Sure - but we're talking strictly passing ability, where Luiz was unequivocally world class.
Which of our player's fit Amorim's style/tactics particularly well or poorly?
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I’m happy to revisit this once Martinez has 6 months or so under a coach who values accurate and progressive passing from the back.
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ETH valued that didn't he? I thought his passing through the lines was one of main reasons we got him
There is no evidence to suggest he did.
He selected, left on and then selected again and again and again, players who showed absolutely no respect for the ball and accurate passing.
Good passers turned to shit under him. It got steadily worse throughout his time in charge.
I think our squad has a surprisingly good fit for Amorim, assuming he plays with a similar formation to how he plays at Sporting.
Onana is ideal.
The back 3 can be built pretty well out of the current CB options we have. I would guess it goes Martinez-Yoro-De Ligt, but I haven't seen enough of Yoro to know whether he'd be better in the middle or the right. The CBs left and right need to be decent passers, while the guy in the middle would be more like the person who steps up to do interceptions. Maguire and Evans would be fine backups for that system.
The midfield pairing calls for a ball winner and someone able to carry the ball forward, and good enough to get involved with intricate passing in support of the attackers. That is a perfect fit for Ugarte and Mainoo respectively. Casemiro and Eriksen would be a decent enough alternatives too.
Up front, in terms of style, there's a lot of ways to do two attackers behind a lone striker. The forward striker probably has to be Hojland, since they need to be someone who pushes defenders back and works the channels. That ain't Zirkzee. But behind him, there's a few combinations of Bruno, Amad, Zirkzee, Rashford and Garnacho that could potentially work. My preference would be Bruno/Amad, but we can experiement.
Wingback is probably the trickiest fit. Dalot and Maz are decent attacking fullbacks, but they're not true wingers. Rashford and Garnacho don't feel right. I suspect we'll see Dalot or Maz used on the right this season. A lot of people have suggested Antony as left wing back, and I'm sure we'll at least try that out, but god knows if it'll work. But these are bound to be priorities for us in the Jan or Summer transfer windows.
Other than wingback I think that the main worry I have about the formation is fitting in Rashford and Garnacho. Neither striker me as right for the lone striker role, and intricate play on the edge of the box isn't really their strengths. We can try them out there but it may not suit. They aren't wingbacks either. Rashford is probably in last chance saloon this season anyway, but it should be obvious that we have to find a role that suits Garnacho's strengths.
But aside from those worries, I don't see too many square pegs in round holes with formation. The bigger issue will just be getting good performances out of them.
Onana is ideal.
The back 3 can be built pretty well out of the current CB options we have. I would guess it goes Martinez-Yoro-De Ligt, but I haven't seen enough of Yoro to know whether he'd be better in the middle or the right. The CBs left and right need to be decent passers, while the guy in the middle would be more like the person who steps up to do interceptions. Maguire and Evans would be fine backups for that system.
The midfield pairing calls for a ball winner and someone able to carry the ball forward, and good enough to get involved with intricate passing in support of the attackers. That is a perfect fit for Ugarte and Mainoo respectively. Casemiro and Eriksen would be a decent enough alternatives too.
Up front, in terms of style, there's a lot of ways to do two attackers behind a lone striker. The forward striker probably has to be Hojland, since they need to be someone who pushes defenders back and works the channels. That ain't Zirkzee. But behind him, there's a few combinations of Bruno, Amad, Zirkzee, Rashford and Garnacho that could potentially work. My preference would be Bruno/Amad, but we can experiement.
Wingback is probably the trickiest fit. Dalot and Maz are decent attacking fullbacks, but they're not true wingers. Rashford and Garnacho don't feel right. I suspect we'll see Dalot or Maz used on the right this season. A lot of people have suggested Antony as left wing back, and I'm sure we'll at least try that out, but god knows if it'll work. But these are bound to be priorities for us in the Jan or Summer transfer windows.
Other than wingback I think that the main worry I have about the formation is fitting in Rashford and Garnacho. Neither striker me as right for the lone striker role, and intricate play on the edge of the box isn't really their strengths. We can try them out there but it may not suit. They aren't wingbacks either. Rashford is probably in last chance saloon this season anyway, but it should be obvious that we have to find a role that suits Garnacho's strengths.
But aside from those worries, I don't see too many square pegs in round holes with formation. The bigger issue will just be getting good performances out of them.
Every current players would fit into the new system, except Maguire and Antony.
Maguire in the middle of 3? Do ball winning, distribution? Are you kidding? What he does for England under Southgate is 1 thing, what he can do under a modern manager, is another. Casemiro would be a fall better Centre CB if not Deligt. Even Martinez is a better option.
Antony, not sure how he can fit into any manager's system, absolutely no discipline.
Maguire in the middle of 3? Do ball winning, distribution? Are you kidding? What he does for England under Southgate is 1 thing, what he can do under a modern manager, is another. Casemiro would be a fall better Centre CB if not Deligt. Even Martinez is a better option.
Antony, not sure how he can fit into any manager's system, absolutely no discipline.
I disagree, I think he just failed at it.
