What will it take to sack moyes?

Sandikan said:
It won't, but it'd be mental to splash big cash on players without having a new manager in place. What if he didn't fancy the player?!
Unless you think a new manager is already in place and already quoting who he wants?

And any new manager means we'll piss about in the summer again, as we'll spend time getting the right man in.

No chance he's going this summer. Why wait? It'd be ridiculous if we're waiting until 7th May out of principle?!
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Well which deals are there rumours we have tied up Carvalho and Shaw? can't see any manager not liking those two and im sure a new manager would be able to add more players to those two potential deals anyway.

And thats assuming these stories are even true which we don't know, last year there was strong rumours we had Thiago all but tied up look how that went.

Last year we pissed about because Moyes and Woodward didn't start looking until july 1st, all the players moyes would have been scouting were for everton can't see many being the level united required. If we appoint a top manager he will have his own scouting contacts and have been keeping an eye on players of the level we would hope to bring in.

Not many top managers would piss about for 2 months agonizing over targets only to sign one player from their former club in the last few minutes of deadline day.
 
Reducation said:
I've read/heard a lot of comments on DM that were simply baseless rubbish. Comments on his personality, attitude etc from people who do not know him.

The players seem to have a psychological problem with home games. To presume that this is DM's fault is overly simplistic.

It could well be argued that this season's on-pitch problems could be due to Fergie's departure per se, regardless of his replacement.
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Regardless of his replacement? You think we could have appointed Guardiola as manager and he would have had the same results on pitch as if Chris Hughton had taken the job? If we had replaced Sir Alex with a winner and a respected manager, we wouldn't be in this situation in the first place. What we have seen this year is what happens when you hire a proven loser who hasn't won anything in his life to manage the a squad of arguably the biggest winners in the world. When we lost Sir Alex we should have replaced adequately and not with a defeatist who reeks of mediocrity having done absolutely nothing in his time at Everton.
 
To be honest I do not know Moyes one bit. But at my work, if somebody asks me a question I am not totally sure about or am not confident I can provide a resolution or an answer correctly straight away, I give such vague replies myself. Do it primarily to give myself some room for wriggling in case it does not work out.

"Yes, get that changed. It should fix the problem, hopefully!"

Seeing and reading his comments really makes me feel he is not confident in his abilities to turn it around. And if that is even remotely the case, it could get worse still.
 
SteveJ said:
Plus, he recently said that he wants to move on to a bigger club, to improve himself & try a new experience.
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I had not read the posts above yours and thought for a minute that you were talking about Moyes. The first thought that came to mind was that he has finally lost it and that should be grounds enough to sack him :wenger:
 
Still ill said:
I'm surprised at you. I'm a long way from certain that he's the right man for the job but your bracketed comments are fairly petty. We've been thumped by City and Liverpool and of course that's unacceptable but we've played some decent football against Villa, Newcastle, West Ham and Olympiacos, shown signs of an actual plan and ran the best team in the world close in the CL quarter-finals. I'd expect a bit more balance from you.
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Not really. We've only shown signs of good play when we somehow managed to get the lead. At 0-0 the game was always boring, and we didn't play that well, until we somehow nicked a goal, either through an Evra penalty, or a RVP penalty, or a wonder strike from the halfway line by Rooney, or a great freekick by Mata...

I will give us credit for coming back from 1-0 down against Villa, although our play was far from inspiring, and that game could have easily gone either way.

I'm not taking anything away from the results we got. We have improved our results to some degree in the last couple of weeks (which is pretty similar to last December), but to say that we have improved our play, is off the mark imo.. Also, it's not like we've beaten any good sides really. Even Newcastle are in a free fall at the moment, and lost 4-0 and 3-0 by Southampton and Everton in their last two games.

Remember, in December we won 6 games in a row, but they were all also against much lesser teams.. We all know what happened next.

So let's not get too enthusiastic about a couple of positive results, and claim that we have played great football against good opponents in the last few weeks, or call it a real progress.
 
Do people on here have a genuine interest in how things go for the rest of the season? How we set up? Who we select? Or will any positive result be rubbished or fashioned into an implement to club Moysey over the head with? Is there no willingness to admit the faint possibility that he's learning and is prepared to change?

I see similarities with the Irish situation under Trap, albeit from a slightly different perspective. We endured God-awful football for years until the nation could take no more. But even after 4 years of watching utter tripe at the Aviva, I felt a willingness on Traps part to adapt, to give his younger players their head a bit, to loosen his rigid tactics would have brought patience from the crowd. The bloodthirsty baying of the hounds on here admits no room for manoeuvre for Moyes, nor even discussion now of what evidence they see on the pitch in front of them. Not everyone, but you know, a sizeable quota of those in the football forum.
 
