But that does not fit his style.
Which of our player's fit Amorim's style/tactics particularly well or poorly?
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Where’s Tah then?
I mean it’s a work in progress. They’re also top of Bundesliga and have conceded 8 in 9.
The results are irrelevant anyway. It’s a high risk system that has been in place for a dozen games.
I think it’s clear that DeLigt is not as fast or agile as Upemecano or Kim and that is the simple reason why DeLigt no longer plays for Bayern.
And to quote your post of “I keep reading this”. There’s probably a good reason for that.
Having read through the majority of comments raised by our contributors, I'm impressed by the abundance of knowledge professed by the supporters. I do not claim to comprehend the tactical wisdom/ expertise of Ruben Amorim, but he appears to be a successful coach with Sporting and his previous posts. What I have encountered is the variation of who would be a "good fit" or "bad fit", I would request a much more measured "wait and see". The various viewpoints on Rashford, Garnacho, et al, make for interesting analysis/ perspectives, but as I've said "wait and see", as surely, (perhaps my cynicism) we've been through this many times in the past decade. Our club has brought in the most famous managers on the planet, and each time the conclusion was the same...the bullet. I hope I'm completely wrong with my cynicism, but their are players at our club who, no matter who came in, are mediocre in their play, and amateurish in their attitude. Amorim will need ALL the qualities that Sir Matt and Sir Alex brought to the job, PLUS. Good Luck to him.
Bayern being Bayern, didnt want to pay up and waiting for him on a free.
Lets not act as if Bundesliga is some special league where slower defenders get exposed... I have seen Hummels play in a high line in the German league and become one of the best defenders with limited mobility.
It is clear he doesn't play for Bayern yes, well done. It is not clear that the high line was the reason he left. Can you show me anywhere where the manager, or anyone at the board coming out saying that is the reason, if not you are basing it on your personal opinion, rather than a fact.
Would it mean if Davies leaves Bayern it will be because he is too slow?
I think Amad would make 1 of the 2 attacking midfielder, he is fantastic is ball retention and always make good decisions. Maybe Zirkzee could be a surprise as the other attacking midfielder. Maybe Antony will be converted to left wingback. I pray to God that he embraces his new role. I think Garnacho is likely lose out unless he can reinvente himself.
No it’ll be because he’s rejected Bayerns offer of a new deal. The polar opposite situation to say Bayern selling a player for less than what they paid in the space of two years.
Is it true that he is pretty married for the 343/3421 formation and couldn't come to terms with the Liverpool management as that wasn't acceptable to them?
Liverpool fans, is it true? Was this the chatter during the summer?
Liverpool fans, is it true? Was this the chatter during the summer?
I think the two players who do not fit well are Bruno & Rashford, and quite honestly I think they were also the biggest hinderance to ETH as well. Rashford does not offer anything defensively (pressing as a team) and Bruno gives the ball away needlessly in the final third way too many times. I could see the following setup:
Garnacho-Hojlund-Amad
LWB-Ugarte-Mainoo-Dalot/Mazraoui
Martinez-DeLigt-Yoro
Onana
LWB-Ugarte-Mainoo-Dalot/Mazraoui
Martinez-DeLigt-Yoro
Onana
3 defenders, not 5.
Ugarte played for him at Lisbon
Why wouldn't he go 3421? If it's true that he's not averse to using wide attackers as wing backs, that would make much better use of the squad. Not just Bruno, but also Mount (who could hardly play anywhere else). Amad, Mainoo and Eriksen would work in that two as well, and maybe Zirkzee.
If he goes in that direction though, Rashford looks like the threatened one. I really don't see him functioning as an attacking wing back. Garnacho might, Antony too (save for the general lack of quality).
343, or some variation of it, was used successfully by Conte.
- 3-4-3: Conte's preferred formation, which he used to win the Premier League and FA Cup. This formation featured a front three of Hazard, Costa, and Willian, with N'Golo Kanté and Nemanja Matic in the midfield, and Marcos Alonso and Victor Moses as wing-backs.
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rotate Shaw with Martinez at LCB, sell Malacia.
Buy Alvaro back and rotate with Amass.
Buy Alvaro back and rotate with Amass.
Do you think Dalot and Mazraoui are good wing backs?
I think this move probably raises the stock of:
Amass - LWB wide open and he looks very promising going forward
Lisandro - LCB good fit for him on and off ball
Ugarte - Played his best under this manager in this system. PSG are good in the market, especially in midfield and bought him off of his form under this manager and system
Amad - Edwards seems similar, done okay there mostly until recently
De Ligt - central CB role should suit him
Not sure who it will hurt, other than Malacia (he seems like less of a wingback going forward) and it will no doubt kill the career of one or more of our attackers.
