What do we still need? Aka The never ending story

DannyCAFC said:
On Gomes - because he can cover both positions (alongside Ugarte or in place of him instead of Bruno). Currently they have nobody to cover Bruno (Mainoo does not work at CM) and another an inexperienced academy player for Ugarte.

Mateta - I think Utd need a more experienced CF. He fits the profile as he's tall, quick and mobile and he's established himself as a good goalscorer in the PL.

Gyokeres is a less realistic option given the cost and he'll likely have better clubs after him. I like Delap a lot but it's another punt on another CF who's still learning his craft.
Click to expand...

Could be a smart signing. I am generally skeptical of being able to sign a player from CP given what they demand for their players but Mateta has his contract expiring in 2026 so we could potentially get him.

Good solution for 3-4 years as first team player and another year as backup.
 
Hope we stay in the PL to keep having the money from TV (talking like a relegation club now :D )

Think we should look for fresh legs, players able to run as I don't see many teams as slow and heavy as our players.

If we stay up, we'll probably finish between 14th and 16th (hopefully) so DRASTIC changes must be done

My first team is better than what we have currently, but second team looks poor.

Out : 155M€ approx plus an savings of £6.6M of wages per month (which is basically £80M on a year without bonus)

Bayindir ==> 5M€ (£35k)
Malacia ==> 7M€ (£75k)
Casemiro ==> 10-15M€ (£350k)
Rashford ==> 40M€ (£300k)
Antony ==> 15M€ (£200k)
Sancho ==> Definitive transfer 20M (£250k)
Garnacho ==> 65M€ (£75k)

Heaton ==> Out of contract (£45k)
Lindelof ==> Out of contract (£120k)
Evans ==> Retirement (£65k)
Eriksen ==> Out of contract (£150k)

In : 245M€ plus an approximative £3.5M of wages per month (which is basically £40M on a year without bonus)

Lukeba ==> 50M€ (£115k)
Ederson ==> 60M€ (£100k)
Matheus Cunha ==>70M€ (£150k)
Osimhen ==> 65M€ (£250k)

Eric Dier ==> Free and English for the homegrow and would be happy to be the 5th/6th CB (£115k)
Norgaard ==> Free (£50k)
Angel Gomes ==> Free, homegrown and would fit both 8th and 10th positions (£50k)

--------------------------------------------------Onana------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------Yoro-----------De Ligt-------------Lukeba----------------------------
Amad-----------------------------Ederson-------------Mainoo/Ugarte-----------------Dorgu
---------------------------------------Cunha------------------Bruno---------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------Osimhen----------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------------Hojlund-------------------------------------------------------
--------Mount/Angel Gomes/Amad---------------Mount/Angel Gomes/Amad------
Dalot----------------Noorgaard/Collyer-------------Ugarte/Mainoo------------Mazraoui
-----------------Martinez/Shaw----------Maguire---------------Dier--------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------GK-------------------------------------------------------------

You bring 7/8 new players, have a net spent of 90M€ have reduced your wage bill of 40M£ per year (that would bring us behind the likes of Chelsea and Pool)

You have "cleaned" the dressing room for good (except Shaw, Mount, Dalot and maybe Maguire), you took relatively young players that can run an play in this system.
 
Chaky_Best said:
Hope we stay in the PL to keep having the money from TV (talking like a relegation club now :D )

Think we should look for fresh legs, players able to run as I don't see many teams as slow and heavy as our players.

If we stay up, we'll probably finish between 14th and 16th (hopefully) so DRASTIC changes must be done

My first team is better than what we have currently, but second team looks poor.

Out : 155M€ approx plus an savings of £6.6M of wages per month (which is basically £80M on a year without bonus)

Bayindir ==> 5M€ (£35k)
Malacia ==> 7M€ (£75k)
Casemiro ==> 10-15M€ (£350k)
Rashford ==> 40M€ (£300k)
Antony ==> 15M€ (£200k)
Sancho ==> Definitive transfer 20M (£250k)
Garnacho ==> 65M€ (£75k)

Heaton ==> Out of contract (£45k)
Lindelof ==> Out of contract (£120k)
Evans ==> Retirement (£65k)
Eriksen ==> Out of contract (£150k)

In : 245M€ plus an approximative £3.5M of wages per month (which is basically £40M on a year without bonus)

Lukeba ==> 50M€ (£115k)
Ederson ==> 60M€ (£100k)
Matheus Cunha ==>70M€ (£150k)
Osimhen ==> 65M€ (£250k)

Eric Dier ==> Free and English for the homegrow and would be happy to be the 5th/6th CB (£115k)
Norgaard ==> Free (£50k)
Angel Gomes ==> Free, homegrown and would fit both 8th and 10th positions (£50k)

