is the ultimate GOAT: admire his stats and CV. Maradona-Ronaldo-Beckenbauer-Pele... are shit'
2. The others saying 'Well, we all know CR7. Have to say there are other great players who were capable to provide something different, hard to quantify and describe'
Ok, I just think you underestimate post-injury Ronaldo. He lost some of the explosiveness but he was still a beast of a striker. A different beast you could say. While he was a freak of nature before, he was now more of a predator type of striker with great movement, goal instinct and enough pace and skill to still be way more dangerous outside of the box than Ruud ever was. He still individually was a better player than Ruud, more difficult to mark and less relied upon service around him.
Just to add, post-injury Ronaldo won World Cup with one of the best performances in that tournament, won La Liga and individually won his second Ballon d'Or and was top La Liga scorer. He still had 3 world class seasons in him which for me was better than what Ruud produced in that time. Henry is a good shout when we are talking about post-injury Ronaldo, although it's still pretty damn close. Ronaldinho and Rivaldo played different positions, although I think even Rivaldo and his family would not put him ahead of Ronaldo.
So, he had about 8-9 seasons at the highest level if you include his PSV years where he already was on the incredible level at that age and when you looking at his whole career, ability wise and because of his individual skill, you are talking about one of the best strikers in world history.
In the modern era, I would put only Marco Van Basten close to him. He certainly can't be talked about as the GOAT, injuries prevented him from being in this discussions, but when you are talking only about world best strikers or pure "number 9" in the football history, his name will always be there, at the very top.
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What about Ronaldos record in international tournaments?
Utterly bizarre comment, Ronaldo wasn't even all that great this year in terms of his all round performances, and again unspectacular in the knockout games.
Scored golas in 6 consecutive big international tournaments (9 in Euros): not as bad as portrayed, surely.
I just think that people forget what kinda player he was. Also, back then World Cup was, undoubtedly, the biggest stage in football. That was the place where you had to perform to be considered among the greats. I feel it lost some of its appeal during the years while CL gain more importance than before.
These discussions are always difficult and it's impossible to pick or get consensus about it. I think most older people in Argentina who watched Di Stefano still rate him higher than Maradona because of his longevity and unique ability to influence or control the game even though he was a forward.
It is unique, and Bayern, Ateltico and Juventus have some of the best defenses currently in football, and Juventus' defense arguably in the last decade. The CL is also more important today than the WC, and so elevating Maradona's eneavours at the world cup above that of Ronaldo's in the CL is not correct.
One may argue that Ronaldo's style is not as interesting as other players, but when people say he has to do more to be acknowledged as one of the greatest, I just cannot comprehend what that could possibly be.
If you talk about absolute peaks, then both Ronaldinho and R9 trump CR7 and Messi, imo, but their careers are not as good as Ronaldo's.
Team of the tournament in three European Championships.
Ronaldo was unspectacular in the knockout games of the champions league?If you are comparing Ronaldo during his time with us and Best during his time with us then its Best easily. I remember going to OT and the buzz in the crowd even when it looked like he would get the ball would kick in. Every time he got the ball the crowd would take notice because there was always the chance of something special. It was the same at away games and opposition fans would react the same way. Its hard to explain to people who never got to see him. He was on another level compared to the vast majority of the players of his time.
However I do remember Ronaldo's debut for us and I remember feeling that same buzz as with Best and it was the first time since Best that i felt that same thing. Anyone with half a brain could tell he was going to become a great player when he made his debut for us.
If you are comparing overall careers then Ronaldo has overtaken Best in terms of career achievements. In terms of ability and excitement my personal preference is Best.
If you gave me a choice of one or the other in a team I would still go for Best. In terms of GOAT to me its all a silly argument that cant be decided for certain because there are a lot of players to consider but Ronaldo has to be in that discussion.
What!?
3. Those who ludicrously under-rate his achievements as "only a poacher" and make ridiculous comments about him being lesser than his fatty namesake.
Do enlighten me how? Let me guess? Biography? Youtube? Telltale? Time machine?
I never said anything about past football, just the notion that some poster are putting ahead players they never see beyond some footage, youtube clips, and probably a few recorded match and dead set on decising they're better than x/y/z.
Nobody denies the greatness of Cristiano but some just think there were other great players who deserve a similar consideration.
The comparison Best/Cristiano is much more interesting. If a United fan prefers Best than Cristiano, it doesn't mean Cristiano is necessarily underrated.
Sure, it's hard to assess players from a distant past.
Let's say each era has produced some GOAT and it's generally possible to find various sources* that tend to highlight the same players for a specific era.
Does an alien from outer space discovering our planet need to watch 50 games of Cr7 to understand he's a great player? I don't think so.
* Press articles, books, quotes, compilations, games (for instance it's possible to find some full games of the 50s online), views expressed by guys (pundits or not, players)...
You really need to review this thread if you think so.
Basically you havent seen any of the old goats 20 matches, let alone live? Ok.
Well done.
