We don't have the players to play Moyes-ball. Do we really want to buy near an entire team just for David Moyes?
What will it take to sack moyes?
- Thread starter bosnian_red
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I speculate that privately Moyes himself is as shocked as many fans are about how this season has gone. I don't think he thought it would be easy, and he has admitted it has been tougher than he thought. But I think what has probably shocked him is how awful many of these championship winning players have been this season. I think he probably thought that he was dealing with a higher standard than has actually materialised.
True and we know that Moyes is to blame, but players haven't come out of this smelling as roses. It's hard for us fans to speculate and apportion the right amount of blame to the guilty as well
Thats true, you have to wonder if he's simply lost the players belief, he's not a bad manager, nobody is this bad, it's the simple fact the squad may want to play for him but just find themselves unable as we've seen the last few weeks,
saying that, when you see tactics ala what we adopted for the fulham 2-2 draw it's not hard to see why we're failing, sadly his methods from what we can see seem incompatible for a top side expected to win each week and entertain.
Even his own purchases, Fellaini and Mata have let him down badly in the last 2 big PL games, looking as bad if not worse than alot of "Fergies men" I don't think spending 100million more in the summer will somehow rectify our current state by itself.
I don't think he appreciated how the squad was built to specific purposes, certain strengths that, if emphasized, made us a club who could win the league and compete with anyone in the world.
Take those same players and try to get them to play hoofball...well, are we really all that surprised that we can't control the midfield with this squad?
Maybe it's not the players being awful, but Moyes. They don't want to play for him so how can they be judged on this season?
This!
Giving him a couple of seasons is fine, if he's doing at worst, "ok", not if he's doing fecking atrociously. You earn more time in this game, you don't get it for free.
Everything else comes back to Everton so I wouldn't be surprised.
Ah, my bad. Was meant to say title winning level or at least performing in a consistent way.
It should be the other way round, shouldn't it? The players must be looking at Moyes thinking what talent does this guy possess that fergie hand picked him to lead us into the future. The challenge is at Moyes's doorstep not the players. Moyes needs to prove himself to the players to get the best out of them, he cannot claim higher power just because he has been ordained by fergie himself. Sooner or later it will become clear to everyone around him that this guy is just not good enough. Maybe he should just walk in like Clough when he was in charge of Leeds. Chuck all your medals because blah blah blah..
Superlative post.
Perhaps true. But its worth pointing out he's had two transfer windows to put things right.
Granted we had a bunch of title winners, but since Moyes (presumably) watched all our games in the month he had before starting on 1st July he must have been able to see the weaknesses in the squad, especially in midfield and the age of the defenders. It breaks my heart to think about how he let Thiago go to Bayern, simply because he hadn't scouted him personally and therefore wasn't convinced of his quality. Man, we've suffered for that.
Louis van Gaal would be the perfect manager for United's difficult transition period, simply because he's gut giant balls of steel and doesn't shy away from difficult, but ultimately necessary decisions. He took over Bayern after the Klinsmann catastrophe, weeded out unnecessary players, blooded some youngsters nobody had on their radar, played guys in positions they had never been considered for and it turned out he was bang right about pretty much everything. Without him, Müller, Badstuber (the poor sod), Schweinsteiger and Alaba wouldn't be what they are today, neither would be the team as a whole.
Van Gaal is a difficult character and it just didn't work out anymore after 2 seasons, but Bayern are what they are today because of the work he did. His understanding of football and a player's true qualities are second to none. He wouldn't try to fill the hole SAF left, but instead plant new seeds that his successor(s) could work with. My guts tell me that even if he had to leave after 2 seasons for being a stubborn mule, United would be well prepared for the future.
Van Gaal is a difficult character and it just didn't work out anymore after 2 seasons, but Bayern are what they are today because of the work he did. His understanding of football and a player's true qualities are second to none. He wouldn't try to fill the hole SAF left, but instead plant new seeds that his successor(s) could work with. My guts tell me that even if he had to leave after 2 seasons for being a stubborn mule, United would be well prepared for the future.
See, even non United fans think hiriing Van Gaal is a good idea!
Never mind the month before, anyone with a passable interest in the premier league was familiar with the flaws in our squad. Goes without saying that someone who actually manages a Premier League team (and plays against MUFC, twice each season) will have known our strengths and weaknesses from the moment he took the job on.