Hard to say which, since for our attackers it seems like more of who develops and wins the spots and who fizzles out and moves to slightly smaller leagues and tries to flourish again there. Less so about exact roles. Who does Amorim rate and who doesn’t he? Presumably Amorim will pick his favorites and sell the rest. Can Garnacho work a little more tucked inside? Might take him some time, will he be patient or want a move if that’s the case?
Might hurt Mainoo in that we won’t be playing a 4-3-3 where he can be the LCM which feels like it would be best for him. Will Amorim trust him next to Ugarte, or want to buy an experienced #8 to start?
Mazraoui seems to have played his best football as an underlapping type FB so this may see Dalot move clear of him though he probably already is.
Will affect transfers significantly. Davies feels more likely since he’d thrive as an LWB (I’m Canadian, he’s special when he’s running vertically out wide, meh defensively). A Xhaka type, but we need that anyways. Another CB seems likely now, someone who can play the wide spots.
Amass - LWB wide open and he looks very promising going forward
Lisandro - LCB good fit for him on and off ball
Ugarte - Played his best under this manager in this system. PSG are good in the market, especially in midfield and bought him off of his form under this manager and system
Amad - Edwards seems similar, done okay there mostly until recently
De Ligt - central CB role should suit him
Not sure who it will hurt, other than Malacia (he seems like less of a wingback going forward) and it will no doubt kill the career of one or more of our attackers.
Hard to say which, since for our attackers it seems like more of who develops and wins the spots and who fizzles out and moves to slightly smaller leagues and tries to flourish again there. Less so about exact roles. Who does Amorim rate and who doesn’t he? Presumably Amorim will pick his favorites and sell the rest. Can Garnacho work a little more tucked inside? Might take him some time, will he be patient or want a move if that’s the case?
Might hurt Mainoo in that we won’t be playing a 4-3-3 where he can be the LCM which feels like it would be best for him. Will Amorim trust him next to Ugarte, or want to buy an experienced #8 to start?
Mazraoui seems to have played his best football as an underlapping type FB so this may see Dalot move clear of him though he probably already is.
Will affect transfers significantly. Davies feels more likely since he’d thrive as an LWB (I’m Canadian, he’s special when he’s running vertically out wide, meh defensively). A Xhaka type, but we need that anyways. Another CB seems likely now, someone who can play the wide spots.
A big part of this was because we didn't defend in midfield or higher up the pitch and the back 4 had no support. We've conceded a good amount of goals this season that were down to our defenders having to make split second decisions on which free man to pick up while the ball carrier had time to make a cup of coffee before passing the ball to the player that was left free.
I feel like that number 8 role, for a midfielder who has licence to push forward into an attacking midfield position while we are attacking is absolutely tailor made for Kobbie.
My opinion. You don't have to agree.
Maybe, but it seems like a lot of space to cover for him defensively. Too early to say what kind of midfielder he will be exactly (for us on here, a proper football expert might know, hopefully Amorim does), but right now I think he'd look best in the following sort of setup, doing stuff in the half space and with a proper #6 cleaning up behind him.
Mainoo---------RCM
-------------#6-----------
But yeah, if he can form a good partnership with Ugarte in this new 3-4-3, that would be fantastic. We certainly can't be any less compact than we've largely been under Ten Hag, so I might be wrong about his lack of pace mattering.
You don't have the ball-playing central defender who is crucial to making the system work. Say what you will about David Luiz and his defensive lapses (completely cut out under Conte, for what it's worth), but he's unequivocally one of the best CBs in the history of the sport on the ball. His ability to break the lines from deep was vital to mask early Kante's limitations in possession.
Also the other crux of the system is that you have a deep-lying midfield playmaker who is also one of the best destructive midfielders in the world - Luiz and Matic eliminating threats down the centre and being so good on the ball is what unleashed Kante to press forward and back. I don't think it's crazy to say that Ugarte could fulfill the role Kante had in the Conte title-winning side of 16/17, but the structure around him doesn't exist for that to be more broadly repeatable from a team success perspective.
