I think the fact that we are earnestly looking for players already suggests for sure he will be here next season. We don't have a football director structure and so the manager dictates who we go for. If we were going to sack him, we would hold off any move for any players.
What will it take to sack moyes?
- Thread starter bosnian_red
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Go and look at how much Klopp's spent since he's been at Dortmund. Most of their best players were dirt cheap.
Damn that really is a moronic post. I mean ignoring the fact that you are labeling some top managers who have actually managed on a budget as flavour of the month, you also suddenly deduced that Everton were top 4 regulars as well under Moyes.
Amazing how great a job Moyes did at everton now in retrospect for some, how did they manage to actually keep hold of him for 11 years must have had top teams battering the door down trying to steal him away.
Klopp and Mourinho are flavours of the month?
So I haven't come out of that very well. My post was part of a series but I can see how it reads. Mourinho, Klopp and Simeone are clearly top managers, and are among the main names that have been/ are being bandied about as our next manager. The flavour of the month thing I added to include whatever bright young thing pops his head over the managerial parapet minutes before being touted as Moyes successor.
Klopp's done a great job without spending big but Dortmund have won the European Cup in their recent past and have pedigree.
I certainly never suggested Everton were top 4 regulars, on the contrary, I said even a top manager is unlikely to have converted them to such on their current budget.
I appear to make no sense in here. It's like a parallel universe.
Hypothetically I actually think we could lose every game from now until the end of the season and he wouldn't be sacked. I think we just need to accept that and hope the resurgence we have seen recently (apart from the Bayern loss) continues.
I think if we are still comfortably outside the top 4 by Christmas he will go.
I think if we are still comfortably outside the top 4 by Christmas he will go.
All that talk about him modernizing the club and the work behind the scenes is baffling to me. How did we manage to stay on top for so long? The lazy answer is SAF and while he is the greatest manager of all time, it is hard to believe that we were that out of touch with the modern game and somehow managed to stay at that level.
They make it sound like we were relying on abacuses and hourglasses before Moyes came in.
They make it sound like we were relying on abacuses and hourglasses before Moyes came in.
He's still here now and therefore he is staying.
If he was going to go at any time it was when our season was over, after the Bayern match. That would give us time to approach and hire a new manager and give him time to work with the team for a few matches and get his plans together for the summer.
There's no way we'd start someone in the same position as Moyes again last summer, with no time to work with the squad before he gets a transfer window.
Whats comfortably outside the top 4 though?
If we are sitting 7-8 points off at Xmas that could be argued to be easily made up. We were that far off this season and he didn't get sacked.
If he survives the chop at the end of this season i doubt hes getting sacked halfway through next, especially after backing him in the transfer market.
Although i agree the last 5 games won't affect his future one way or the other, they will have already made their mind up about that.
Why would a strong finish placate any sensible fan? Meaningless games against nothing teams who have nothing to play for (excluding Everton). A handful of wins at this stage is like sticking a plaster over a gunshot wound.
Christ, I am so sick of Moyes, his pathetic attitude (sulking in the dugout last night like a child) and the lowering of our expectations under him.
We are so fecked as long as he's with us.
Isn't that basically what most other clubs do and they do just fine? The problem Moyes had last summer was him waffling about doing seemingly no work and then dithering. Mourinho was appointed later than him as well as Martinez and they assessed the squads they had just fine. Don't allow Moyes' incompetence to lessen your view of how quickly managers can get a handle on things.
And you know what is more scary? We make it to 6th and retain an Europa spot, and Moyes considers it a job well done for his new venture. He will continue to be given money to "improve" the team so as to try to elevate to top 4 (improve by 2 spots next season). That's a lot of achievement as far as he's concerned.
Sorry, I probably should have just said that i think he will be sacked if we are in a similar position next Christmas to what we were last ie no real chance of winning the title and very remote chance of champions league qualification.
After 6 months you can argue he needs time, patience and an opportunity to make the team 'his', but if after 18 months to implement his changes there is no improvement I think even the most patient fans will be disgruntled.
He was so great there, that even Everton fans are singing his name, and want him back. After 10 years in charge, he left Everton with playing style that is the envy of every top clubs, that any new manager coming in would struggle to improve it. Even his old players only have good things to say about his fabulous training regime and tactical approach.
Or not.
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I was quite clearly referring to people like you picking on every word Moyes says and inventing another reason to have a go at him. Then again, I suppose any reason at all will do.
He left them with a squad of a quality that Martinez only had to add two or three loan signings to it. Don't try to change history.
We took the lead in both legs. We should have been going through and didn't! Bayern certainly were not impressive and I'd fancy Chelsea to beat them.
