What will it take to sack moyes?

Rozay said:
And I imagine that some people's argument is that they may not be the 'only' thing giving us credit if they got rid of Moyes and replaced him with someone who appears to have a clue.

Personally, I think the fans are the only ones who can change things. The board seem happy enough with how things are going. And all this attacking fans for speaking out as because Sir Alex is the only good thing to ever happen to United or something - the fans are/were also very important in building a great club. They always are. Fans are stakeholders too, and shouldn't be just told to shut up and back the manager all the time. Fans, even ones who are not at Old Trafford, give huge financial and emotional investment to the club, and should be entitled to an opinion.

I know football is a business now and the only accountability seems to be to shareholders and board members, but it would be nice if a club felt some accountability to their supporters. We're all in this together.
Click to expand...

People keep saying this. Based on what, though?
 
Pogue Mahone said:
People keep saying this. Based on what, though?
Click to expand...

Based on comments from Sir Bobby and rumblings from the media that the board have given 'absolutely no thought to sacking Moyes' that have occured throughout this dreadful season. And based on the fact Moyes is still here I suppose!

I appreciate that all of these factors probably give little clue over what is really happening at board level though, and I am more likely irrationally venting.
 
I've been very critical of Moyes for most of our humiliations this season, but last night I actually had a little sympathy for once. This wasn't about playing a one dimensional game of football, or pigeon holeing our players in formations that didn't suit them.

The biggest problem we had last night was a pretty simple one - City had vastly better players than us in crucial areas of the pitch. In particular City had that platform at the rear of Kompany-Toure-Fernandinho. They just bossed the pitch from their box to the centre circle. Any time we tried to play through it we bounced off them. Not for the first time I was reminded of a kid toy fighting with his dad.

On the other hand we had were totally porous in central rear areas. Jones-Rio-Carrick-Fellaini were awful and City glided through us at will. Our players consistently lost their shape and wandered off leaving gaps everywhere. They couldn't get near Silva most of the time. Rio was particularly bad. In a game we lost 3-0 he failed to make a single successful tackle, and lost every duel in the air and on the ground.

I really don't think any formation or personnel changes would have made a difference. Yeah maybe Kagawa for Cleverly, but that's it. The fact is our squad is looking threadbare, and its really catching up with us.

This wasn't like Liverpool when their midfield diamond forced back Fellaini and Carrick and isolated our attackers. That was a tactical decision that caught Moyes out. Pellegrini didn't have to worry about tactics. His players were just better.

Its legitimate to question whether Moyes should have bought in January. I think he should have brought in some short term deals, despite the mantra of wanting the right players at the right time (a point of view Fergie had for 5 straight years, leaving us with the cruddy midfield we saw last night).

Its also fair to say that no result exists in isolation, and even if last night wasn't Moyes' fault, maybe it was the consequence of Moyes' first 10 months in charge. Maybe a pumped up team on a winning run would have made it more competitive.

But last night's performance was ultimately about our failure to successfully rebuild our midfield and defense over the last few years. That is the fault of all those involved with running the club, not just him.
 
Rozay said:
The board seem happy enough with how things are going.
Click to expand...

I'd be astonished if they were happy. I'd also be astonished if they hadn't been discussing whether Moyes is the right man or not. They wouldn't be doing their job if they didn't.

But if word gets out that they are rethinking his position then it snowballs to being untenable in a heartbeat, which would only make things worse. The only thing I think we can say is that they seem to be at least giving him til the end of the season. Since that is the case, doing anything to undermine his tenure til then is totally self-defeating.
 
bishblaize said:
I'd be astonished if they were happy. I'd also be astonished if they hadn't been discussing whether Moyes is the right man or not. They wouldn't be doing their job if they didn't.

But if word gets out that they are rethinking his position then it snowballs to being untenable in a heartbeat, which would only make things worse. The only thing I think we can say is that they seem to be at least giving him til the end of the season. Since that is the case, doing anything to undermine his tenure til then is totally self-defeating.
Click to expand...

Exactly. That's why so many managers get the dreaded "vote of confidence" before getting the chop.