I think Amad will play more under Amorim in the Trincao role. I am hoping he turns Hojlund into the player Gykoreres was for him at sporting. Martinez, Yoro, Bruno and Ugarte also big fits to his system . Biggest issue he has is left wing back and someone to rotate with Mainoo.Think that will be his priority in Jan. Zirkzee, Rashford and Casemiro could struggle. With everyone fit
GK: Onana
RWB: Dalot
RCB: Yoro
CB: De Ligt
LCB: Martinez
LWB: Shaw (Optimistic)
CM: Ugarte
CM: Mainoo
RW:Amad
LW: Bruno (Goncalves Role)
ST:Hojlund
GK: Onana
RWB: Dalot
RCB: Yoro
CB: De Ligt
LCB: Martinez
LWB: Shaw (Optimistic)
CM: Ugarte
CM: Mainoo
RW:Amad
LW: Bruno (Goncalves Role)
ST:Hojlund
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Bro what?! Martinez says hello.
I mean come on, you can't possibly think Martinez can hold a candle to the likes of David Luiz and Thiago Silva - who have been at the core of the most successful 3ATB PL systems. Also Martinez is more likely to play from the left, which inherently limits his passing angles anyway.
if you're comparing based on what they've achieved, then fair enough because Martinez has very limited experience in a back 3. In terms of ball playing ability, I think you're underestimating him or are just not aware. I hate to be that guy but this compilation is literally from about his first 6-8 months (before his injury in April 22).
Ignore the hyperbolic title and commentary. I'd put it on mute.
Whether he'll play there is another question but if passing from the central defender is crucial to Amorin, then Martinez is more than qualified. He's not had the best last 12-18 months but it's not a matter of ability/form, it's a matter of if the system can create the passing options and angles for him. As you're probably well aware, our tactical shape and general ball movement has been shockingly bad under ETH.
Again, if Amorin actually cares then Martinez is the best choice there. The only reason to play him as the LCB is simply because he's left footed.
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i feel like most of our centre backs are too slow to play as high a line as he'd prefer
I mean dude the standard is ridiculously high. You are talking about arguably 2 of the 5 best ball-playing CBs ever in Luiz and Silva. I don't think it's crazy to point out that Martinez is nowhere near that level as of yet.
He might not be at the level yet, but he has the potential to excel under this type of coach.
Pep Guardiola: “Lisandro Martínez is top 5 centre-backs in the world. He made the difference on this game by playing passes through our defence”
Amorim has tended to favour a back-three structure with Sporting and, throughout his time in charge, his side has played a possession-based game. During their deep build-up play, Amorim wants his three centre-backs to break the first line through the centre of the pitch as often as possible.
Lisandro is definitely a great fit for this.
I think Rashford could be in trouble.
Not really. According to Amorin's system, Lisandro should do fine:
'Amorim will also adjust his side’s shape, with the middle centre-back – usually Coates – slightly higher (below). This means the two pivots widen and move closer to the wing-backs.
This can also open up more passing lines for direct and incisive forward passes from the wider of the centre-backs – now briefly in a pair – into attackers higher up the pitch. These passes will often bypass the closest options, and instead find an attacker dropping through the inside channels.'
https://www.premierleague.com/news/...heir deep build-up,pitch as often as possible.
I think Martinez is a better passer of a football than either Silva or Luiz. I say that as a huge fan of Silva as a defender and footballer.
Dalot benefit the most, wingers like rashford and ganarcho could be in trouble.
Attackers
Assuming he sticks to his preferred 3-4-3 system using inverted wingers, both rashford and Garnacho would be fighting it out for a spot on the left. On the right, it would most suit Amad. Whilst Antony on paper is an inverted winger, he lacks quality and would be glad to see him replaced asap! I can’t see how Zirkzee fits into this system at all.
Midfield
Ugarte should benefit seeing as he’s already used to the 3-4-3 system. Eriksen will most likely be culled.
If the two midfield spots go to Ugarte / Casemiro / Mainoo, only position for Bruno would be in a 3-4-1-2 as a 10. He’s got too much quality and I’m sure Amorim will have a plan for Bruno so will be interesting to see how he fits in.
Defence.
Since we’ve been struggling I’ve long wanted us to go three at the back to shore up our defence and stick to transition, counter attacking football. So would love to see Amorim deploy a more comprehensive version of it. I’d use Mazroui and Dalot as WBs although I expect us to finally replace shaw and Malacia in the summer.
Whilst Maguire has done well in an England back 3, Amorim plays with an extremely high line and I have reservations on Maguire’s speed in recovery to be a starter.
Predicted setup but not my preferred would be:
Onana
Yoro (Lindelof) De Ligt Martinez
Dalot Mainoo Ugarte Mazroui
Bruno
Hojlund Rashford/Garnacho
Assuming he sticks to his preferred 3-4-3 system using inverted wingers, both rashford and Garnacho would be fighting it out for a spot on the left. On the right, it would most suit Amad. Whilst Antony on paper is an inverted winger, he lacks quality and would be glad to see him replaced asap! I can’t see how Zirkzee fits into this system at all.