Danny1982 said:
Not really. We've only shown signs of good play when we somehow managed to get the lead. At 0-0 the game was always boring, and we didn't play that well, until we somehow nicked a goal, either through an Evra penalty, or a RVP penalty, or a wonder strike from the halfway line by Rooney, or a great freekick by Mata...

I will give us credit for coming back from 1-0 down against Villa, although our play was far from inspiring, and that game could have easily gone either way.

I'm not taking anything away from the results we got. We have improved our results to some degree in the last couple of weeks (which is pretty similar to last December), but to say that we have improved our play, is off the mark imo.. Also, it's not like we've beaten any good sides really. Even Newcastle are in a free fall at the moment, and lost 4-0 and 3-0 by Southampton and Everton in their last two games.

Remember, in December we won 6 games in a row, but they were all also against much lesser teams.. We all know what happened next.

So let's not get too enthusiastic about a couple of positive results, and claim that we have played great football against good opponents in the last few weeks, or call it a real progress.
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It's amazing how desperate people are to clutch at any straw. We thrashed a Newcastle side in free fall and beat Villa at Old Trafford with a scoreline that flattered us. All this shows is that we can beat poor teams when there is no longer any pressure as we are out of the top 4 race. Plus we avoided humiliation against Bayern but lost by 4-2 on aggregate without any real element of bad luck. Twelve months ago we had basically wrapped up the title....if only Moyes could manage a football team as well as he manages expectations...
 
Still ill said:
Do people on here have a genuine interest in how things go for the rest of the season? How we set up? Who we select? Or will any positive result be rubbished or fashioned into an implement to club Moysey over the head with? Is there no willingness to admit the faint possibility that he's learning and is prepared to change?

I see similarities with the Irish situation under Trap, albeit from a slightly different perspective. We endured God-awful football for years until the nation could take no more. But even after 4 years of watching utter tripe at the Aviva, I felt a willingness on Traps part to adapt, to give his younger players their head a bit, to loosen his rigid tactics would have brought patience from the crowd. The bloodthirsty baying of the hounds on here admits no room for manoeuvre for Moyes, nor even discussion now of what evidence they see on the pitch in front of them. Not everyone, but you know, a sizeable quota of those in the football forum.
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That would be too nuanced a point of view for many in this thread. You either have to be "MOYES IS THE WORST THING SINCE feckING DEATH AND HE WILL NEVER CHAAAAAAAANGE" or you fecking love the bloke and think he farts rainbows. Get with the programme mate.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Pexbo's one of many formerly sensible posters who've let this godforsaken season drive them into a constant state of pseudo-hysteria.

I reckon a psychologist could write that shit up: "a case study of mass hysteria amongst manchester united fans in the post-Ferguson era"
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It doesn't put you in a better light if you try to play the psychologist, and call everybody else a nut suffering from hysteria, especially when you do it repeatedly. Try to learn how to accept people's opinions. Failing to see some real progress in the last month or so for us shouldn't automatically merit help by a psychologist..

And remember, even the crazy thinks he's sane.
 
Danny1982 said:
It doesn't put you in a better light if you try to play the psychologist, and call everybody else a nut suffering from hysteria, especially when you do it repeatedly. Try to learn how to accept people's opinions. Failing to see some real progress in the last month or so for us shouldn't automatically merit help by a psychologist..

And remember, even the crazy thinks he's sane.
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Don't take it personally. I'm not lumping you in with @Pexbo. I did say "formerly sensible" after all :D
 
Reducation said:
I've read/heard a lot of comments on DM that were simply baseless rubbish. Comments on his personality, attitude etc from people who do not know him.

The players seem to have a psychological problem with home games. To presume that this is DM's fault is overly simplistic.

It could well be argued that this season's on-pitch problems could be due to Fergie's departure per se, regardless of his replacement.
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It would be naive to think this isn't a factor. From reading and hearing many accounts, Fergie was more than a manager to many of these players.
 
Gannicus said:
Let's try to be sober about this for a moment.

Surely no one the caf denies that Moyes was not the best available manager for the job.

Surely no one on the caf denies that Moyes has had serious difficulties with numerous aspects of the job, whether in the transfer market, earning the respect of his players, match day tactics and how he projects himself in public.

Surely no one here denies there are several, perhaps more than several, better managers available this summer.

