I guess I phrased that poorly - I think people are not properly realising the extent to which this is fundamental to the system, to the point where I don't think it even makes sense for United to hire Amorim for footballing reasons. Unless there are concrete plans in place to reinforce those positions in January, I suppose.
Which of our player's fit Amorim's style/tactics particularly well or poorly?
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Agree with a lot of this with a few exceptions.
Lindelöf I would be a bit concerned about his recovery pace and channel defending in particular. It sounds like one of the primary vulnerabilities in Amorims setup is losing possession in the final third and being hit on the counter in the channels, so if he is playing right center back I think many teams could target this area. Yoro would on paper be an excellent fit for this role, so maybe Lindelöf could be a decent backup option until his contract is up and we can replace him.
You didn't mention Martinez. I actually worry about him in this system for the same reasons as Lindelöf. We have conceded a number of chances (and goals?) already this season because he struggled to defend the left sided channel by himself. Since the wingbacks will be pushing high and wide to stretch the opposition as the team progress up the field, there is a big potential vulnerability here I think. This is further exacerbated by Amorims tendency - as I understand it - to use converted wingers in the left wingback role and allow them a bigger role in attack. If that spot became Garnachos for instance, I think a lot of teams in the Premier League would be licking their lips at the potential for creating chances down this side.
Imagine someone like Saka in all this space up against Martinez....I wonder if the dreaded cut back concessions we saw on numerous occasions last season could be making an unwelcome return soon? I keep hearing rumours about United continuing their interest in Branthwaite, who is among other things supposed to be a really strong channel defender on that side. So maybe there is a reason for that.
In a more overall tactical sense, I think your reflections on Rashford apply more broadly to the current squad unfortunately. Rashford, Bruno, Garnacho, Højlund...in my opinion they're all very hit and miss with their passing, close control and movement in tight spaces. As far as I understand and like you said as well, Amorim's system is mainly geared to create chances through the middle in the final third by quick passing and positional interchange through the space created through the wingbacks holding width. I'm not sure our squad is very well suited to this approach at the moment.
If we end up losing the ball a lot in the final third, there are many teams in the league that really could punish the suboptimal speed and channel defending in our backline on both sides potentially. Since neither Ugarte or Mainoo are very fast either, we could end up being very reliant on our counterpressing working to a T. It could also risk continuing this 'yoyo impact' of constantly transitioning from attack to defense and back again, which I think has contributed significantly to our issues with both in-game fatigue and injuries last season.
Obviously all of this assumes he transports his approach at Sporting 1:1 to United. He sounds to me like a savvy tactical manager, so maybe he compromises a bit in the beginning until we can plug some more holes in the transfer market. I suppose it's also possible that he can find a way to avoid losing the ball so much or manages to implement a really solid press in a way that Ten Hag failed to do.
Nailed it
Some people here talking about wingers don’t understand his system! With width instead coming from wingbacks and our previous wingers playing in a central two behind the striker
I’m all in on this one.
We’ve played 4231 to death and it’s come up short. I never understood why previously a more rigid 433 wasn’t tried by Ole. Our obsession with a 10 has been baffling…especially when we’ve lacked control in most games.
I just hope he sticks to what he knows and has had success with. It would be crazy to come and and stick to a failed 4231
He doesn’t play with wingbacks AND wingers
The wingers you’ve shown above would play as 2x number 10s behind the striker.
The width comes almost exclusively from the wingbacks with striker running the channels as well
I think the thing that perhaps fits well is the Bruno conundrum.
We have struggled to find the right balance with him in a midfield 3 and I’ve always thought when we’ve been up against it we should take him out of the equation and pick a solid defence and midfield foundation and consider him as more of a forward player.
In Amorim’s system he can play as one of the two 10s and we have the insurance of a back 3 and double pivot.
The loser may be someone like Garnacho. Perhaps the other “10” will be given licence to drift wide left in which case Rashford and Garnacho can compete for that spot.
We also need better wing-back options, particularly on the problematic left side.
Edit: I think we will see Amass. And if he is ready he could be a big hit in this system
We have struggled to find the right balance with him in a midfield 3 and I’ve always thought when we’ve been up against it we should take him out of the equation and pick a solid defence and midfield foundation and consider him as more of a forward player.
In Amorim’s system he can play as one of the two 10s and we have the insurance of a back 3 and double pivot.