Midfield
Ugarte should benefit seeing as he’s already used to the 3-4-3 system. Eriksen will most likely be culled.
If the two midfield spots go to Ugarte / Casemiro / Mainoo, only position for Bruno would be in a 3-4-1-2 as a 10. He’s got too much quality and I’m sure Amorim will have a plan for Bruno so will be interesting to see how he fits in.
Defence.
Since we’ve been struggling I’ve long wanted us to go three at the back to shore up our defence and stick to transition, counter attacking football. So would love to see Amorim deploy a more comprehensive version of it. I’d use Mazroui and Dalot as WBs although I expect us to finally replace shaw and Malacia in the summer.
Whilst Maguire has done well in an England back 3, Amorim plays with an extremely high line and I have reservations on Maguire’s speed in recovery to be a starter.
Predicted setup but not my preferred would be:
Onana
Yoro (Lindelof) De Ligt Martinez
Dalot Mainoo Ugarte Mazroui
Bruno
Hojlund Rashford/Garnacho
I think Martinez is a great fit who is an asset with his passing. I think we should pump the brakes on putting him on the level of Thiago Silva and David Luiz. It's also not a 1:1 comparison anyway because Martinez won't be in the middle of the 3.
I'm sorry but that is frankly absurd.
Interested in seeing which of the academy lads get a chance under him! 
A few of them are reasonably well suited to his tactics, in theory...
If even 3 of them establish themselves as key squad members, let alone first team starters, I'm going to be a very happy chappy.
A few of them are reasonably well suited to his tactics, in theory...
- Shea Lacey and Amir Ibragimov seem natural fits as the twin No. 10s who mostly operate in the half-spaces.
- Chido Obi Martin as the mobile, all-purpose center forward with a well-calibrated eye for goal.
- Bendito Mantato has experience as a winger (his best role, for now) and wide defender, perhaps he could be developed as a wingback.
- James Overy and Dante Plunkett, also as wingbacks on the right and left flank respectively.
- Jack Fletcher and Jim Thwaites as the playmaking midfield pivot.
- Tyler Fletcher and Jayce Fitzgerald as the defensive minded midfield pivot.
- Godwill Kukonki as the left centerback. Consistency and ball usage seem improved, and he is athletically capable to boot.
- Elyh Harrison as the sweeper keeper who doubles up as an outfield player. It's very hard for youth goalkeepers to make it at big clubs, but you never know.
If even 3 of them establish themselves as key squad members, let alone first team starters, I'm going to be a very happy chappy.
Only if you don’t watch football.
Thiago Silva was an exceptional defender, far better than Martinez in that respect. But he didn’t have the range of passing Martinez has. He’s probably the best passer in our squad at the moment and it’s an asset we haven’t been using the way we should.
I think our centre backs will suit it generally. Maguire for sure as he likes a back 3 with England where he has often looked his best. I can see Martinez coping fine as well. No idea about de ligt or yoro but see no reason why it would be a problem.
I think our wing back options are fine in dalot and mazraoui. Worst part of dalots game is defending so playing a bit higher up would suit him and I just love mazraoui, think he's great.
In midfield I think ugarte clearly suits the style he plays, not sure about mainoo but maybe playing with ugarte will suit him. See no reason why casemiro won't do and better or worse than currently.
Front three I would use garnacho and Fernandes, both have loads of energy for pressing and work very hard and are best when near the oppositions goal. I can see rashford struggling personally because he just doesn't work very hard.
I think our wing back options are fine in dalot and mazraoui. Worst part of dalots game is defending so playing a bit higher up would suit him and I just love mazraoui, think he's great.
In midfield I think ugarte clearly suits the style he plays, not sure about mainoo but maybe playing with ugarte will suit him. See no reason why casemiro won't do and better or worse than currently.
Front three I would use garnacho and Fernandes, both have loads of energy for pressing and work very hard and are best when near the oppositions goal. I can see rashford struggling personally because he just doesn't work very hard.
What on earth are you talking about? Thiago Silva was literally the best or second best passing CB in the entire world for his entire career along with David Luiz.
Mason mount, Luke Shaw for obvious reason.
Better to bin them in the winter and get replacements
Better to bin them in the winter and get replacements
Whilst enjoying a successful career, Luiz will always be remembered for being a liability by fans and pundits worldwide, unfortunately.
Re Silva, his best years were played overseas. He was a player in decline during his short PL stint .