--------------------------------------------------Onana------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------Yoro-----------De Ligt-------------Lukeba----------------------------
Amad-----------------------------Ederson-------------Mainoo/Ugarte-----------------Dorgu
---------------------------------------Cunha------------------Bruno---------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------Osimhen----------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------------Hojlund-------------------------------------------------------
--------Mount/Angel Gomes/Amad---------------Mount/Angel Gomes/Amad------
Dalot----------------Noorgaard/Collyer-------------Ugarte/Mainoo------------Mazraoui
-----------------Martinez/Shaw----------Maguire---------------Dier--------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------GK-------------------------------------------------------------

You bring 7/8 new players, have a net spent of 90M€ have reduced your wage bill of 40M£ per year (that would bring us behind the likes of Chelsea and Pool)

You have "cleaned" the dressing room for good (except Shaw, Mount, Dalot and maybe Maguire), you took relatively young players that can run an play in this system.
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Lukeba has a release clause of €90m or something like that.
 
anyone who mentions a striker that lacks pace clearly isn't watching us play or doesn't understand how this system is intended to be played

it's why Gyokeres has been so successful in it playing under Ruben bc it suits his running and uses his pace to stretch the back 4 which gives the two ACM's space to exploit

yes...Onana is clearly a bit of a liability but replacing him shouldn't be a priority initially

that priority has to be striker , RWB and CM ....in that order simply b/c of the system and who are the key players in that system

Ruben still hasn't figured out what to do with Mainoo bc he's not mobile enough to play the defensive role with Ugarte but he's also not i would say attack minded enough to play in the 2 ACM positions

You can see with Dorgu how Amorim wants to play by having a left wing back that has the legs to get up and down the wing which is what you'll see with Quenda on the right
 
bosskeano said:
anyone who mentions a striker that lacks pace clearly isn't watching us play or doesn't understand how this system is intended to be played

it's why Gyokeres has been so successful in it playing under Ruben bc it suits his running and uses his pace to stretch the back 4 which gives the two ACM's space to exploit

yes...Onana is clearly a bit of a liability but replacing him shouldn't be a priority initially

that priority has to be striker , RWB and CM ....in that order simply b/c of the system and who are the key players in that system

Ruben still hasn't figured out what to do with Mainoo bc he's not mobile enough to play the defensive role with Ugarte but he's also not i would say attack minded enough to play in the 2 ACM positions

You can see with Dorgu how Amorim wants to play by having a left wing back that has the legs to get up and down the wing which is what you'll see with Quenda on the right
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Left wing and centre back more important than CM. We have Garnacho for left wing and that's it.

Mainoo will look much better as will many other players when we don't have literally the worst striker in the premier league starting up top alongside a slow backline.
 
I actually think that sometimes it can be hard to see what we are missing. Because who is not good enough, and who is "just" seriously hit on the self-confidence?

Examples:

Onana: We have seen him make miracle saves, and we have talked about how fantastic he was earlier this season. Suddenly he looks like a clown again. Is it a lack of self-confidence or level?

Højlund: Last season at this time he was one of the players the fans would like to keep the most. He scored 7 goals in 6 games and became the top scorer in both Europe and the PL. Now the criticism of him will never end. Is it a lack of self-confidence in a young striker, or a lack of level?

Garnacho: He has scored absolutely crazy goals and played really good games at a young age. Now he has not scored in about 15 games and not under Amorim. Is it a lack of self-confidence or level?

Maguire: The last couple of seasons he was so poor. Fans were making videos of him and he was ridiculed and bullied - by fans and pundits alike. Now he plays significantly better and is probably among our 3 best players this season. He was hit on the confidence, never the level.
 
Hester_manc said:
I actually think that sometimes it can be hard to see what we are missing. Because who is not good enough, and who is "just" seriously hit on the self-confidence?

Examples:

Onana: We have seen him make miracle saves, and we have talked about how fantastic he was earlier this season. Suddenly he looks like a clown again. Is it a lack of self-confidence or level?

Højlund: Last season at this time he was one of the players the fans would like to keep the most. He scored 7 goals in 6 games and became the top scorer in both Europe and the PL. Now the criticism of him will never end. Is it a lack of self-confidence in a young striker, or a lack of level?

Garnacho: He has scored absolutely crazy goals and played really good games at a young age. Now he has not scored in about 15 games and not under Amorim. Is it a lack of self-confidence or level?

Maguire: The last couple of seasons he was so poor. Fans were making videos of him and he was ridiculed and bullied - by fans and pundits alike. Now he plays significantly better and is probably among our 3 best players this season. He was hit on the confidence, never the level.
Click to expand...
Onana and Höjlund have been poor for a very long time. Garnacho has talent. Maguire is playing quite well but should not be a United CB. Only Garnacho has any value in the market and might finance Cunha, or remain.
 
Hester_manc said:
I actually think that sometimes it can be hard to see what we are missing. Because who is not good enough, and who is "just" seriously hit on the self-confidence?

Examples:

Onana: We have seen him make miracle saves, and we have talked about how fantastic he was earlier this season. Suddenly he looks like a clown again. Is it a lack of self-confidence or level?