Even more important to keep their cards close to their chest in a company that's listed on the stock exchange. Be downright negligent to let any rumours get out that they might not have full confidence in the manager.
 
bishblaize said:
I'd be astonished if they were happy. I'd also be astonished if they hadn't been discussing whether Moyes is the right man or not. They wouldn't be doing their job if they didn't.

But if word gets out that they are rethinking his position then it snowballs to being untenable in a heartbeat, which would only make things worse. The only thing I think we can say is that they seem to be at least giving him til the end of the season. Since that is the case, doing anything to undermine his tenure til then is totally self-defeating.
Click to expand...

That is easily the sensible explanation, and probably the one I would have come up with myself if I wasn't just whining like a biatch.
 
bishblaize said:
I've been very critical of Moyes for most of our humiliations this season, but last night I actually had a little sympathy for once. This wasn't about playing a one dimensional game of football, or pigeon holeing our players in formations that didn't suit them.

The biggest problem we had last night was a pretty simple one - City had vastly better players than us in crucial areas of the pitch. In particular City had that platform at the rear of Kompany-Toure-Fernandinho. They just bossed the pitch from their box to the centre circle. Any time we tried to play through it we bounced off them. Not for the first time I was reminded of a kid toy fighting with his dad.

On the other hand we had were totally porous in central rear areas. Jones-Rio-Carrick-Fellaini were awful and City glided through us at will. Our players consistently lost their shape and wandered off leaving gaps everywhere. They couldn't get near Silva most of the time. Rio was particularly bad. In a game we lost 3-0 he failed to make a single successful tackle, and lost every duel in the air and on the ground.

I really don't think any formation or personnel changes would have made a difference. Yeah maybe Kagawa for Cleverly, but that's it. The fact is our squad is looking threadbare, and its really catching up with us.

This wasn't like Liverpool when their midfield diamond forced back Fellaini and Carrick and isolated our attackers. That was a tactical decision that caught Moyes out. Pellegrini didn't have to worry about tactics. His players were just better.

Its legitimate to question whether Moyes should have bought in January. I think he should have brought in some short term deals, despite the mantra of wanting the right players at the right time (a point of view Fergie had for 5 straight years, leaving us with the cruddy midfield we saw last night).

Its also fair to say that no result exists in isolation, and even if last night wasn't Moyes' fault, maybe it was the consequence of Moyes' first 10 months in charge. Maybe a pumped up team on a winning run would have made it more competitive.

But last night's performance was ultimately about our failure to successfully rebuild our midfield and defense over the last few years. That is the fault of all those involved with running the club, not just him.
Click to expand...

I agree with all of that but you don't think Moyes should be blamed for his decision to pick an XI that hadn't played a single game together? And field them in a formation we hadn't played once under him before? Then completely abandon all of that, after 10 minutes and revert to a conventional formation, only with the wrong players to execute it properly? His dithering and indecision was shocking. Apparently, he got Valencia to strip down twice and each time sent him back to his seat. Shambolic stuff, it really was.
 
I don't think there's a limit. Club will be stubborn to the extreme in backing him, he's Ferguson's and Charlton's project and they want him to succeed badly, whether now or in 3 years regardless if success at that point will mean winning the league or merely getting European football.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I agree with all of that but you don't think Moyes should be blamed for his decision to pick an XI that hadn't played a single game together? And field them in a formation we hadn't played once under him before? Then completely abandon all of that, after 10 minutes and revert to a conventional formation, only with the wrong players to execute it properly? His dithering and indecision was shocking. Apparently, he got Valencia to strip down twice and each time sent him back to his seat. Shambolic stuff, it really was.
Click to expand...
Aye, it was our setup more than anything. You cannot possibly look at the first minute of the game and think that players knew what was going on and if I had to put my money on why is that it'd be because they never fecking played that way and it was City.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I agree with all of that but you don't think Moyes should be blamed for his decision to pick an XI that hadn't played a single game together? And field them in a formation we hadn't played once under him before? Then completely abandon all of that, after 10 minutes and revert to a conventional formation, only with the wrong players to execute it properly? His dithering and indecision was shocking. Apparently, he got Valencia to strip down twice and each time sent him back to his seat. Shambolic stuff, it really was.
Click to expand...