That said, I do think there's some merit in his statements about "getting to know" certain players in the summer and early part of the season. He'll need to work closely with them on the training ground for a number of weeks to get a really accurate gauge of their qualities. It's not as though he could rock up on day one and decided to get rid of the likes of Anderson immediately. He couldn't really think about exactly who to get in until he had a better idea who he was shipping out.
The comparisons don't bear scrutiny (and not just because as someone has already mentioned, Wenger had won the French league or because Rodgers is ten years younger). The main point is why should United in 2013/2014, as the dominant force in English football and the 4th highest revenue generating club in world football, be taking a gamble of this nature? We are not Arsenal after Rioch or Liverpool after Dalglish, and, given he has spent over 10 years down the road doing a praiseworthy but not exceptional job, there is not even the prospect of a massive upside to this gamble (as Liverpool may have with the relatively unproven Rodgers). And "behind the scenes" is irrelevant when the first team performances are so woeful that we are nearly 20 points off the top and 6 behind Everton - this is not a club rebuilding exercise akin to the late eighties.
Or maybe he didn't think coaching top quality players remains a certain quality in itself or that it makes life easier when you have players of that level.
But Moyes himself has said that he always hoped that United would come for him eventually. In which case he should have been keeping a close eye on the team. And hasn't he said that he lives and breathes football and even spends his holidays watching matches? He must have known what he was taking on.
You ever witness Everton play good football? Come out of your shell man. Everton have been one i the most boring teams in the prem for the past 10 years.
It took fecking months to turn us from champions, a team that always finished in the top three in the PL, nearly always in the top two, to a team hoping to make it into the top four next season... After spending 65m and hoping to spend tons more in the summer. It's that pathetic.
Slightly offtopic but... one of the things I keep repeating to myself when walking the streets aimlessly and roaming around my home mumbling and talking to myself incoherently like a lunatic is "How can a man who watches so much football and apparently attends other teams training sessions be so tactically and technically inept"
Please, someone explain to me how.
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He identified from the start that we needed a playmaker in midfield.
He nearly reached our transfer record for Fellaini and smashed it for a no.10 that we didn't need.
so £65 million later, we still need what he identified two windows ago.
An offer of £37 million could've tempted someone to sell us a decent midfielder, surely?
He nearly reached our transfer record for Fellaini and smashed it for a no.10 that we didn't need.
so £65 million later, we still need what he identified two windows ago.
An offer of £37 million could've tempted someone to sell us a decent midfielder, surely?
What amazes me is it is becoming apparent that it was him holding Everton back.
yeah, I've wrestled with that thought. Because on the one hand, yeah, you do need time. Simply counting the numbers would tell you we lack midfielders, but making a judgement on, say, our defense would be harder.
On the other hand - that's the job. Football ain't fair, and the train don't wait. Good managers have to make snap decisions and trust their intuition. Moyes may have been trying to be fair on the players, but man he's paying for it now.
I'm not one of these that wanted, or wants, Mourinho in the job. But one thing's for sure, he'd have made his mind up quick about his players. Look at Mata.
I do too. But then I realise he is on £5m a year and I'd happily do a shite job for a mere fraction of that if United will have me.
Why did no other team ever come in for him if he is that good I would say. The likes of City, Chelsea and Spurs have all had shit loads of managers over the past 10 years. Why did they never go for Moyes?
Glad I'm not the only one....
Only simple explanation is he just isn't good enough.
Well assuming it's a Klopp level manager who built a successful side before I'd give him a benefit of doubt if results weren't good enough.
I'd say some of the biggest Moyes' opponents are those who have followed United for yonks, go to Old Trafford, have strong links with Manchester itself as well as the club, etc etc. You're simplifying the issue. This is not about loyalty to the greatest football club. This is about those people's experiences of supporting Manchester United so far back through their families, it's in their blood. I am not one of those people but I can tell you I started supporting Manchester United well before Sir Alex arrived on the scene.
You CANNOT expect fellow supporters of Manchester United to confuse loyalty to our club with condoning in any way the sheer level of incompetence, folly, waste and other things that have been on 'show' this season. It is very clear the players are not happy and are unsettled and that is down to David Moyes. He is not up to the job.