Højlund: Last season at this time he was one of the players the fans would like to keep the most. He scored 7 goals in 6 games and became the top scorer in both Europe and the PL. Now the criticism of him will never end. Is it a lack of self-confidence in a young striker, or a lack of level?

Garnacho: He has scored absolutely crazy goals and played really good games at a young age. Now he has not scored in about 15 games and not under Amorim. Is it a lack of self-confidence or level?

Maguire: The last couple of seasons he was so poor. Fans were making videos of him and he was ridiculed and bullied - by fans and pundits alike. Now he plays significantly better and is probably among our 3 best players this season. He was hit on the confidence, never the level.
Click to expand...
Confidence is a big factor with a lot of players and effects them in different ways.

Onana started bad, had a good spell and then went bad again - the question is weather it’s 2 slumps in form or one purple patch of good form. I’m leaning to the latter and you can’t really have a keeper who makes so many basic errors leading to goals. I don’t think confidence is an issue with him as he seems a strong character.

Hoijlund is a player I really liked and was sure he would succeed. I’m not so sure now as every deficiency in his game has been put under the microscope. He would need to hit high numbers of goals to be a success as the rest of his game is so far off. The current team and situation does not help at all though but he has to take some responsibility for that. The number of touches he has per game is ludicrous. Still young and still hope but it’s a long shot at the moment.

Maguire is a player I like because he is a fighter. When we signed him I was please as I rated him from his days at Hull. Unfortunately he never really hit his England heights for us. Is the reason he looks better now because of where we are and he’s more near his true level? Either way, how he has kept going and puts everything in is something to be commended.

Garnacho is a good player who the system does not suit well but he is showing signs of adapting. He is in and out of the team quite a bit which had affected his output. I think it’s highly likely he leaves in the summer which will be a real shame and something we will most likely regret in the long run.

The true top players have extremely high confidence in themselves all the time which makes losses of form either non existent or short lived. They can still do the basics it’s usually that their end product is not at its usual level.

Our players fail at the basics when confidence is down which probably points to problems with mentality and ability.
 
1st team

Amad
Mazraoui
De Ligt
Yoro
Dorgu
Ugarte

Bruno



Backup team

Bayindir
Dalot
Heaven
Maguire
Martinez
Shaw
Collyer
Mainoo
Mount
Garnacho
Hojlund

Zirkzee

So we need 4 first team players. Gk, CM, AM and a striker
 
Hester_manc said:
I actually think that sometimes it can be hard to see what we are missing. Because who is not good enough, and who is "just" seriously hit on the self-confidence?

Examples:

Onana: We have seen him make miracle saves, and we have talked about how fantastic he was earlier this season. Suddenly he looks like a clown again. Is it a lack of self-confidence or level?

Højlund: Last season at this time he was one of the players the fans would like to keep the most. He scored 7 goals in 6 games and became the top scorer in both Europe and the PL. Now the criticism of him will never end. Is it a lack of self-confidence in a young striker, or a lack of level?

Garnacho: He has scored absolutely crazy goals and played really good games at a young age. Now he has not scored in about 15 games and not under Amorim. Is it a lack of self-confidence or level?

Maguire: The last couple of seasons he was so poor. Fans were making videos of him and he was ridiculed and bullied - by fans and pundits alike. Now he plays significantly better and is probably among our 3 best players this season. He was hit on the confidence, never the level.
Click to expand...

here's the bigger question....who can get Hojlund the ball in proper places to score goals?
 
Goalkeepers
  • If we can sell Onana for £25m or so, let's do it. I suspect that James Trafford or Marco Carnescchi would be a similar amount and would be an upgrade (Trafford in the long term, of course).
  • Replace Bayindir with one of the youngsters like Vitek or Harrison.
  • Keep Heaton one more year (home grown, sensible 3rd choice option)
Centre Backs
  • Yoro and Mazraoui are a good pair for the right hand side.
  • de Ligt and Maguire are decent for the central role, for now. Kukonki in backup.
  • With Martinez out part of next season and increasingly injury affected, Heaven and Shaw can't really be trusted here, for obvious but differing reasons. Dean Huijsen looks an excellent option here for the £50m release clause.
Wing Backs
  • Geovany Quenda seems a must for the right side and I think this will get done for around £40m. Dalot to back up both sides.
  • Dorgu is good for the left side. For his backup, maybe bed in Diego Leon. I doubt we'll be able to offload Shaw and he could cover here (as well as Dalot and Mazraoui). Amass to be loaned.
Centre Midfielders
  • I like Fernandes, Ugarte and Collyer as options here. The youngsters like Kone and Fletcher can also compete with them but I'd rather they be loaned out.
  • While I love Mainoo, I don't think he is dynamic enough for this team and we can probably sell him for £60m. We need a dynamic playmaker with defensive discipline.
  • Sign Hugo Larsson for £40m+. He has great potential and is ready to start now.
Attacking Midfielders
  • Amad is ideal for the right. Get in Sverre Nypan or Franco Mastantuono to compete with him - £15m I guess.
  • Sell Garnacho for £50m+. He is exciting but doesn't quite fit and we need the PSR room.
  • Sign Matheus Cunha for £60m release clause.
  • Keep Zirkzee as his backup. Mount can probably go if we're able to offload him.
Strikers
  • Jonathan David on a free makes sense. Is he absolutely elite? Doubt it, but he's useful and most of the other striking options on the market are super expensive and/or have huge asterisks by their name.
  • Loan out Rasmus. Get his confidence back, either to compete here again or to raise his value for sale.
  • Liam Delap would be around £45m and is probably worth it, especially if competing with David. He's nasty, physical and good for home grown rules - all qualities we need, especially if selling Garnacho and Mainoo.
  • Keep Obi in the mixer.
 