In short, knowing what we know now, there would be no case whatsoever for hiring Moyes in June 2013.

The issue before us is whether Moyes has learned enough from his mistakes this season to perform at the level required of a proper United manager next season and thus rightly be spared the sack.

I see no evidence that he has, but I'm open to seeing the evidence Moyes's defenders may wish to present us.
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This is rational, and I don't think there's much to disagree with there at all.
 
But @Stlll Ill, expecting some meaningful change from a 50 year old who we have been watching at Everton for 10 years even before this awful season...surely you know what you get by now with Moyes. Expecting him to adopt a new style at this stage would be like buying a Status Quo record and being disappointed by the absence of innovative chord structures. Moyes is what he is - a decent premier league manager but not top tier.
 
MoskvaRed said:
But @Stlll Ill, expecting some meaningful change from a 50 year old who we have been watching at Everton for 10 years even before this awful season...surely you know what you get by now with Moyes. Expecting him to adopt a new style at this stage would be like buying a Status Quo record and being disappointed by the absence of innovative chord structures. Moyes is what he is - a decent premier league manager but not top tier.
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You don't even know what actually defines the difference between the two.
 
Shamwow said:
You don't even know what actually defines the difference between the two.
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Finishing 6th/7th with the defending champions more or less eliminates you from the latter category, I'd have thought.
 
MoskvaRed said:
But @Stlll Ill, expecting some meaningful change from a 50 year old who we have been watching at Everton for 10 years even before this awful season...surely you know what you get by now with Moyes. Expecting him to adopt a new style at this stage would be like buying a Status Quo record and being disappointed by the absence of innovative chord structures. Moyes is what he is - a decent premier league manager but not top tier.
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Leaving aside your casual dismissal of his achievements at Everton over the last decade (have we decided now that Everton have only started to play football since Roberto showed up?), the resources at his disposal both in monetary terms and as regards playing staff are completely different now. He's bumbled along in fairly inept fashion thusfar but like I say, I'm willing at least to admit the possibility that he's starting to see a way forward.
 
Shamwow said:
You don't even know what actually defines the difference between the two.
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Not sure what you mean..."top tier" implies a proven track record of success with the likelihood of winning more, "decent" means keeping a team safely in mid-table (Allardyce etc). There is a third category of up and coming (Rodgers, Martínez) who may become elite managers or who may fall short but you can't put a 50 year old in that category who has spent the last 5 years treading water at what is traditionally a fairly big club.
 
Gannicus said:
Let's try to be sober about this for a moment.

Surely no one the caf denies that Moyes was not the best available manager for the job.

Surely no one on the caf denies that Moyes has had serious difficulties with numerous aspects of the job, whether in the transfer market, earning the respect of his players, match day tactics and how he projects himself in public.

Surely no one here denies there are several, perhaps more than several, better managers available this summer.

In short, knowing what we know now, there would be no case whatsoever for hiring Moyes in June 2013.

The issue before us is whether Moyes has learned enough from his mistakes this season to perform at the level required of a proper United manager next season and thus rightly be spared the sack.

I see no evidence that he has, but I'm open to seeing the evidence Moyes's defenders may wish to present us.
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You are not being sober, you are being biased to try and say he isn't good enough and that has been proved by the teams performance. If you had just said that latter bit, I think most would now agree. Personally, I will support him as he is the manager, but I am now, and only now, questioning whether he is the right man. However, having seen the performance improvements in a number of players recently, I am questioning them and their attitude as well.

Anyway based on your list:

There were better managers about even when we got the Doc, Sexton, Atkinson and even Fergie. There are always many good managers about and no one really knew that Moyes would struggle. I am still glad we didn't get Mourhino, and Moyes was not even in my top 10.

Where is this evidence that the players don't respect him. People say this all the time, but I think it is just Moyes haters spreading their hate.

Many names mentioned as potential new managers have also failed in many aspects for their clubs. We have a luv in on the caf with Dortmund, so Klopp all of a sudden is god. Nothing says he will succeed here or even outside Dortmund, same goes AM's manager. Many a good manager has failed at a big club.

The only point that is probably common among people on the CAF is that Moyes has made some dreadful mistakes during the games, e.g. not taking off Rooney yesterday. Now go back a number of years when United last played Bayern. 3-0 up and cruising, even though we are carrying Rooney who has injured his foot again. Does Fergie take him off no. Rafael has a brain fart we go down to 10 and one of them we are carrying and we end up losing. Atkinson did it many times with Brian Robson, many managers let their heart rather than their head do the thinking. However, I do think Moyes has not really thought out his decisions.