To be fair, would it have really made a difference either way? I think @bishblaize is right, we would have been tornadoed regardless of players or formation. What I can blame Moyes for, in this respect, is the players he has brought in so far. Fellaini is below the level of his counterparts, and Mata I will reserve judgement on both because he I have seen his quality and also because Silva gave a masterclass and reminder that such a player can still work in the right settings. My first impression when we went after him though was reservations over the exact same reasons his prvious manager had reservations over him.

All in all, it is true we were far inferior to City's team, particularly in midfield However, Moyes has added £65m worth to that midfield since he's come, and it was all on the pitch last night.
 
Last night has changed nothing imo. Will still be sacked at the end of the season.
 
Rozay said:
To be fair, would it have really made a difference either way? I think @bishblaize is right, we would have been tornadoed regardless of players or formation. What I can blame Moyes for, in this respect, is the players he has brought in so far. Fellaini is below the level of his counterparts, and Mata I will reserve judgement on both because he I have seen his quality and also because Silva gave a masterclass and reminder that such a player can still work in the right settings. My first impression when we went after him though was reservations over the exact same reasons his prvious manager had reservations over him.

All in all, it is true we were far inferior to City's team, particularly in midfield However, Moyes has added £65m worth to that midfield since he's come, and it was all on the pitch last night.
Click to expand...

We're not really that much worse than City squad wise. Yes, they're stronger but we should be able to put up a fight against them at home. feck, even Villa and Cardiff did. It's just that this smug joke of a manager has made us believe that we're miles behind them when we'd just won the league last season with the same squad minus Fellaini and Mata (two good players).
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I agree with all of that but you don't think Moyes should be blamed for his decision to pick an XI that hadn't played a single game together? And field them in a formation we hadn't played once under him before? Then completely abandon all of that, after 10 minutes and revert to a conventional formation, only with the wrong players to execute it properly? His dithering and indecision was shocking. Apparently, he got Valencia to strip down twice and each time sent him back to his seat. Shambolic stuff, it really was.
Click to expand...

I think dithering Dave certainly lived up to his expectation. That Valencia stuff was a bit silly. Being decisive might have shown the troops he was command of the situation. Waving not drowning, kind of thing.

But the truth is I dont think any formation or change of personnel would have made much difference and I suspect he knew that. It was like trying to decide between a glass of water and a damp tea towel when the roof is ablaze.
 
I dont get why Buttner didnt play. Surely he should get a run of games if he is to start against Bayern?
 
Sarni said:
We're not really that much worse than City squad wise. Yes, they're stronger but we should be able to put up a fight against them at home. feck, even Villa and Cardiff did. It's just that this smug joke of a manager has made us believe that we're miles behind them when we'd just won the league last season with the same squad minus Fellaini and Mata (two good players).
Click to expand...

Our squad won last season's league. It hasn't won this season's league. I do believe Moyes has a lot of blame to shoulder for our decline, but it is also obvious that we have a lot of dross in the squad. Let's not pretend. Man for man, I'd imagine a maximum of two of ours will get into City's team. And that's on paper before confidence, tactics and all other Moyes-related factors are considered.

I think the Liverpool defeat is a bigger measure of our decline. Getting overrun by Gerrard (on his last legs), Allen and Henderson at home is an embarrassment.
 
Sarni said:
We're not really that much worse than City squad wise. Yes, they're stronger but we should be able to put up a fight against them at home. feck, even Villa and Cardiff did. It's just that this smug joke of a manager has made us believe that we're miles behind them when we'd just won the league last season with the same squad minus Fellaini and Mata (two good players).
Click to expand...

We're absolutely miles behind City, as a squad.

Compare the two teams last night. Who would start for City?

Rooney? De Gea? Can't think of a single other player that would get in their starting line-up. Rooney might get dropped if Aguero was available an' all. That makes 10 City players in a combined XI. The gulf in class is scary.

The fact we finished ahead of them last season is testament to Fergie's genius and Mancini's incompetence. City's squad has been getting better and better over the last two years. Ours has regressed, badly.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
We're absolutely miles behind City, as a squad.

Compare the two teams last night. Who would start for City?