bosskeano said:
here's the bigger question....who can get Hojlund the ball in proper places to score goals?
Click to expand...
I haven't seen Hojlund doing ANYTHING good with the ball in at least the last 15 games. Even in the last game when he could have tried to go for the shot he opted to let the ball pass by to nowhere. We could be better at creating chances, but doesn't help that our strikers are either not in the right spots or can't do anything when they get their chance.
 
SparkedIntoLife said:
Goalkeepers
  • If we can sell Onana for £25m or so, let's do it. I suspect that James Trafford or Marco Carnescchi would be a similar amount and would be an upgrade (Trafford in the long term, of course).
  • Replace Bayindir with one of the youngsters like Vitek or Harrison.
  • Keep Heaton one more year (home grown, sensible 3rd choice option)
Centre Backs
  • Yoro and Mazraoui are a good pair for the right hand side.
  • de Ligt and Maguire are decent for the central role, for now. Kukonki in backup.
  • With Martinez out part of next season and increasingly injury affected, Heaven and Shaw can't really be trusted here, for obvious but differing reasons. Dean Huijsen looks an excellent option here for the £50m release clause.
Wing Backs
  • Geovany Quenda seems a must for the right side and I think this will get done for around £40m. Dalot to back up both sides.
  • Dorgu is good for the left side. For his backup, maybe bed in Diego Leon. I doubt we'll be able to offload Shaw and he could cover here (as well as Dalot and Mazraoui). Amass to be loaned.
Centre Midfielders
  • I like Fernandes, Ugarte and Collyer as options here. The youngsters like Kone and Fletcher can also compete with them but I'd rather they be loaned out.
  • While I love Mainoo, I don't think he is dynamic enough for this team and we can probably sell him for £60m. We need a dynamic playmaker with defensive discipline.
  • Sign Hugo Larsson for £40m+. He has great potential and is ready to start now.
Attacking Midfielders
  • Amad is ideal for the right. Get in Sverre Nypan or Franco Mastantuono to compete with him - £15m I guess.
  • Sell Garnacho for £50m+. He is exciting but doesn't quite fit and we need the PSR room.
  • Sign Matheus Cunha for £60m release clause.
  • Keep Zirkzee as his backup. Mount can probably go if we're able to offload him.
Strikers
  • Jonathan David on a free makes sense. Is he absolutely elite? Doubt it, but he's useful and most of the other striking options on the market are super expensive and/or have huge asterisks by their name.
  • Loan out Rasmus. Get his confidence back, either to compete here again or to raise his value for sale.
  • Liam Delap would be around £45m and is probably worth it, especially if competing with David. He's nasty, physical and good for home grown rules - all qualities we need, especially if selling Garnacho and Mainoo.
  • Keep Obi in the mixer.
Click to expand...
Very sensible post
 
GK: Gregor Kobel.
Probably unrealistic but still possible if we can do straight swap deal Onana and Kobel. Kobel wages is actually higher than Onana so Dortmund can afford Onana’s wages. I definitely don’t fancy a young keeper if we want to replace Onana.

CB: Huijsen.
He’s available for £50m release clause. I think he would be good enough to start in central role for us but also can provide cover for the left centre back role.

Midfield: Nørgaard
The market for midfielder is limited this summer. I think we should be targeting for short term one. He has PL experienced, improve our physicality (height of 185cm), and low or reasonable wages.

Wingback: Quenda.
He can play both wings.

L10: Cunha
Available for £62m release clause. Probably need to sell Garnacho for around £62m to be able to afford him.

Striker: Delap
Probably the realistic target in comparison to Osimhen and Gyokeres. I actually think his style of play is similar to Gyokeres. Very strong physically and likes to run channel.
 
JE-365 said:
GK: Gregor Kobel.
Probably unrealistic but still possible if we can do straight swap deal Onana and Kobel. Kobel wages is actually higher than Onana so Dortmund can afford Onana’s wages. I definitely don’t fancy a young keeper if we want to replace Onana.

CB: Huijsen.
He’s available for £50m release clause. I think he would be good enough to start in central role for us but also can provide cover for the left centre back role.

Midfield: Nørgaard
The market for midfielder is limited this summer. I think we should be targeting for short term one. He has PL experienced, improve our physicality (height of 185cm), and low or reasonable wages.