From what ive researched, the new coach favours wingers as wing backs. I won't be surprised to see Antony given a chance. Under Eth, he did in fact have some discipline, he was one of the wingers that Eth could rely on to get stuck in and track back/run.
That's fair enough.
For me he can talk about valueing it, but the proof is in the pudding. For 3 years he excused and tolerated bad passing - that isn't valuing it, no matter what his intentions were.
Well, the question is more about which players Amorim will bring to the club. Usually the new manager brigns some of his favourites. Unfortunately ten Hag was a total disaster, signed crap/mediocre players because they were dutch, Ajax players or played in the Eredivisie. Hopefully Amorim will do a lot better. He has to, as he obviously sees that the current squad simply isn't good enough to fight for the top4, not to mention the championship trophy. And he's gonna have a difficult task to get rid of all the useless ones like Antony, Zirkzee, Lindelöf, Maguire, looong list.
Wouldn't the hope rather be that that stuff (the coach picking targets) is well and truly over, and that the transfer team primarily takes care of these things?
This was INEOS's statement but proved to be a lie i think. After the transfer team was allegedly commissioned to take care of the new signings (and ten Hag's contract was extended) the dutch disaster Zirkzee arrived, the dutch and former Ajax player de Ligt arrived, and the dutch and former Ajax player Mazraoui arrived. That's 3 out of 5 signings. Well, could be a coincidence but apparently ten Hag had a say in the new signings.
Take a leaf out of what the scousers did under Klopp and don't hire anyone who's played for Amorim before.
It was not by design but they didn't end up buying any of Klopp's players. Did try in for Gundogan etc though
It was not by design but they didn't end up buying any of Klopp's players. Did try in for Gundogan etc though
I don't see Rashford fitting in.
But De Ligt and Mazraoui filled gaps and are good players while Ten Hag had zero ties with Zirkzee.
Anyway, one way or another, United needs to move out of the space where the manager has a big influence. It may have been more complex with Ten Hag, who may have had existing priveleges (he also got to retain that 'manager' title), but you'd hope Amorim won't get that chance.
I think our back 3 will be Yoro de Ligt and Martinez but we probably will need to look for 1 more young CB as Evans is the only real cover we have for the position other than Lindelof and Shaw whose futures are to be decided. Maguire will be sold in January as he isn't quick or comfortable on the ball and will be a total liability in Amorim's system. Playing him in it will send him back to meme-town and remove any residual value he has.
Midfield of Ugarte and Mainoo is solid enough and Eriksen and Casemiro provide options while we evaluate the younger players to come through from the Academy.
The wingbacks are where we are lightest and Amorim used upto 6 wingers in his squad to keep them fresh and hungry. Dalot and Mazraoui could do it although are more defensive that Ruben would want. Garnacho and Amad could potentially fill in these areas but it's potentially a waste of their talents. Shaw I suspect is perma-crocked and will be sidelined too much - if he's kept it will to be a potential option in the back 3.
I think we will see Amorim experiment massively in this area for a few games. He'll maybe try Anthony there and blood some of the younger players to see what he is working with. If Amass and Malacia can't make it I can see him wanting to buy at least 2 wingers if those experiments don't go well.
In Bruno, Amad, Garnacho and Zirkzee we have a range of attackers that can press and occupy 2 of the front 3 roles in Amorim's system - Rashford can't be trusted to take one of those roles.
As focal striker we only have Hojlund, with a potentially moody Rashford literally on the sidelines. We need another option, unless Rashford see's the light and changes his attitude.
We will probably need to go big on an alternate striker and I hope the club went for ZXZ as a cheap option because they were holding back resources for this, rather than us having no further funds as I can't see us generating much revenue from sales of Maguire and a surly Rashford in January.
Midfield of Ugarte and Mainoo is solid enough and Eriksen and Casemiro provide options while we evaluate the younger players to come through from the Academy.
The wingbacks are where we are lightest and Amorim used upto 6 wingers in his squad to keep them fresh and hungry. Dalot and Mazraoui could do it although are more defensive that Ruben would want. Garnacho and Amad could potentially fill in these areas but it's potentially a waste of their talents. Shaw I suspect is perma-crocked and will be sidelined too much - if he's kept it will to be a potential option in the back 3.
I think we will see Amorim experiment massively in this area for a few games. He'll maybe try Anthony there and blood some of the younger players to see what he is working with. If Amass and Malacia can't make it I can see him wanting to buy at least 2 wingers if those experiments don't go well.
In Bruno, Amad, Garnacho and Zirkzee we have a range of attackers that can press and occupy 2 of the front 3 roles in Amorim's system - Rashford can't be trusted to take one of those roles.
As focal striker we only have Hojlund, with a potentially moody Rashford literally on the sidelines. We need another option, unless Rashford see's the light and changes his attitude.
We will probably need to go big on an alternate striker and I hope the club went for ZXZ as a cheap option because they were holding back resources for this, rather than us having no further funds as I can't see us generating much revenue from sales of Maguire and a surly Rashford in January.
Does he like to give young players a chance? If yes, then Amass could find himself in the reckoning for the LWB position.