And Uniteds squad was?
I don't think it's as clear cut a "he won't" as many people think it is.
Thank God we at least have a strong social media presence now where fans can write comments such as "the biggest mistake was hiring him" to counter the loyal match going fans' support a bit.
I would say unlikely. Absolutely no idea whether this is actually the case or not, we can only go from Moyes' comments. The CEO and others have been mostly silent, which may or may not mean anything.
But when you listen to Moyes, there's no sense of him thinking that he's going to go this summer. Often you get those quotes from managers along the lines of "we'll sit down at the end of the season", "you'll have to ask the Board", "I still think I'll be here next season", which actually means they have no idea.
All of the quotes suggest that he believes he'll be here next year. So either he has an excellent poker face (he hasn't) or he has no reason to believe his job is under threat.
Of course just because he doesn't think he'll go doesn't mean he won't.
If this is the "most decisive period" of Moyes' reign then something has gone very wrong. Surely the most decisive period should have been when we were actually playing for something. What's the point in making a hugely important decision on the basis of games that are essentially devoid of any meaning whatsoever? If the decision hasnt been made one way or the other at this point that's a problem, for me. Not that they should necessarily act now, but I dont think anything we see from here on in, good or bad, should be given equal weighting with what we have seen before. If they sack him it should be because this season hasnt been good enough. If they keep him it should be because they believe next season will be better. Basing anything on a handful of dead rubbers is a recipe for disaster.
Do you really not see the irony here? You managed to indignantly accuse people of generalizing any support for Moyes as "fecking love the bloke and think he farts rainbows", while at the same time generalizing the opposition to him as "Moyes is the worst thing since death". You are quite literally doing what you accuse other people of doing, in the same sentence.
So we hired a manager to modernize scouting and analytics? Could the head scout not have been changed instead?
Since when did the manager's job mandate become "modernisation"?
This is idiotic at worst, lazy journalism at best am afraid
Not necessarily so. After Fergie's arrival and for a few seasons thereafter, results were indifferent to say the least and there was a lot of talk at the time that he would be fired. All this is well documented of course and whilst there is little comparison with then and now, what sustained Fergie in the eyes of Edwards and co was what he was dong behind the scenes particularly as regards youth development and other structures which had been allowed to deteriorate under previous managers. In other words it was seen that the work he was clearly doing would, most likely, eventually lead to success. So perhaps in that regard there could be a similarity. However, that's where the comparison ends. As we all know, Fergie was a big and charismatic personality and above all a proven winner. Sadly Moyes is neither of those
Yes because 30 years back we did not have a dedicated sports scientists, psychologists, a battery of scouts, and n number of other dedicated roles. The manager had more responsibilites back then
This article seems to suggest Moyes has a responsibility to modernize all these areas. Well he should not. There are specific people hired for all these positions already. If modernization or revamp is required (which is debatable but not going there) then it is not the job of the manager to be hands-on doing that. He is not expected to do analytics, or scout every player for example - people are being paid to do that
A CEO does not create progress reports, s/he views them and acts on them. If s/he were creating reports instead of the project management office, then who would do the CEO's job?
Poor Moyes, not only did we leave him a poor title-winning squad, but we also left him a very poorly structured club with a bunch of unqualified people running it and outdated facilities. He's the genius assigned to rebuild it all by himself and make us rise from the ashes.
Or not.
You are right he shouldn't have to. However at United the team manager has always been responsible for the club's entire playing structures from top to bottom - including the appointment of coaches, scouts, physios etc. Its a huge job and some have suggested United need to interpose a GM to handle these things as other clubs have done so that the team manager can concentrate at being just that. Fergie was excellent at organising behind the scenes and took a hands on approach to all these matters. It is surprising therefore, and this is a point you make, that much needs doing now in terms of re-structuring. Certainly not on the scale needed when Fegrie first came. Ok Martin Ferguson left as scout, so others had to be appointed and Moyes decided to bring in his own people as coaches which, in my humble opinion, was both unwise and unnecessary. The bottom line is that it's not really a comparison or an argument. All the same it might be helping to preserve Moyes in his position right now. At least he's doing something, might be the skewed thinking. The quicker we're shot of this charade the better.
I know you may not have meant that, but the way you put it, it seems as if Fergie left us in a bad state which would require Moyes to do behind the scenes work on the scale of what Fergie needed to. I am sure that is not the case. Fergie himself said that he has left the club in as good a health as possible and I am sure he also meant the infra he had left behind to be utilized by Moyes.