Wingback: Quenda.
He can play both wings.

L10: Cunha
Available for £62m release clause. Probably need to sell Garnacho for around £62m to be able to afford him.

Striker: Delap
Probably the realistic target in comparison to Osimhen and Gyokeres. I actually think his style of play is similar to Gyokeres. Very strong physically and likes to run channel.
Click to expand...

Yeah I could see Delap being our top striker target and know he divides opinion. Still not convinced we sign another CB, however agree we need to add a midfielder that won't cost much. Personally I won't be that gutted if we do sell Garnacho to fund a deal for Cunha. We definitely need a new keeper but doesn't feel like we are just gonna discard Onana in summer.
 
croadyman said:
Yeah I could see Delap being our top striker target and know he divides opinion. Still not convinced we sign another CB, however agree we need to add a midfielder that won't cost much. Personally I won't be that gutted if we do sell Garnacho to fund a deal for Cunha. We definitely need a new keeper but doesn't feel like we are just gonna discard Onana in summer.
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It’ll be a waste of opportunity if we don’t even try to sign Huijsen for 50m. Not often you see a young top class talented CB with PL experienced cost 50m or less because Everton and Palace asked for 70m on Branthwaite and Guehi, while West Ham paid 40m on Max Killman. The market is open to sign someone as quality and talented as Huijsen for 50m this summer and we should take the opportunity. Otherwise, when we are desperate to sign CB or to replace Maguire next year, we will end up spending 70m-80m.
 
JE-365 said:
It’ll be a waste of opportunity if we don’t even try to sign Huijsen for 50m. Not often you see a young top class talented CB with PL experienced cost 50m or less because Everton and Palace asked for 70m on Branthwaite and Guehi, while West Ham paid 40m on Max Killman. The market is open to sign someone as quality and talented as Huijsen for 50m then we should take it. Otherwise, when we are desperate to sign CB or to replace Maguire next year, we will end up spending 70m-80m.
Click to expand...

I agree with you, however just wonder how far up the priority list a CB is considering our budget
 
croadyman said:
I agree with you, however just wonder how far up the priority list a CB is considering our budget
Click to expand...
I consider it as priority. IMO de Ligt is more suitable as RCB than the central defender. Maguire cannot be relied on central defender because he doesn’t have ball recovery to cover lot of ground as last man in defense.

IMO When you want to build a team with 3 centre backs, I think the central position needs to be able to cover the ground more. If anything I think the Right and left sided centre back don’t require incredible pace because the ground they cover isn’t as much as the central defender.

The best example of back three I had seen is Conte at chelsea with Azpi - Luiz - Cahill. Luiz had ability to cover grounds. Both of his ball playing ability and ball recovery were important under Conte system.
 
Primarily a regista. I know Bruno is evolving into one but I'd rather get a specialist.

------------------------------ New CF --------------------------------
------ Dorgu ------ New #10 ----- Bruno ---- Amad -----
---------------------- Ugarte ----- New CM ---------------------
----------------- New LCB --- Maguire --- Yoro -------------
---------------------------------- Onana ------------------------------

Beyond that, a Delap style CF could be useful even though I haven't given up hope on Hojlund / Zirkzee.

A #10 (inside forward) of the Rashford ilk but better close control / touch.

Pacy LCB who is comfortable defending wide spaces.

I think quite achievable this summer.

JE-365 said:
IMO When you want to build a team with 3 centre backs, I think the central position needs to be able to cover the ground more. If anything I think the Right and left sided centre back don’t require incredible pace because the ground they cover isn’t as much as the central defender.
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I disagree, the two wide center backs are the ones that need to cover the ground. The CCB can be quite slow. Thiago Silva at .. like 40 did a decent job at CCB. The mental attributes, passing matter here not physical. The wide center backs are responsible for nipping in and trying to aggressively win the ball back up high. They also need good recovery pace when they don't win the challenge. They also need to cover the wide spaces and potentially tricky wingers (flashbacks of Adama v Martinez).
 
JE-365 said:
GK: Gregor Kobel.
Probably unrealistic but still possible if we can do straight swap deal Onana and Kobel. Kobel wages is actually higher than Onana so Dortmund can afford Onana’s wages. I definitely don’t fancy a young keeper if we want to replace Onana.

CB: Huijsen.
He’s available for £50m release clause. I think he would be good enough to start in central role for us but also can provide cover for the left centre back role.

Midfield: Nørgaard
The market for midfielder is limited this summer. I think we should be targeting for short term one. He has PL experienced, improve our physicality (height of 185cm), and low or reasonable wages.

Wingback: Quenda.
He can play both wings.

L10: Cunha
Available for £62m release clause. Probably need to sell Garnacho for around £62m to be able to afford him.

Striker: Delap
Probably the realistic target in comparison to Osimhen and Gyokeres. I actually think his style of play is similar to Gyokeres. Very strong physically and likes to run channel.
Click to expand...
You must have not followed Kobel so far. He is a great shot stopper but very weak with his feet. I doubt Amorim would use a GK like him in his system.
 