De Ligt and Mazraoui were fairly sensible signings that I expect we'd have been interested in no matter who the manager was. Good age, good quality and available for a good price in positions that we did need to strengthen. Maybe ETH having managed them before may have been the deciding factor if we were otherwise 50/50 with another player, but that's very different than the manager actually providing the targets.
I hope Amorim manages to inject some confidence and consistency in all our players.
Hrm? Ten Hag basically relied far more on CBs for progressive passing given the lack of technical ability from deep-lying midfield though.
Also, if we take your argument at face value and agree that Martinez hasn't had occasion to demonstrate his passing for 3 years now, surely it's a bit ridiculous to say he's better at passing than one of the best passing CBs of all time on the basis of his time in the Eridivisie?
If you look at our play our CBs did less and less of this after year 1. Martinez in his first season was instrumental in passing through the lines. Then he got injured second season and it as if ETH didn’t trust any other CB to play between the lines and then abandoned the idea.
Might as well knock OT down and build some flats and an Asda then.
We don't have any great players so whether his style is a fit or not isn't really a concern. I don't care if he puts them all at the other end of the field from their natural position.
Bruno will be fine - he's so smart he'll be able to change his style. He's not just a counter attack give the ball away merchant with my 200 through ball speculative passes a game guy.
Is eriksen strong on both feet because he may come unstuck in this system unless he can play behind the striker on the right side?
From what Ive read, Ugarte is exactly the sort of player he likes, a ball winner.
I wonder if Rashfords days are numbered though, as he likes wingers to go up and down the pitch. Just don't think his work rate will be enough for Amorim.
I wonder if Rashfords days are numbered though, as he likes wingers to go up and down the pitch. Just don't think his work rate will be enough for Amorim.
The central centre back doesn't need pace. Only the wide defenders do. De Ligt and Maguire will be absolutely fine. Martínez might be the only player who might be in trouble IMO, because he's not gonna displace MDL/Maguire as the starting CCB, and he's not ideal as a wide defender. However, his in-possession qualities will be too hard to ignore for Amorim IMO, so he will try to find a place for him.
Yoro and Evans have pace. Lindelöf isn't ideal but he's an alright option.
Hojlund is the one I hope he can mold into a player, and I think he will.
I agree with nearly all of this, but am slightly worried about Mainoo being a part of the midfield 2. I suspect he might be a little too weak in defensive transitions and duels to be ideal in a 2 man midfield, and while he can retain possession really well, I think he has not shown the ability to consistently advance the ball between the lines.
Looking into Amorims system which really focuses on smart attacking midfielders,.wingbacks and a powerful quick striker up top are we going to see the end of Rashford?
The only role I can see him fulfilling in an Amorim system is the lone striker where he can utilise his pace to get in beyond. However we have seen multiple times that he is not keen on that position and wants to be an inside forward who starts wide on the left. If he uses his tried and tested system from Braga and Sporting (I hope he does) then where does Rash fit in?
I think we will see him used rotationally with Hojlund at first but I just can't see him working as the focal point striker in a dynamic pressing team. He has great ability, and pace but I think in Amorims way of playing you need a full toolbox as a striker (Hojlund doesn't have it either yet) he needs a bit of everything.
The only role I can see him fulfilling in an Amorim system is the lone striker where he can utilise his pace to get in beyond. However we have seen multiple times that he is not keen on that position and wants to be an inside forward who starts wide on the left. If he uses his tried and tested system from Braga and Sporting (I hope he does) then where does Rash fit in?
I think we will see him used rotationally with Hojlund at first but I just can't see him working as the focal point striker in a dynamic pressing team. He has great ability, and pace but I think in Amorims way of playing you need a full toolbox as a striker (Hojlund doesn't have it either yet) he needs a bit of everything.
I see it differently. Ten Hag’s system let down the wingers.
He will most likely be played as one of the inside forwards, competing with Bruno, Garnacho, Amad (Mount? 
) for two places. Or, realistically, with all of the above except for Bruno as the latter will most likely play 95% of the time (unless Amorim is going to move him deeper but that’s unlikely).
Those attacking midfielders aren’t necessarily both nimble-footed smart passers of the ball in Amorim’s system.
) for two places. Or, realistically, with all of the above except for Bruno as the latter will most likely play 95% of the time (unless Amorim is going to move him deeper but that’s unlikely).Those attacking midfielders aren’t necessarily both nimble-footed smart passers of the ball in Amorim’s system.
I saw a Sporting fan on YouTube talking about how he came in there and kicked out any players, even popular ones who didn't train or work hard enough.
Bye Marcus! (Kidding, owners would never let him go sadly).
Bye Marcus! (Kidding, owners would never let him go sadly).
I'd have no issue if he moved on. Far too little return for the investment.
If he's not going to fit into the system, it's a good enough reason for both parties to move.
If he's not going to fit into the system, it's a good enough reason for both parties to move.
I bloody hope so. This guy was was walking on the pitch yesterday.
Im certainly at the point where I don’t care. Whatever benefits the team the best. It’s not as if I expect goals from him these days sadly.
Another one will bite the dust. Rashford is eternal. Devouring managers is his pastime.
How on earth do you know how hard Rashford trains?