Winners require managers who understand them and know how to communicate with them even if the manager is not yet a winner himself. Manchester United are currently in the weird grip of a timewarp whereby Sir Bobby, Sir Alex and like minded administrators seem to desperately hope that we can go back to the 80s and magically a decent but ultimate incompetent and negative (yes, he is negative, he is fearful and it shows) manager will somehow replicate the days of decades ago.
It aint happening. The rot will spread if it is not dealt with. Other clubs could put up with it but this is not any club. This is Manchester United. And if you're still confused about the issues at stake, go and watch a replay of Scholesy's comments. The fact that he went on tv to give his opinions about what is going on should be ringing a warning bell or thousand.
Another pertinent question to ask
If we sign a manager good enough for a big club we will do much better.
But if we hire another dud then we obviously should hold on to him for dear life for the sake of it.
There's nothing wrong with getting rid of a managers again and again. It's the hiring of wrong managers that can be an issue.
See, this point alone should be enough to make the Glazer's think "what the hell are doing?"
We are allowing a manager that has proved only that he is tactically inept during his time here, to go out and essentially buy a brand new team.
It just baffles me there are not even any signs pointing to his time running out. It's like we've basically just give him a free pass to perform however until he goes out and buys a brand new team.
I never saw a top manger in him. He was never a manger I thought a big club should go after and I'm not surprised no other one did apart from us. You only have to look at the dull football Everton played for years and years until his final season to know why he wasn't on the top of anyone's list for any of the other big clubs either. It was all roll your sleeved up, get stuck in, get behind the ball, show hearted etc kind of football, befitting of a team looking to finish in the top 8.
With Rodgers on the other hand, due to how Swansea played, I was slightly worried that they had finally signed a good manager. Was anyone wary of the prospect of united getting Moyes other than united fans themselves? Heck, would any of us have been wary of him taking over at our rivals? I'm pretty sure the answer is no to that. Because there's nothing about Moyes that screams top class.
And the football would be great. The quality of the football is a big thing for me, almost as big as the results. If Moyes had us playing some attractive stuff I'd be prepared to give him time, if I could see something he was trying to implement here I could tolerate these defeats a hell of a lot more. But it's just shit on a fecking stick every single week.
We'd give Klopp loads of time to get it right because he's a proven winner, a superb man manager and plays great football into the bargain whilst developing young players, Moyes just doesn't tick any of those boxes. Outrageous appointment this was.
And far worse than Martinez' Everton
9 points. We could be 9 bloody points behind Everton. It's like he's playing a cruel joke on us.
For the sake of perception, no one at United will say anything negative about Moyes...right up to the point where he's fired.
We can write off Fellaini, Mata is a great acquisition, it's not too late to bring in an attack minded manager. Hopefully it won't be too late after next season either.
Sad thing is a manager like Martinez, who although isn't bad cannot really be called top tier, has got the same Everton side he managed playing far better football getting better results in a year. If he couldn't get the absolute best out of those players and couldn't build a successful side there in his 11 years, how is he supposed to build a great side here where the expectations are much higher?
Surely, the right way to judge Martinez would be to see if he can push Everton next season to sustain the success they have achieved so far. The fortunes of mid table teams keeps changing so drastically from one season to another. Pardew was up for the sack last season just after being offered a 6 year contract, wasn't he? I think Everton's fortunes under Moyes fluctuated from one season to another. I just feel it is not fair to jump on the Martinez bandwagon when he is yet to face his biggest challenge in managing a mid table club, how to sustain or go forward from here? Even a club like Tottenham who are now being considered top 4 challengers had to invest huge amounts to be taken seriously. I am in noway downplaying his achievement but I will reserve judgement on him till the next season.
He's never getting sacked. And yes, I have crystal balls.
Well of course I wouldn't say Martinez is a better manager because of this season as Moyes was pretty good at Everton too. It's a fact though that they are significantly better this season than for the past 2 or 3 and are playing a much better brand of football. Martinez also has the unlikely FA Cup to his name and people at Swansea speak of him fondly too, it's difficult to say which of them two is better really but the fact that Martinez got Everton playing so well cannot go unnoticed.