Rooney? De Gea? Can't think of a single other player that would get in their starting line-up. Rooney might get dropped if Aguero was available an' all.

The fact we finished ahead of them last season is testament to Fergie's genius and Mancini's incompetence. City's squad has been getting better and better over the last two years. Ours has regressed, badly.
Click to expand...

Rooney, Mata, Jones and De Gea.
 
we were always going to lose against City like somebody said they are just a better team all round, and some of the best players are on form too. Even with the right formation and right players in right position, we would have still lost. so last night from a technical point of view doesn't really matter.

what Moyes should take full responsibility for is not being able to motivate his players for a derby game. A leader motivates his players or gets them to perform. These players look completely the opposite of that.

so for me, forget formation and tactics - he could get a great #2 and that would help; its his inability to get players playing like a team. I'm not absolving the players from not turning up, but clearly they don't care about him losing his job.
 
Rozay said:
Well maybe he isn't to start against Bayern.
Click to expand...
Then we should be playing whoever is going to start and we all know it wont be Evra... well maybe all of us except Moyes. Champions League is our only chance of winning something (although a very slim to none chance) and we should be gearing everything towards that.
 
You'd imagine the board had a worst-case scenario. A lot of posters, early in the season, were saying a CL spot, a domestic cup win and a CL QF.

I'm sure the yea-sayers on the board stress-tested the various scenarios and said, "what if" to some or all of the above not coming true. Maybe they got a baseline of 10th, early FA cup exit, not winning the LC and out before the CL QF....anything worse than any of those, would mean a sacking.
 
Dirty Schwein said:
Then we should be playing whoever is going to start and we all know it wont be Evra... well maybe all of us except Moyes. Champions League is our only chance of winning something (although a very slim to none chance) and we should be gearing everything towards that.
Click to expand...
or we should practice defending.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
We're absolutely miles behind City, as a squad.

Compare the two teams last night. Who would start for City?

Rooney? De Gea? Can't think of a single other player that would get in their starting line-up. Rooney might get dropped if Aguero was available an' all. That makes 10 City players in a combined XI. The gulf in class is scary.

The fact we finished ahead of them last season is testament to Fergie's genius and Mancini's incompetence. City's squad has been getting better and better over the last two years. Ours has regressed, badly.
Click to expand...

At their absolute best De Gea, Jones, Rafael, Mata and Rooney would start for City.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I agree with all of that but you don't think Moyes should be blamed for his decision to pick an XI that hadn't played a single game together? And field them in a formation we hadn't played once under him before? Then completely abandon all of that, after 10 minutes and revert to a conventional formation, only with the wrong players to execute it properly? His dithering and indecision was shocking. Apparently, he got Valencia to strip down twice and each time sent him back to his seat. Shambolic stuff, it really was.
Click to expand...

The Valencia thing was completely bizarre, but Moyes does seem to spend the first 10 minutes of most games screaming new orders to his players, it's as though he's spent all week working on something & then thinks "fuuuuuck, it's not gonna work" after a couple of minutes.
 
Brophs said:
For all that it's really bad at the moment, I suspect the actual answer is "another 9 or 10 months".
Click to expand...
Unfortunately it does look that way. Though I think the men in charge are bound to put in a call to a few top managers in the summer and see who they could get before deciding to give Moyes yet more time.
 
Big Papi said:
You'd imagine the board had a worst-case scenario. A lot of posters, early in the season, were saying a CL spot, a domestic cup win and a CL QF.

I'm sure the yea-sayers on the board stress-tested the various scenarios and said, "what if" to some or all of the above not coming true. Maybe they got a baseline of 10th, early FA cup exit, not winning the LC and out before the CL QF....anything worse than any of those, would mean a sacking.
Click to expand...

I remember challenging several posters early on who kept saying he should get time, transition etc to state a point where, even in light of the changes, a certain level would be unacceptable even for Moyes. I just couldn't accept that he was going to go into a season where no level of performance could result in him being dismissed. You can say he doesn't have to win the league, but the line must come somewhere. Title? Cl? Europa? Top 10? Relegation? He cannot have a free pass for a year.