I think, not hope, that Moyes will go at the end of the season. With the investment needed and the fact that a number of our more recent investments Kagawa, Hernandez, Zaha have spent so much time off the park, I don't believe they will support him with a large transfer budget.
 
Still ill said:
Leaving aside your casual dismissal of his achievements at Everton over the last decade (have we decided now that Everton have only started to play football since Roberto showed up?), the resources at his disposal both in monetary terms and as regards playing staff are completely different now. He's bumbled along in fairly inept fashion thusfar but like I say, I'm willing at least to admit the possibility that he's starting to see a way forward.
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Possibly but it would be an almost unprecedented example of a manager moving up several gears at that age. As for Everton, he did a great job of turning them from relegation candidates into a solid team finishing in 6-8th place. But that was achieved 5-6 years ago and he could not take them any further. As for playing football, they were not exactly easy on the eye.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Don't take it personally. I'm not lumping you in with @Pexbo. I did say "formerly sensible" after all :D
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Pogue Mahone said:
Don't take it personally. I'm not lumping you in with @Pexbo. I did say "formerly sensible" after all :D
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It wasn't really a personal shot at you, although I was a bit annoyed because I do think you're among the more calm and sensible people here, so was disappointed to see that coming from you.

No hard feelings. :D
 
MoskvaRed said:
Possibly but it would be an almost unprecedented example of a manager moving up several gears at that age. As for Everton, he did a great job of turning them from relegation candidates into a solid team finishing in 6-8th place. But that was achieved 5-6 years ago and he could not take them any further. As for playing football, they were not exactly easy on the eye.
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He doesn't have to reinvent himself, does he? A bit of tinkering with his system hardly constitutes a reinvention. And as for taking them any further, the factors preventing them moving on were nothing to do with Moyes. I doubt Klopp or Mourinho or Simeone or whoever the flavour of the month is would have bumped Everton up to top 4 regulars on that budget.
 
MoskvaRed said:
Not sure what you mean..."top tier" implies a proven track record of success with the likelihood of winning more, "decent" means keeping a team safely in mid-table (Allardyce etc). There is a third category of up and coming (Rodgers, Martínez) who may become elite managers or who may fall short but you can't put a 50 year old in that category who has spent the last 5 years treading water at what is traditionally a fairly big club.
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Thought you were talking more about his qualities as a manager. Can't really argue with what you said about the first 2 categories. The third I think you have defined in an arbitrary way but we aren't going to convince each other otherwise. Let's not forget though that people who know more about football, Moyes and Manchester United than either of us placed him in the 3rd or he wouldn't have gotten the job.
 
Question: Regardless of desire, how many actually think Moyes will be fired before the start of next season?
 
I thought two inept performances against Bayern (Olympiakos away bad) along with continued shite form at OT would see him gone before the end of the season.

Recent results means I think he's got a very good chance of being here through the summer, barring a really absymal finish to our league campaign. Can't rule out that happening, though. Some tough fixtures coming up.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I thought two inept performances against Bayern (Olympiakos away bad) along with continued shite form at OT would see him gone before the end of the season.

Recent results means I think he's got a very good chance of being here through the summer, barring a really absymal finish to our league campaign. Can't rule out that happening, though. Some tough fixtures coming up.
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That 3-0 win against Olympiacos might have been the game that saved him. Although even then I wouldn't expect him to be sacked, but I'd at least give it a chance.

Now, I don't think there is a chance he's going.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I thought two inept performances against Bayern (Olympiakos away bad) along with continued shite form at OT would see him gone before the end of the season.

Recent results means I think he's got a very good chance of being here through the summer, barring a really absymal finish to our league campaign. Can't rule out that happening, though. Some tough fixtures coming up.
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What tough fixtures do we have coming up? Aside from the Everton game, we have three home games against relegation threatened sides and a dead rubber away on the last day of the season against Southampton. For me, we had our run very tough fixtures in that run of Arsenal, Liverpool and City when 4th place was still a possibility.

I can see United winning all five of our final games if we can overcome Everton, although some players might be holding back with a World Cup coming up and a summer departure likely or confirmed.

I don't think these results should factor into an assessment of Moyes as much as earlier in the season when we had something to play for and the pressure was on.

I think it is a certainty he is going to be United's manager at the start of next season but a good run in these last five games with little or nothing to play for would not be filling me with hope for next season. It does not tell us much about the team when the pressure is not on.
 
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