The loser may be someone like Garnacho. Perhaps the other “10” will be given licence to drift wide left in which case Rashford and Garnacho can compete for that spot.
We also need better wing-back options, particularly on the problematic left side.
Edit: I think we will see Amass. And if he is ready he could be a big hit in this system
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Because they are the only players with pace and ability to beat a defender. Don't get me wrong, they might not be key players for the system but you can't gave a team without any attacker that can actually run fast. Amad is great on the ball but doesn't make things happen.
Maybe next season we see some chances but now the new manager will need to adjust to our options and I still expect us to play the same attack, maybe slightly different midfield setup.
Mazraoui and Dalot is fine for the right. I think he will bring in Amass and potentially look at a loan in January. There were links with Alfonso Davies on a free, which I’ll admit seem optimistic.
I don’t think you compromise on the manager because you’re because there’s a position or two you need to fill. This is of course assuming he wants to play the same system.
I keep reading this, he has been one of our better defenders this season. Immobile? I have seen him take on quick players this season and win the duels.
Because of Bruno.. he cannot play as #8 in 4-3-3 and only #10 is suitable for him..
Also, i don't know why people are still thinking Rashford being an important role.. considering his attitude, conscious of pass/shooting timing and cannot keep consistent depends on age, he is not a reliable player as a key role..
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Or he doesn't play for Holland because they have Van Dijk, Van Der Wen, De Vrij, Nathan Ake as alternatives? In fact, I can't really think of a time when he's been asked to play in a back 3.
Think Hojlund will suit his style. Also the wingers may benefit, particular amad as he likes his young players. Ugarte will be a player than benefits a lot and as played under him before. The main position that will benefit though is the defence. 3 CB having extra protection.
Good analysis this. Just to add my thoughts. I don't see Zirkzee being used as a central striker for exactly the reason you state, but I do think there is room for him in one of the other front three positions. Hojlund as a channel running striker is exactly what he is looking for though.Strugglers
Beneficiaries
- Zirkzee may struggle because as far as I know Amorim wants a channel running goal scoring striker, not an interlinking player.
- Mazroui as I'm unsure if he can play as quick as a wingback
- Same with Malacia who seemed a very defensive fullback
- Mount may struggle because I don't think he is that creative for a CAM & as far as I know Amorim's tactics tend to be breaking down the press than necessarily pressing so much themselves - still if that's untrue I don't think Mount can play enough line cutting balls to someone like Hojlund
- Rashford & Garnacho wingers may struggle playing centrally alongside Hojlund but may benefit in being more direct and closer to the goal themselves.
- Shaw may either struggle or benefit playing wingback but it's a gamble that is most likely looking like a loss due to his medical history.
Hojlund should be able to play Gyokeres wayAmad has been called these pseudo RM/AM player & that tactically is something Amorim tends to useBruno Fernandes I think will be used both higher up the pitch as a CAM/winger aswell as deeper down in a double pivot to dictate our play by playing more conservatory than necessarily quick. I can see Mainoo & Bruno for example rotating positions aswell as playing together alongside Ugarte. He is a very energetic player that is creative and is defensively underrated.Antony might be better because again if he doesn't have to beat his defender from so far out wide, playing more centrally will lead him to more instinctive shots on goals through the centre. I've also heard that he is a passers benefited by a possesion based system.
Onana seems like a goalkeeper amorim can use alongside all of our CB's that should benefit playing if we play 3 at the back. I have a slight feeling Maguire covered by De Ligt & Martinez may be great but Yoro is a talent and needs time.Mainoo should provide enough defensive cover alongside Ugarte & 3 CB's so I think the need for Casemiro is probably gone.Dalot should be able to play wingback well.If Amass is good as people Say he is then I can see him break through the next couple of months under amorim.
I think Mazrouai is much more likely to find a home in the back 3 than as a wing back, but he's definitely going to struggle.
I have no idea what to expect of Rashford/Garnacho playing more centrally. You'd expect Rashford to feel more comfortable there but I've always liked Garnacho when he comes inside and tries to link the play with central players.
I'm very curious if Amad can be used as the right wing back. Does he have the physicality for it? I agree he fits the profile of player that Amorim typically uses in this system, with the wing backs providing the pace/width to the attack. I think he's also a temporary solution at left wing back whilst we wait for Shaw.