Damn I am reading that Frankfurt want at least €60m for Hugo Larsson. He is probably the best CM talent around that is not playing for a top team already. We should be all over him but I guess our financial situation makes it difficult.
 
aeh1991 said:
Damn I am reading that Frankfurt want at least €60m for Hugo Larsson. He is probably the best CM talent around that is not playing for a top team already. We should be all over him but I guess our financial situation makes it difficult.
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Yeah feel we can only afford to spend big on maybe one position out of ST, CM and L10 which is frustrating but understandable in the situation
 
croadyman said:
Yeah feel we can only afford to spend big on maybe one position out of ST, CM and L10 which is frustrating but understandable in the situation
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We could hope that Larsson stays at Frankfurt for another season as he's only 20. And get him one year later. Think he would suit us a lot and bias aside I think he has a much higher ceiling than Mainoo.
 
Teja said:
I disagree, the two wide center backs are the ones that need to cover the ground. The CCB can be quite slow. Thiago Silva at .. like 40 did a decent job at CCB. The mental attributes, passing matter here not physical. The wide center backs are responsible for nipping in and trying to aggressively win the ball back up high. They also need good recovery pace when they don't win the challenge. They also need to cover the wide spaces and potentially tricky wingers (flashbacks of Adama v Martinez).
Click to expand...

That where I disagree with Tuchel 3 at the back system. He was lucky that Thiago Silva is world class with his positioning, but Maguire is nowhere near Silva’s level in term of positioning and reading the game. That’s why I always think Conte’s chelsea back three were better and more balanced than Tuchel back three.

The CCB should not be slow at all if we want to play high line because he is the last man in defense. The player who is the last man in defense will need to cover more grounds when playing high line.

During counter attack which when it’s vulnerable, if the wide CB got beaten, at least there is another defender which the CCB to cover for the wide CB. On the other hand, the CCB has no cover behind him other than the keeper.

During the defensive transition, the wide CB will have help from the wingbacks to cover the ground especially in Amorim system the wingback became like fullback in defensive transition. So if the wingbacks are beaten, the wide CB will have enough time to cover the ground despite of not being incredibly quick.
 
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JE-365 said:
That where I disagree with Tuchel 3 at the back system. He was lucky that Thiago Silva is world class with his positioning, but Maguire is nowhere near Silva’s level in term of positioning and reading the game. That’s why I always think Conte’s chelsea back three were better and more balanced than Tuchel back three.

The CCB should not be slow at all if we want to play high line because he is the last man in defense. The player who is the last man in defense will need to cover more grounds when playing high line.

During counter attack which when it’s vulnerable, if the wide CB got beaten, at least there is another defender which the CCB to cover for the wide CB. On the other hand, the CCB has no cover behind him other than the keeper.

During the defensive transition, the wide CB will have help from the wingbacks to cover the ground especially in Amorim system the wingback became like fullback in defensive transition. So if the wingbacks are beaten, the wide CB will have enough time to cover the ground despite of not being incredibly quick.
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What you're saying effectively is that something like Martinez -- Yoro --- De Ligt would work. But we've seen both Martinez and De Ligt's struggles out wide so I don't see how it could possibly be fine. You could look at a bunch of back five systems (say Alonso, Tuchel, Conte etc.)

Say you look at Inter under Inzaghi right now:

https://fbref.com/en/squads/d609edc...azionale-Scores-and-Fixtures-All-Competitions

The CCB is a not very mobile guy like De Vrij flanked by two defensive fullback / mobile center back types like Pavard and Bisseck. That's the template for basically every back five system -- a defensive anchor in the middle flanked by two mobile CBs. Don't see why Amorim would be any different.

You could extend it to back four systems too because everyone basically plays a 3-2 shape anyway. For City it's something like:

-------- Ajanki / Ake --- Dias --- Walker ------

The two guys out wide are pseduo defensive fullback / CB types.

The mobility works on offence too, there's an expectation that a wide center back can actually carry the ball forwards in certain situations to help with the build up. You can't exactly ask a De Ligt / Maguire type defender to do that but you can easily have a Shaw or a Walker type defender just carry it forward and throw the opposition into chaos.
 
Teja said:
What you're saying effectively is that something like Martinez -- Yoro --- De Ligt would work. But we've seen both Martinez and De Ligt's struggles out wide so I don't see how it could possibly be fine. You could look at a bunch of back five systems (say Alonso, Tuchel, Conte etc.)

Say you look at Inter under Inzaghi right now:

https://fbref.com/en/squads/d609edc...azionale-Scores-and-Fixtures-All-Competitions

The CCB is a not very mobile guy like De Vrij flanked by two defensive fullback / mobile center back types like Pavard and Bisseck. That's the template for basically every back five system -- a defensive anchor in the middle flanked by two mobile CBs. Don't see why Amorim would be any different.