Most people didn't want to commit to an answer, and from my recollection, those that did plumped for top 4 or top 6. Hopefully our board have set some sort of line, whatever it is. You can't be a in a performance driven industry with no barometer of measuring. There must be KPIs or whatever, otherwise they should fecking well put me in charge.
 
Varun_Utd said:
Jones of Demichelis. Mata over Nasri. Rooney over Dzeko.
Click to expand...
Rooney, agreed.
Mata over Nasri ? - based on current form or that of 2 seasons ago. Mata has been average at best I'm afraid.
Jones over Demichelis - did you actually see Jones last night?

I hate it as much as most here, but only Rooney could walk into that team.
 
Bloxy said:
Rooney, agreed.
Mata over Nasri ? - based on current form or that of 2 seasons ago. Mata has been average at best I'm afraid.
Jones over Demichelis - did you actually see Jones last night?

I hate it as much as most here, but only Rooney could walk into that team.
Click to expand...

Our manager being shite and incapable of getting the best out of players doesnt suddenly make Nasri a better player than Mata or Demicheles a better defender than Jones. Put the same Nasri in our team and he'd be shittier, DeMicheles, well, I shudder how he'd look in our backline.
 
Sarni said:
Yeah but there isn't much between them at all ability wise. Rafael was probably better last season.
Click to expand...

No he wasn't. Zabaleta's been the best right back in the prem for at least three seasons.

Jones might have a chance of getting into City's central defence but not if he keeps playing like he did last night, or against Liverpool. Atrocious in both games.

No chance is Mata getting picked ahead of Silva or Nasri. Not on the form that they've shown this season.

So you're left with - at best - Rooney and De Gea. With Rooney most likely dropped when Aguero gets fit.

Beggars belief that people think there's no gulf in quality between the two squads.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
No he wasn't. Zabaleta's been the best right back in the prem for at least three seasons.

Jones might have a chance of getting into City's central defence but not if he keeps playing like he did last night, or against Liverpool. Atrocious in both games.

No chance is Mata getting picked ahead of Silva or Nasri. Not on the form that they've shown this season.

So you're left with - at best - Rooney and De Gea. With Rooney most likely dropped when Aguero gets fit.

Beggars belief that people think there's no gulf in quality between the two squads.
Click to expand...

On current form of course none of them would make it which is why we fecking lost to them by 3 goals at home.

In form Mata is a far better player than Nasri and in form Jones is better than anyone bar Kompany.
 
Varun_Utd said:
Our manager being shite and incapable of getting the best out of players doesnt suddenly make Nasri a better player than Mata or Demicheles a better defender than Jones. Put the same Nasri in our team and he'd be shittier, DeMicheles, well, I shudder how he'd look in our backline.
Click to expand...

Better than most of our alternatives.

People have these absurdly inflated idea about how good Smalling and Jones are in central defence when they've been wildly inconsistent (and injury prone) for years now.

If fit, I'd pick Evans ahead of Demichellis. Vidic too but he's pissing off in the summer. And that's it. Demichellis is City's worst central defender, by the way.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
No he wasn't. Zabaleta's been the best right back in the prem for at least three seasons.

Jones might have a chance of getting into City's central defence but not if he keeps playing like he did last night, or against Liverpool. Atrocious in both games.

No chance is Mata getting picked ahead of Silva or Nasri. Not on the form that they've shown this season.

So you're left with - at best - Rooney and De Gea. With Rooney most likely dropped when Aguero gets fit.

Beggars belief that people think there's no gulf in quality between the two squads.
Click to expand...
add gulf in quality of manager and coaches
 
You're trying to compare top form City squad with United squad in the worst shape in their careers. If you'd given Moyes to Barcelona or Bayern and they started playing Moyes football would you also think that none of their players would get into City squad?
 
Sarni said:
On current form of course none of them would make it which is why we fecking lost to them by 3 goals at home.

In form Mata is a far better player than Nasri and in form Jones is better than anyone bar Kompany.
Click to expand...

When have you watched this "in form" Jones as a central defender you're talking about? Certainly not been this season and sure as hell hasn't been in previous seasons?

Or are you talking about the occasional good game, here and there and ignoring all the bad one? Because that's a shite way to judge the quality of any player.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.