He did under Frank de Boer, I will never forget the howler he had against the Czech Republic. Didnt he play in a back 3 while at Juve as well?
True but sad part is also how there's a case to be made their refusal was loosely linked to their eventual failures. One was my captain always plays and another was United must always play direct cos traditions and stuffWe’ll just have to wait and see, too many times I’ve seen people try and predict who the manager will and won’t like and it turns out the way people assume.
LVG was supposed to prefer RVP over Rooney, Bruno was supposed to be benched when ETH got appointed. There’s no point trying to guess
He generally played in a back 4 next to Bonucci from what I remember, and yes the Do Boer team was a complete disaster
He’s been one of the better ones because the likes of Dalot and Martinez have been atrocious. But he gets done on the turn quite a lot. He’s not the most agile. Kompany went into Bayern knowing full well he was gonna be pushing their defensive line up to basically the halfway line and De Ligt was deemed not suitable for such a system and sold. This despite Bayern not really having any great centre backs.
Dalot I agree with. Mazraoui I don't think is athletic enough to get up and down all match - and he seems more comfortable in central areas. Think he'd be better at RCB until Yoro gets fit personally.
I guess my point is that I think you are underestimating the extent to which the wingbacks are fundamental to how Amorim sets up a team. But hey, maybe he has plans to adjust to a back 4 - though I would be surprised as he's been pretty inflexible during his entire time in Portugal and has very deliberately shaped his squad accordingly.
Actually, they needed to sell to get players in, Kompany didn't say he is getting rid of him because of the high line. They have Kim who is worse than De Ligt.
De Ligt has also played in high lines for Ajax.
This is a tough one, but this is my take, based on what I have seen and read. Amorin is playing a 3-4-3 or actually it is more of a 3-4-2-1 with attack minded wingbacks and two attacking midfielders behind a striker, who makes deep runs in- and outside. The tactics are based on fast forward play and flooding certain areas with players. It is actually very similar to what the danish national team has been trying to do in the Nations League campaign, but Sporting has been at it since Amorin took over, and it looks fluent and effective.
Who will play?
Keeper: Onana is a given. As a ball playing sweeper/keeper, he will be the extra player in the build up in phase one. Perfect fit for the system.
The three at the back: Yoro on the right for tempo and physicality. De Light in the middle for build up, positional awareness and defending crosses. Martinez left. His passing ability is crucial in this sort of system, as he can pass both long and short. His grid is also asked for. Subs: Luke Shaw, should he ever get fit, could be a possibility left as well and Harry could be BU to De Light if we keep him. I see no place for Lindelof in the system. I would keep Evans as cover for another year. He has done really good since he has been back and knows his role in the team.
The Wingbacks: Amorin likes to play wingers here instead of fullbacks, which leaves Shaw out of the equation for me. Malacia is so far away right now that no one can truly know where he stands. A loan would probably do him good. Harry Amass ? - I think that Dalot and Mazraoui will fight it out for the right WB, and I see Mazraoui as the better fit. It is close though. On the left we have a problem. I actually think we will see Garnacho there, or maybe even Anthony. Amorin wants someone, who will seek to get forward as fast as possible and be able to run up and down the line for days. Right now these two are the best options for that, but we will need to be active on the market here. I´ll go with Mazraoui and Garnacho.
The Pivot 6/8: Amorin plays a ball winning 6, who stays center and plays short passes. In Lissabon it is Hjulmand, but Hjulmands predecessor was Ugarte. Ugarte is a perfect fit, so he will play. If Casemiro stays, he will be the first alternative. The 8 role could very well go to Mainoo. He is supposed to intercept the opponents play and pass between the lines. This task is made for a technical player with a good passing range. Eriksen is the better passer, but I think that Kobbie will play most games here.
The two attacking midfielders: Bruno, Mount, Rashford, Amad, Zirkzee, Eriksen. There are lots of possibilities here, but looking at Sporting this season, the obvious solution is playing our two best creators in behind the striker, and those are Bruno and Eriksen. Why? The Amorin system depends on a mobile and fast 9, running deep on the inside and outside, and this needs creators who can play a weighted through ball. Bruno and Eriksen are elite at that and both good finishers themselves. It is the exact role, that Eriksen plays for Denmark. Any of the other four can play here as well with Bruno or Eriksen.