You could extend it to back four systems too because everyone basically plays a 3-2 shape anyway. For City it's something like:

-------- Ajanki / Ake --- Dias --- Walker ------

The two guys out wide are pseduo defensive fullback / CB types.

The mobility works on offence too, there's an expectation that a wide center back can actually carry the ball forwards in certain situations to help with the build up. You can't exactly ask a De Ligt / Maguire type defender to do that but you can easily have a Shaw or a Walker type defender just carry it forward and throw the opposition into chaos.
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You’re right and that’s pretty much how Amorim set things up at Sporting too.

He previously had Coates as his CCB with Inacio and Pereira/Diomande either side, before moving Diomande into CCB with Debast at RCB to make the back line super mobile.

It’s clearly a very important part of how we need to be set-up. I think Maguire and De Ligt at CCB, Maz and Yoro at RCB, with Martinez and Shaw at LCB on paper is workable. The reality is both Shaw and Martinez are injury flight risks and Heaven is an unknown currently.

If we need a cheap option then Boscagli on a free could be a like for like with Martinez. Aleksandro Ribeiro at Lille is an interesting option that would likely cost no more than 30m. If we’re looking at young players that could come in and play minutes immediately then Jorrel Hato and Mika Faye would be my bets.
 
The wider CBs are the players that need pace. During his time at United, I thought that Aaron Wan-Bissaka might have worked well in that role, even though the back four was in use and he played primarily as a RB. Now, he is actually showing a creative side playing for West Ham, so he is not being used in the role there either but my point is he is a pacy defender who has the ability to defend very well in one-on-one situations. For me, that is what you are looking for in a wide CB, rather than a slow defender who is unable to match tricky wide forwards or recover when pace is needed. Before anybody says it, no, I am not suggesting United make a move to resign him...I would rather they went for Diomande if they are going to move for a CB. He would be my first choice as the middle CB.
 
Lot of talk about the lack of any sort of budget...well, that is not necessarily the case...

Firstly, United have the Sancho money due from Chelsea (reportedly £25m) which is mandatory.

Secondly, United fans should keep a close eye on one of their former players, Mason Greenwood, as it seems highly likely that they will receive a nice windfall from the agreed sell-on that will kick in after the widely expected transfer takes place this summer. Greenwood is looking increasingly likely to move from Marseilles after his performance this season (14 goals & 3 assists in 23 games in Ligue 1, second behind only Dembélé of PSG) with several big clubs expected to compete for his services. The sell-on clause is a whopping 50%! As a result, Manchester United will receive half of the profit from any sale. Reported numbers are being quoted at around €65m, in which case, United would receive around £15m as they sold him to Marseille for £26m.

The above transactions are a guarantee and a very probable - United would stand at around £40m at this stage.

Next, the out on loan trio of Rashford, Antony and Malacia are all performing better away from United than they were during their recent spells at Old Trafford. Hopefully, bids will flow accordingly! IF Marcus Rashford is sold, United will expect to receive another £40m if he stays with Villa (they have an optional clause) or, if he moves elsewhere (Spain, for example, has been touted). Either way, if he goes, United look set for a decent sum. Antony, if he continues to impress at Real Betis, where many fans are already calling for him to be signed permanently, could bring another sizeable fee. It appears no buying clause was added to the contract but Antony, who has scored several goals and created others in his first half a dozen matches for Real Betis, is not doing himself any harm in the shop window - even his red card was overturned.

With a sale of Rashord, United would stand at around £80m at this stage. Antony and / Malacia could swell that figure towards £125m.

Lindelof, Evans, Eriksen and Heaton are all out of contract, taking considerable wages off the books - not Casemiro, Shaw & Mount I know but it is a start.

Now it gets to the point that will divide fans. Many of us would like to see upgrades on players such as Onana and Hojlund but what may well happen is that the club choose to move Mainoo and / or Garnacho, in order to give a serious boost to their war chest. IF that happens, then the piggy bank will be far from empty.

Without any sales featuring players such as Onana, de Ligt, Zirkzee or Hojlund, not to mention Shaw, Martinez, Casemiro and Mount, United could still find themselves with something in the region of £250m to spend on the obviously lacking first team squad. With arguably GK, CB, RWB, M, AM & ST all needing upgrades, that figure would go a long way toward helping Ruben Amorim put together the team of his vision.

It is shaping up to be a very interesting and very important summer for Manchester United...and one where they may have more to spend than many people expect.
 
Teja said:
What you're saying effectively is that something like Martinez -- Yoro --- De Ligt would work. But we've seen both Martinez and De Ligt's struggles out wide so I don't see how it could possibly be fine. You could look at a bunch of back five systems (say Alonso, Tuchel, Conte etc.)

Say you look at Inter under Inzaghi right now:

https://fbref.com/en/squads/d609edc...azionale-Scores-and-Fixtures-All-Competitions

The CCB is a not very mobile guy like De Vrij flanked by two defensive fullback / mobile center back types like Pavard and Bisseck. That's the template for basically every back five system -- a defensive anchor in the middle flanked by two mobile CBs. Don't see why Amorim would be any different.