All these behind the work talk is simply a way to give leeway to Moyes after a horrible season. If it continues next season, I am sure the Glazers won't tolerate it. Even then these excuses could be touted since it also took Fergie years to set things right. But they won't 'cause the Glazers won't need these silly reasons then to back Moyes.
@Julian Denny agreed and we are more or less saying the same thing - there is no way the club's foundations could have been antiquated and needing an overhaul
Carrington is one of the best, if not the best, in England. Scouting is top class (though not the best in the world compared to, say, Porto)
The modernising thing is a daft excuse nothing more
Carrington is one of the best, if not the best, in England. Scouting is top class (though not the best in the world compared to, say, Porto)
The modernising thing is a daft excuse nothing more
No I didn't mean that. Fergie overhauled the entire club during the period prior to 1990 when results on the pitch weren't forthcoming. Those critics who wanted him fired were only going by what they saw in front of them and were naturally oblivious to what was going on behind the scenes. The board of course knew that and they also knew that given time (yes that phrase which is in constant use now) Fergie would produce the goods. I only mention it because this is what might be sustaining Moyes right now - ie the so-called "behind the scenes" work that he is supposed to be doing. In reality whatever he is doing is nowhere near what confronted Fergie whom I believe totally when he said he was leaving behind a club which was generally in good shape - despite some debate about the overall strength of the first team squad.
Yeah, we only see the tip of the iceberg.
That said, its not immediately obvious what Fergie could have left in such a state that an old skooler like Moyes could a) put right and b) is such a big thing that it should keep him in a job.
All this talk of Moyes modernizing the club behind the scenes may or may not be true, to be honest i doubt the club needed modernizing.
But it does pose the question did he modernize everton in the 11 years he was there, are everton an ultra modern club behind the scenes does anyone know?
Of course someone will probably say he didn't have the resources at everton to make them modern.
But it does pose the question did he modernize everton in the 11 years he was there, are everton an ultra modern club behind the scenes does anyone know?
Of course someone will probably say he didn't have the resources at everton to make them modern.
He will stay..But and it is a big but will the owners trust him with £120 million plus ? Would you?
Fellaini never worth the money we paid for him, he wanted to spend silly money on a 29 year old left back, and although Mata is a great player and will be a good buy, he wasn't what we needed in January somewhat a panic buy.
Fellaini never worth the money we paid for him, he wanted to spend silly money on a 29 year old left back, and although Mata is a great player and will be a good buy, he wasn't what we needed in January somewhat a panic buy.
Arguably the best player in the league for the last two seasons and one of the best #10's in the world was a panic buy?
In the short term I really think so, it is proven by where we have been playing him until Moyes hand was forced and he played in his best roll.
I am more than pleased we got him as he is as previously said a great player, but it doesn't detract from the facts..
Its a weird one. I wouldn't say panic buy, as such. But it looked case of buying a player because he's available, rather than buying him because was needed.
I hope that Moyes does have a plan to reconstruct the team and that Mata will be a vital cog. Perhaps, like Pele's pass to Carlos Alberto in 1970, it was so ahead of the game that it seems weird to everyone when it first happened. But when we all catch up with what he was really doing, it'll seem marvelously prescient.
Or something.
Hopefully and something :-)
I think Mata was more a case of opportunity rather than anything else. Think about it...
1. Mourinho came back, didn't play him
2. United had money to spend and a manager willing to spend
3. World cup year, Mata wanted playing time
4. United weren't in the title race, no direct threat to Chelsea
5. United played Chelsea, allowing talks to take place
6. A desire at United to show intent to fans cheesed off with no signings and none on the horizon in January
And if the opportunity was presented how many of you would say no?
As to would I give Moyes the money? Hmm. I'm actually not as convinced as some that he's integral to the business. I would suspect a triumvirate of Gill, Ferguson and Woodward to have been the main driving forces. Moyes may know the sort of player he wants, but Stevie Wonder could have a good stab at it at the moment.
1. Mourinho came back, didn't play him
2. United had money to spend and a manager willing to spend
3. World cup year, Mata wanted playing time
4. United weren't in the title race, no direct threat to Chelsea
5. United played Chelsea, allowing talks to take place
6. A desire at United to show intent to fans cheesed off with no signings and none on the horizon in January
And if the opportunity was presented how many of you would say no?
As to would I give Moyes the money? Hmm. I'm actually not as convinced as some that he's integral to the business. I would suspect a triumvirate of Gill, Ferguson and Woodward to have been the main driving forces. Moyes may know the sort of player he wants, but Stevie Wonder could have a good stab at it at the moment.
Why hasn't this no-mark been sacked yet?
Do you think Dalglish should take credit with Liverpool recent success? Rodgers also only add several signings.