Which of our player's fit Amorim's style/tactics particularly well or poorly?

[Nani Nana]

Looking into Amorims system which really focuses on smart attacking midfielders,.wingbacks and a powerful quick striker up top are we going to see the end of Rashford?

The only role I can see him fulfilling in an Amorim system is the lone striker where he can utilise his pace to get in beyond. However we have seen multiple times that he is not keen on that position and wants to be an inside forward who starts wide on the left. If he uses his tried and tested system from Braga and Sporting (I hope he does) then where does Rash fit in?

I think we will see him used rotationally with Hojlund at first but I just can't see him working as the focal point striker in a dynamic pressing team. He has great ability, and pace but I think in Amorims way of playing you need a full toolbox as a striker (Hojlund doesn't have it either yet) he needs a bit of everything.

I think Rashy can adapt to different systems

 

[Sarni]

How on earth do you know how hard Rashford trains?

People are making lots of presumptions about Rashford. It has been going on for years.

 

[Red Royal]

His overpaid contract means he will go nowhere unless he rediscovers that great form, in which case we won't want him to go.

 

[ROFLUTION]

Trying to dribble past/into 3 defenders from the wing should be over with Amorim’s system. Rashford needs to reinvent himself.

 

[romufc]

This is more about fans clutching at any straw to get rid of him?

Having done brief research on the Amorin system, there are 2 things I noticed that suit Rashford down to the ground.

1. Central 9 - Amorin wants to have a 9 who will make channel runs, down the side and in behind - Rashford is the best at this at our club, whilst he lacks in the holding up play area, he can be used as a backup to Hojlund in the 9. Playing 2 10's means the 9 can stay as high and make runs. Also noticed that there are times our defence will put one down the line for the forward to chase it.. Rashford again can do that.

2. Inside forward - I have noticed that Amorin also likes to leave 2 up when defending, the nearside inside forward tucks in and far side one stays up for a transition. Guess who is our best player on the transition? Marcus Rashford.

However; I cannot see him playing inside forward as I dont think he has the technical ability to play that role, perhaps see him and Hojlund for the 9 as I dont think Zirkzee works in the new system.

 

[Florida Man]

I'd have no issue if he moved on. Far too little return for the investment.

If he's not going to fit into the system, it's a good enough reason for both parties to move.

This reads like it could have come from Rashford’s PR team

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

If you look at our play our CBs did less and less of this after year 1. Martinez in his first season was instrumental in passing through the lines. Then he got injured second season and it as if ETH didn’t trust any other CB to play between the lines and then abandoned the idea.

I agree. I think Martinez is a wonderful passer of the ball - I just again think it's ludicrous to say he's better than Thiago Silva, literally one of the best to ever do it.

 

[Von Mistelroum]

How on earth do you know how hard Rashford trains?

Based on how he plays, with the main aim being too barely break sweat, I'm going to go out on a limb and say he's not the polar opposite when it matters less.

 

[Van Piorsing]

Poised to see, how he'll react to a younger manager (worked not that tragically with Ole), but in the end it's up to player.

There's gotta be the way to inspire him, and get something more than just occasional patch of games. If not, then ship will probably have to sail forward.

 

[IrishMcD]

We can only hope…

 

[Hammondo]

People are making lots of presumptions about Rashford. It has been going on for years.

Such as?

 

[Dan_F]

Trying to dribble past/into 3 defenders from the wing should be over with Amorim’s system. Rashford needs to reinvent himself.

I would imagine he’ll be delighted to get away from the touchline. He’s far more dangerous closer to goal.

We literally have a thread for players that will do well or not under the new manager. This one is unnecessary.

 

[The holy trinity 68]

Poised to see, how he'll react to a younger manager (worked not that tragically with Ole), but in the end it's up to player.

There's gotta be the way to inspire him, and get something more than just occasional patch of games. If not, then ship will probably have to sail forward.

300 grand a week should be enough to inspire him. If he can't motivate himself on top of that, as a professional athlete in the Premier League at one of the biggest clubs in the world, then he shouldn't even be at the club.

He has had enough chances and he is clearly not going to change now at 27.

 

[atkar83]

There isn't a single player other than maybe Garnacho & Mainoo that I'd create a play style around. If a coach is successful with a certain style, fit the players that work in it and bench the rest.

 

[arthurka]

I saw a Sporting fan on YouTube talking about how he came in there and kicked out any players, even popular ones who didn't train or work hard enough.

Bye Marcus! (Kidding, owners would never let him go sadly).