Striker: Gyökeres and Rasmus are very similar players in style, so this is a given. The system provides Højlund with exact the kind of tasks that he loves, making fast runs, so there will be no excuses for not scoring. Zirkzee is no BU in this system, where I see Rashford as the second option.
My two cents.
Who will play?
Keeper: Onana is a given. As a ball playing sweeper/keeper, he will be the extra player in the build up in phase one. Perfect fit for the system.
The three at the back: Yoro on the right for tempo and physicality. De Light in the middle for build up, positional awareness and defending crosses. Martinez left. His passing ability is crucial in this sort of system, as he can pass both long and short. His grid is also asked for. Subs: Luke Shaw, should he ever get fit, could be a possibility left as well and Harry could be BU to De Light if we keep him. I see no place for Lindelof in the system. I would keep Evans as cover for another year. He has done really good since he has been back and knows his role in the team.
The Wingbacks: Amorin likes to play wingers here instead of fullbacks, which leaves Shaw out of the equation for me. Malacia is so far away right now that no one can truly know where he stands. A loan would probably do him good. Harry Amass ? - I think that Dalot and Mazraoui will fight it out for the right WB, and I see Mazraoui as the better fit. It is close though. On the left we have a problem. I actually think we will see Garnacho there, or maybe even Anthony. Amorin wants someone, who will seek to get forward as fast as possible and be able to run up and down the line for days. Right now these two are the best options for that, but we will need to be active on the market here. I´ll go with Mazraoui and Garnacho.
The Pivot 6/8: Amorin plays a ball winning 6, who stays center and plays short passes. In Lissabon it is Hjulmand, but Hjulmands predecessor was Ugarte. Ugarte is a perfect fit, so he will play. If Casemiro stays, he will be the first alternative. The 8 role could very well go to Mainoo. He is supposed to intercept the opponents play and pass between the lines. This task is made for a technical player with a good passing range. Eriksen is the better passer, but I think that Kobbie will play most games here.
The two attacking midfielders: Bruno, Mount, Rashford, Amad, Zirkzee, Eriksen. There are lots of possibilities here, but looking at Sporting this season, the obvious solution is playing our two best creators in behind the striker, and those are Bruno and Eriksen. Why? The Amorin system depends on a mobile and fast 9, running deep on the inside and outside, and this needs creators who can play a weighted through ball. Bruno and Eriksen are elite at that and both good finishers themselves. It is the exact role, that Eriksen plays for Denmark. Any of the other four can play here as well with Bruno or Eriksen.
Striker: Gyökeres and Rasmus are very similar players in style, so this is a given. The system provides Højlund with exact the kind of tasks that he loves, making fast runs, so there will be no excuses for not scoring. Zirkzee is no BU in this system, where I see Rashford as the second option.
My two cents.
I think you're underestimating other people's football knowledge. Everybody knows wingback are essential when playing 3 at the back. It's common knowledge.
What makes you think people don't know this but you do?
It’s pretty common for a new manager to need time to find the right players. Look at how many full backs Pep had to burn through in his first couple of years. Whether Mazraoui is capable or not, you can’t make your manager decision on that.
Yeah. I agree. And whilst I’m not anti Bruno, surely at some point in the last x years he’s been here we might have tried a run of games without him to solidify the midfield.
Still maintain it was bizarre for ETH, Ole not to even try a more solid 433. At least give it a chance. Obsessing about a 10, in the 4231 for multiple years was apparently career suicide
Assuming Amorim plays his typical system, I think he might excel
Sorry to go off topic here but I’m not sure where did this observation came from. He is a really poor defender. You don’t have to look far back, just check last Europa league game. Should be sold long time ago.
Personally I prefer De Ligt over Van Der Wen and Ake, but as I've said it's been well documented De Ligt isn't comfortable playing in a 3 man defence. That could be why they're ahead of him.
Hopefully he surprises us and plays well if 343 becomes the norm for us. I definitely rate the guy and view him as our best defender anyway
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I mean I live in Lisbon and have watched Sporting on a regular basis - I'd wager more than the vast majority of people contributing to this thread?
It feels somewhat premature to discuss what players might or might not be a good fit when the foundations upon which the team would be built just don't exist. Amorim is a tremendous coach and a huge upgrade over EtH for my money - but unless there are concrete plans in place to get him the specific types of players he needs quickly I'd be skeptical you'll improve dramatically in the short term (unless I'm dramatically underestimating how toxic EtH was making the place).