Nobody in here dismissed the old goats, nobody. But what ronaldo/messi achieved, the beauty of their game, and the end products reflect on their greatness you easilly dismiss.
There are intangible factors, but at the end of the day stats/trophies are the tangible barometer.
Well I think maybe you may have overrated him abit regarding his post-injury years. Yes he has had some good WC tournament, especially with the 3R attack (Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Ronaldinho). But for most part of it, his league form isn't that consistent or outstanding at all, as he didn't score as many goals as others in the same era, in fact there was quite a gap there, and his overall CL performances had been range from average to decent only (with some occasional good performance here and there) But I'd agree he has at most around 3 world class years during his whole career, whereas Messi and CR7 both has at least 10 up to dated.
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Sorry, I haven't understood what you wrote
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To be honest your post is even more ridiculous by your logic. You haven't seen them play at all so you just dismiss them in your (!) all-time ranking?
And it's Maradona. There is enough footage of Maradona, Beckenbauer and Cruyff to form an opinion on them, their influence, talent etc. A bit harder with Pele, although there is still lots of footage of him; sadly, almost impossible for Di Stefano. Still.
Pele and Maradona are still the top-2 for me. The former is the perfect example of a perfect career - he won literally everything, proved himself on every stage and maintained ridiculous consistency over his whole career - something a very few players did to that extent. Ronaldo and Messi did too. There is no question that he got very lucky with his international teammates though - Garrincha basically won the second World Cup for him, but still - you can only play with those who are at your side. Pele did and he did it perfectly. Maradona was amongst the best in his generation for quite some time but he definitely wasn't as consistent as Pele, Messi or Ronaldo. His peak international level though is unrivaled - and he was equally impressive in the incredibly cagey Serie A with arguably the greatest club side in history as his direct opponents.
I'd have Messi, Ronaldo (after this season), Cruyff, Beckenbauer and Di Stefano slightly behind them (in no particular order). Cruyff and Beckenbauer were the fulcrums of their club sides (both won 3 European Cups in succession), and equally amazing for their national teams - especially Beckenbauer, who provided one of the best midfield and libero performances in different tournaments. Di Stefano is an odd one - he achieved arguably less than Messi and Ronaldo with his team (although he won Copa America with 6 in 6 record iirc), but by all accounts, video footage and everything else, he was much more complete and influential than either of Messi/Ronaldo. Our contemporary duo lacks a bit in international department (and Ronaldo in my eyes can't be elevated to the next level just for that Euro title), but overall they deserve to be up here.
Puskas, Platini, Eusebio, Garrincha, G. Müller, Xavi, Matthäus, Charlton, Baresi, Scirea and maybe couple more in the next tier.
I'd have Messi, Ronaldo (after this season), Cruyff, Beckenbauer and Di Stefano slightly behind them (in no particular order). Cruyff and Beckenbauer were the fulcrums of their club sides (both won 3 European Cups in succession), and equally amazing for their national teams - especially Beckenbauer, who provided one of the best midfield and libero performances in different tournaments. Di Stefano is an odd one - he achieved arguably less than Messi and Ronaldo with his team (although he won Copa America with 6 in 6 record iirc), but by all accounts, video footage and everything else, he was much more complete and influential than either of Messi/Ronaldo. Our contemporary duo lacks a bit in international department (and Ronaldo in my eyes can't be elevated to the next level just for that Euro title), but overall they deserve to be up here.
Puskas, Platini, Eusebio, Garrincha, G. Müller, Xavi, Matthäus, Charlton, Baresi, Scirea and maybe couple more in the next tier.
Yep, Di Stefano is the only one who can't really be judged on actual footage. The rest can, and great though they were they're still not at Messi's level.
Well, I don't agree but fair enough - as long as it's the opinion based on an actual knowledge
No one denies he is a fantastic player. But for a fantastic player to be truly GOAT, he should have imo fulfilled the following criteria
1. Best performer of club and /or country during his time
2. Singlehandedly able to change games or affect its result
3. Guide his team to all trophies possible at club level
4. Guide his team to all trophies possible at international level
5. Spend 10+ years at a top level and possibly finish career at a relatively top level
6. Perform exceptionally at both levels in the big games
Maybe BdO can also be a factor but I wouldn't necessarily say that should be.
I think you miss my original post that's taking a piss at people saying ronaldo/messi not in their top 5 bellow the likes of maradona/pele/stefano/cruyf/best
As for Luiz Ronaldo?Don't make me laugh, he doesn't even feature in the top 20-30.
I can understand your passion for CR, but you really should lay off making ridiculous claims. Makes taking you serious on footballing issues very difficult.
Well then Best ticks all those boxes except the international one and remember he played international football when the world cup consisted of only 16 teams at the finals and he played for NI who didnt have very much talent.
I dont have him as a GOAT, just 1 tier down from that
Cristiano Ronaldo
Messi
Pele
Maradona
Di Stéfano
Cruyff
Beckenbauer
Zidane
Xavi
Maldini
That's 10 that are definitely ahead, then there are the likes of Garrincha, Baresi, Platini, etc who a strong case can be made.