I actually think they are counting on it

 

[2 man midfield]

He’s not playing well enough to not get dropped, and any credit he had in the bank with the fans is long gone. Amorim doesn’t owe Rashford anything, it’s not like he gave him a 30 goal season. It’s basically a blank slate now, a case of work hard and deliver, or sit on the bench. Exactly as it should be.

 

[Hammondo]

I would imagine he’ll be delighted to get away from the touchline. He’s far more dangerous closer to goal.

We literally have a thread for players that will do well or not under the new manager. This one is unnecessary.

That's not been true for a while, he's been better doing balls over from deeper, been useless closer to goal

 

[Sarni]

Such as?

That he’s colluding with other players to get managers fired because his power is almost limitless. After the argument of a certain group of players doing that collapsed when ETH turned over most of tj squad and still got fired some have convinced themselves that it’s all Rashford’s (and to some extent Bruno’s) doing.

 

[Hammondo]

That he’s colluding with other players to get managers fired because his power is almost limitless. After the argument of a certain group of players doing that collapsed when ETH turned over most of tj squad and still got fired some have convinced themselves that it’s all Rashford’s (and to some extent Bruno’s) doing.

How is that relevant to this thread though?

 

[Sarni]

How is that relevant to this thread though?

Well if we are discussing Rashford’s ability to adapt to a new system and his commitment, it is pretty relevant to point out that people may have an exaggerated negative perception of him.

 

[Dan_F]

What? He is a terrible striker. I see him as a late sub when we need a goal. He is always more effective against tired defenders.

And if he can't accept that role he moves on.

That's not been true for a while, he's been better doing balls over from deeper, been useless closer to goal

I’m not saying he should play as the lone striker. I’m saying he’s better when he’s not being asked to play so wide that he’s hugging the touchline. He was much narrower in his best season under Ten Hag, even when playing off the left. He’s been better at playing balls from deep because that’s where and what he’s being asked to play and do.

Wasn’t it something like one big chance each for both Bruno and Rashford under Ten Hag in the Premier League this season? Both should be playing far closer to goal and it’s been a source of our issues.

Rashford is ideal to play in that left inside forward role as he’s more creative than Garnacho at the moment, with better link up play. We’ll see of course how things pan out, it’s no drama having differing opinions.

 

[Hammondo]

I’m not saying he should play as the lone striker. I’m saying he’s better when he’s not being asked to play so wide that he’s hugging the touchline. He was much narrower in his best season under Ten Hag, even when playing off the left. He’s been better at playing balls from deep because that’s where and what he’s being asked to play and do.

Wasn’t it something like one big chance each for both Bruno and Rashford under Ten Hag in the Premier League this season? Both should be playing far closer to goal and it’s been a source of our issues.

Rashford is ideal to play in that left inside forward role as he’s more creative than Garnacho at the moment, with better link up play. We’ll see of course how things pan out, it’s no drama having differing opinions.

But Rashford has played close to goal this season, and he's been poor. He really doesn't have the technical ability to play that role.

 

[Hammondo]

Well if we are discussing Rashford’s ability to adapt to a new system and his commitment, it is pretty relevant to point out that people may have an exaggerated negative perception of him.

Well he's been one of our least adaptive players, with Rashford fans saying every season he should be played differently because whatever we do is using him improperly.

 

[bosskeano]

Rashford is the one player in this normal starting XI that should have a bit of anxiety about where he fits into this system mainly bc his lack of defensive work rate will be a huge problem

 

[criticalanalysis]

I mean dude the standard is ridiculously high. You are talking about arguably 2 of the 5 best ball-playing CBs ever in Luiz and Silva. I don't think it's crazy to point out that Martinez is nowhere near that level as of yet.

I mean your original point was 'Utd don't have a defender who can pass good enough to be challenging for the PL title' and then you've elevated Luiz and Silva as passing gods/GOATs.

There is a middle ground of Martinez potentially being very good in that role and that don't we need this mythical GOAT level talent to be able to win the PL. Are you saying Stones, Dias, Laporte, Akanji etc are levels above Martinez? Of course not because even Guardiola wouldn't say that. The bigger issue is the overall team and structure, which is another topic. I'm simply saying, purely talking about passing ability, Martinez more than fits the bill of having that quality to play as the central defender in a back 3 and yes good enough to challenge.

 

[chay chay okocha]

If you look at our play our CBs did less and less of this after year 1. Martinez in his first season was instrumental in passing through the lines. Then he got injured second season and it as if ETH didn’t trust any other CB to play between the lines and then abandoned the idea.