I wonder if Amass finally gets promoted. He might suit Amorims system
Ugarte. Bruno. Garnacho. Yoro & Martinez. Probably De Ligt too. Maz and Dalot should be fine in wingback roles. Both like to get forwards.
Rashford is going to hate running and pressing. Zirkzee and Hojlund will need to adjust. Evans, lindelof and Maguire are fecked.
Rashford is going to hate running and pressing. Zirkzee and Hojlund will need to adjust. Evans, lindelof and Maguire are fecked.
So basically alot of players will suit the system. The ones fecked, we need to get rid of them anyway.
I actually think Hojlund is going to be vital for us over Zirkzee because he does everything that Gyokeres does, runs the channels, combines with our CAMs and will make dangerous runs, add to that he can finish.
I actually feel that Zirkzee may not suit that ST position, Rashford might be 2nd choice as he can run channels too, which is how Amorim plays.
I'd quite like to see this.
I don’t think you have to live is Lisbon to know wingbacks are crucial when playing three at the back.
Have a look at the forum. There's widespread discussion about who can play the wingback role or who we need to buy to do it.
They sold DeLigt and signed Hiroki Ito…
That says it all really.
Kim might not be as good technically as de ligt and neither is Upemecano but they’re both quicker and agile and are more suited to the high line.
Playing in a high line for Ajax in the Dutch league is very different to doing so in the Premier league.
He does like wingers as wing backs so I could see this being an option in some games.
Actually, they wanted Tah to replace De Ligt... not Hiroki.
Yeah they are very well suited to the high line, its going really well for them defensively, getting exposed left right centre.
Playing a high line in the CL for Ajax is the same as playing for Bayern in a high line.
My understanding is that he struggles when playing as one of the wider centrebacks. Playing as the central defender should suit his strengths a lot more, but VDV has that spot on lock for Holland so until he retires or declines significantly De Ligt has had to make do with being played wider.
However long term I suspect we wouldn't be able to play both De Ligt and Martinez at the same time due to their lack of speed. One of them will probably be fine, but one of them will end up dropped for a faster defender. If Shaw could actually stay fit I suspect he might have been ahead of Martinez right from the start.
I don't really think Garnacho suits the more centralized positioning that Amorim asks for from his forward players so hopefully he can adapt to WB.
Actually this is a very good point. I guess people are looking longer-term at those three defenders, but right now Evans might be the best option. Perhaps he and De Ligt will rotate at first, and hopefully De Ligt will show he can do that role well.
This
Ho does Evans fare in 3 at the back system?
Well there is a brochure that you get when you move here...
But point taken - I wasn't trying to be condescending or anything and can only apologise if I came across that way.
Great fits:
On first glance, it feels like a squad that doesn't need major open heart surgery to adapt to this tactic. But we don't know how well such a style will work in the Prem, or how well certain players will buy into it. It's going to be fascinating to see how he implements it and how long it takes before we see if it's going to work or not.
- Martinez and Yoro as the wider, ball playing defenders. Both should flourish in that sort of system where they can push up into midfield with the ball, or build moves with incisive passes.
- Ugarte and Mainoo as the central midfield pairing - Ugarte as the destroyer in a role he has perviously excelled in and Mainoo as the box to box, ball carrying 8 who can push forward into a more attacking midfield role when appropriate.
- Onana as the sweeper keeper behind a high line, closer to the role he did well in for Inter. There may be a handful of rash errors but the benefits should outweigh those.
- De Ligt as the slower but bigger central defender holding position at the back. He should be well suited to the role Coates performed at Sporting, with the pace of his two wider partners getting him out of trouble when needed. His passing is decent as well.
- Hojlund in the Gyokeres role. On paper this should suit him far better than the role Ten Hag has used him in. Running into the channels for long balls from deep, or playing off the shoulder and being fed via two more central attacking midfielders should see him getting plenty of chances to get on the ball in space.
On first glance, it feels like a squad that doesn't need major open heart surgery to adapt to this tactic. But we don't know how well such a style will work in the Prem, or how well certain players will buy into it. It's going to be fascinating to see how he implements it and how long it takes before we see if it's going to work or not.