It's actually an interesting discussion. I think in ETH's first year, it was both Lisandro and Shaw that were trusted to progress the ball between the lines from deep. My recollection is that Varane and Dalot did try but with much less success. It was also the season where we made Eriksen a first team player despite a well known lack of athleticism, precisely because passing through the lines was a big part of our approach.

The second year we clearly saw less of that - but it's a little unclear whether that was by design or by necessity. Our two most progressive passers from defence were injured, and Eriksen was also (I think) injured from the Caroll challenge. That basically meant that our 3 deepest, trusted passers were out. We did however sign Onana, and in pre-season, there seemed to be a clear approach to use Onana high to bait the press. All of this went to shit when Onana had a disastrous start to the season, including passing through the lines to central midfielders (primarily Casemiro) who were constantly getting the ball nicked off them for bad turnovers. We then seemed to abandon the bait and play a much more direct style of football with Dalot as a high receiver. When I think back to whether this was the original intent given the squad, or whether ETH just decided he could not really play with a baited press and passing through the lines without key players, is really unclear to me. It's probably fool hardy for anyone else to claim one or the other - would you really want a CB pairing of Maguire Lindelof and a senior CM like Casemiro playing such intricate, pacey balls through tight spaces?

That said, ETH's other approach clearly did not work as well, and he's paid the ultimate price for it. On hindsight, we'd probably have been better off resorting to Ole ball, but it was clearly not the direction we wanted to go as a club. Maybe there was a pragmatic middle ground but I'm not smart enough to think about what it should have been.

 

[Dan_F]

But Rashford has played close to goal this season, and he's been poor. He really doesn't have the technical ability to play that role.

Compared to when? He played far closer to goal in his first season under Ten Hag, even when playing from the left. It’s quite clear he’s being asked to play very wide this season, there’s multiple times where Dalot is running through one v one because Rashford has gone wide and deep, pulling the full back out of position. It’s a definite tactic being used, compared to last night where I thought he drifted around the pitch far more at times.

 

[Witchking]

Might as well knock OT down and build some flats and an Asda then.

Think Morrisons maybe a better fit. Overpriced just like United's players.

 

[lex talionis]

I see it differently. Ten Hag’s system let down the wingers.

An interesting debate is there to be had whether ETH's tactics asked too much of wingers or whether his wingers gave him too little. Probably a combination of the two, but as I see it ETH asked his wingers to carry too much of the scoring burden.

That said, Antony and Sancho were diabolical under ETH no matter what we believe he was asking them to do, but if Antony was encouraged to shoot from distance at every chance possible that falls on ETH, who consistently started Antony regardless of disappointing his form was. Sancho had other issues that we're all familiar with. Garnacho was and is still in his infancy as a first team regular, so he gets a pass. But Rashford was and in his peak years and we all know how poor he was last season. Why...that's the debate.

 

[NZT-One]

An interesting debate is there to be had whether ETH's tactics asked too much of wingers or whether his wingers gave him too little. Probably a combination of the two, but as I see it ETH asked his wingers to carry too much of the scoring burden.

That said, Antony and Sancho were diabolical under ETH no matter what we believe he was asking them to do, but if Antony was encouraged to shoot from distance at every chance possible that falls on ETH, who consistently started Antony regardless of disappointing his form was. Sancho had other issues that we're all familiar with. Garnacho was and is still in his infancy as a first team regular, so he gets a pass. But Rashford was and in his peak years and we all know how poor he was last season. Why...that's the debate.

The answer for me is that Rashford a) isn't suited to this "hug the touchline" role that ETHs system asked him to fill in terms of skillset, preference and workrate while b) was having a standing for ETH that was next to untouchable. Same as with Bruno. There were quite a few games where those two played the 90 minutes without really popping up with more than average contribution yet they were rarely subbed for it.

That being said, we all know how problematic the system was as a whole so no area on the pitch would have been able to "work properly".

 

[DSG]

An interesting debate is there to be had whether ETH's tactics asked too much of wingers or whether his wingers gave him too little. Probably a combination of the two, but as I see it ETH asked his wingers to carry too much of the scoring burden.

That said, Antony and Sancho were diabolical under ETH no matter what we believe he was asking them to do, but if Antony was encouraged to shoot from distance at every chance possible that falls on ETH, who consistently started Antony regardless of disappointing his form was. Sancho had other issues that we're all familiar with. Garnacho was and is still in his infancy as a first team regular, so he gets a pass. But Rashford was and in his peak years and we all know how poor he was last season. Why...that's the debate.

Posted this in another thread. I’m sure eTH’s tactics made sense to him, but in reality, it was a complete clusterfeck.

Quick summary, he employed inverted wingers on both sides, meaning they wanted to cut inside. But he typically had the RB and LB pinching in too, or staying back as part of a back 3. The result is either the fullbacks were in the same spaces or the wingers were in 1v2 situations…

There really is no form of defense of ETH at this point. His tactics and team selection compounded his problems. I think he’s a classic case of someone who thinks he’s smart, but actually isn’t.

 

[ROFLUTION]

I would imagine he’ll be delighted to get away from the touchline. He’s far more dangerous closer to goal.

We literally have a thread for players that will do well or not under the new manager. This one is unnecessary.

That's a fair point actually. Receiving the ball with only 1 player in front of him if he plays as an AMC next to Bruno might be a huge benefit.

 

[RedRover]

This reads like it could have come from Rashford’s PR team

Ha.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

I mean your original point was 'Utd don't have a defender who can pass good enough to be challenging for the PL title' and then you've elevated Luiz and Silva as passing gods/GOATs.

There is a middle ground of Martinez potentially being very good in that role and that don't we need this mythical GOAT level talent to be able to win the PL. Are you saying Stones, Dias, Laporte, Akanji etc are levels above Martinez? Of course not because even Guardiola wouldn't say that. The bigger issue is the overall team and structure, which is another topic. I'm simply saying, purely talking about passing ability, Martinez more than fits the bill of having that quality to play as the central defender in a back 3 and yes good enough to challenge.

Is Martinez going to be the central CB in a back 3? Because passing range there is far more important than from the wider CBs. My assumption was he'd be the left CB - which again to the original point is harder to be the focal point of building from the back due to being in wider areas with narrower passing angles.

Regarding the second point, Stones is a level above, the rest aren't. Your point about the broader system is exactly correct - but I don't really see the squad you have currently being a good fit for what Amorim has done here in Portugal for years now.

 

[Ibi Dreams]

What do people think about Hojlund as the CF? From what I've seen it sounds like Amorim really likes the wing backs to cross and service the striker, which sounds really good for him at first glance. I'm certainly intrigued by the way Gyokeres went from scoring decently at Coventry to 60 goals in 60 games for Sporting

 

[OldTrevil]

The 3421 team I'd be interested to see is this.

Onana
Yoro de Light Martinez
Mazraoui Ugarte Mainoo Dalot
Amad Mount
Hojlund​

 

[paulscholes18]

What do people think about Hojlund as the CF? From what I've seen it sounds like Amorim really likes the wing backs to cross and service the striker, which sounds really good for him at first glance. I'm certainly intrigued by the way Gyokeres went from scoring decently at Coventry to 60 goals in 60 games for Sporting

I think Amorim will like Hojlund, I see similarities between him and Gyokeres, both like the run in behind and run the channels well and good at dribbling, of cause Gyokeres is more complete in these areas but I’m sure that will come in time for Hojlund.

 

[M Bison]

Not sure who will succeed but seeing some of the suggested lineups, where do we need to strengthen?

Feels like we’re very light at LM (Garnacho annd Shaw if we’re generous?) and CM (Casemiro and Eriksen as backups?), with CB not far behind (Maguire, Evans, Lindelof backup?).

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

He is probably our worst player in defensive phase (including Rashford). So i think not.

An interesting watch (Nice @Raees).

Note the comments about what he expects from his wing backs (specifically that Sportings current LWB isn’t really there for his defensive work).

@Sly … I’ve only seen bits of Sporting but as a Sporting fan, is this video balanced/about right in terms of (1) how you play and (2) realistic United players who’d fit (about 11 minutes into video)?

 

[criticalanalysis]

Is Martinez going to be the central CB in a back 3? Because passing range there is far more important than from the wider CBs. My assumption was he'd be the left CB - which again to the original point is harder to be the focal point of building from the back due to being in wider areas with narrower passing angles.

Regarding the second point, Stones is a level above, the rest aren't. Your point about the broader system is exactly correct - but I don't really see the squad you have currently being a good fit for what Amorim has done here in Portugal for years now.

Like I said, Martinez has the ability to play there. Whether he will is up to Amorin. The only advantage of playing him at the LCB is simply because he's left footed.

He's not really a sweeper/organiser type but if anything it makes sense for him to play as the central defender because he won't get as exposed in the wider channels. Also as you say, if the passing is that important from that central area, it would be silly to play anyone else there like de Ligt, Yoro (very green and unknown quantity) or the other defenders who are levels below Martinez.

Anyways let's revisit this is 6 months as one other poster put it.