You could extend it to back four systems too because everyone basically plays a 3-2 shape anyway. For City it's something like:

-------- Ajanki / Ake --- Dias --- Walker ------

The two guys out wide are pseduo defensive fullback / CB types.

The mobility works on offence too, there's an expectation that a wide center back can actually carry the ball forwards in certain situations to help with the build up. You can't exactly ask a De Ligt / Maguire type defender to do that but you can easily have a Shaw or a Walker type defender just carry it forward and throw the opposition into chaos.
Click to expand...

If you notice, de Ligt is struggling more when he plays as CCB than when he plays as RCB because he plays more reactive as CCB while plays more proactive as RCB. He plays reactive as CCB because he cannot make ball recovery as the last man in defense if he plays proactive. This is why we need to have CCB with ball recovery pace. The likes of Licha and de Ligt plays proactive when they play as wide CB, when a defender play proactively means they take a risk by leaving their position to leave bigger gaps between the CCB and wide CB, these gaps are the gaps that CCB will need to be able to cover. It will be even better to have the three defenders with pace recovery though. But we are not going to sign 3 CB in summer window.

Serie A doesn’t set their team to play high pace football like PL. Teams will play high line and will always try to catch the others on counter with pace. So I wouldn’t compare Serie A back three with how PL teams should set their back three.

During their treble, Man city had John Stones stepped in DM in front of their defense. As soon as they don’t have the ball or lose the ball, Stones quickly back to the defense and formed back four. We don’t set up like that.
 
TRUE NUMBER 9 said:
Lot of talk about the lack of any sort of budget...well, that is not necessarily the case...

Firstly, United have the Sancho money due from Chelsea (reportedly £25m) which is mandatory.

Secondly, United fans should keep a close eye on one of their former players, Mason Greenwood, as it seems highly likely that they will receive a nice windfall from the agreed sell-on that will kick in after the widely expected transfer takes place this summer. Greenwood is looking increasingly likely to move from Marseilles after his performance this season (14 goals & 3 assists in 23 games in Ligue 1, second behind only Dembélé of PSG) with several big clubs expected to compete for his services. The sell-on clause is a whopping 50%! As a result, Manchester United will receive half of the profit from any sale. Reported numbers are being quoted at around €65m, in which case, United would receive around £15m as they sold him to Marseille for £26m.

The above transactions are a guarantee and a very probable - United would stand at around £40m at this stage.

Next, the out on loan trio of Rashford, Antony and Malacia are all performing better away from United than they were during their recent spells at Old Trafford. Hopefully, bids will flow accordingly! IF Marcus Rashford is sold, United will expect to receive another £40m if he stays with Villa (they have an optional clause) or, if he moves elsewhere (Spain, for example, has been touted). Either way, if he goes, United look set for a decent sum. Antony, if he continues to impress at Real Betis, where many fans are already calling for him to be signed permanently, could bring another sizeable fee. It appears no buying clause was added to the contract but Antony, who has scored several goals and created others in his first half a dozen matches for Real Betis, is not doing himself any harm in the shop window - even his red card was overturned.

With a sale of Rashord, United would stand at around £80m at this stage. Antony and / Malacia could swell that figure towards £125m.

Lindelof, Evans, Eriksen and Heaton are all out of contract, taking considerable wages off the books - not Casemiro, Shaw & Mount I know but it is a start.

Now it gets to the point that will divide fans. Many of us would like to see upgrades on players such as Onana and Hojlund but what may well happen is that the club choose to move Mainoo and / or Garnacho, in order to give a serious boost to their war chest. IF that happens, then the piggy bank will be far from empty.

Without any sales featuring players such as Onana, de Ligt, Zirkzee or Hojlund, not to mention Shaw, Martinez, Casemiro and Mount, United could still find themselves with something in the region of £250m to spend on the obviously lacking first team squad. With arguably GK, CB, RWB, M, AM & ST all needing upgrades, that figure would go a long way toward helping Ruben Amorim put together the team of his vision.

It is shaping up to be a very interesting and very important summer for Manchester United...and one where they may have more to spend than many people expect.
Click to expand...
We are getting into random numbers and a string of things going our way, being realistic it won't be close to this.
 
Hammondo said:
We are getting into random numbers and a string of things going our way, being realistic it won't be close to this.
Click to expand...
Hence why I wrote IF, more than once. It would take some luck and a lot of work but they already have a start and will look to move a few of them out at least, so they may well end up closer to that figure than you think.
 
aeh1991 said:
Would Damsgaard be a serious alternative to Cunha? Could be much cheaper.
Click to expand...
Good player but more of a creator. He's not even close to Cunha in terms of goals. You'd imagine the alternative for Amorim is Pedro Goncalves.
 
Goals goals goals goals goals. If we create and score goals we will win loads more games because our overall play isn’t always too bad. It’s the final third we’ve been so poor and it’s let us down.

Creative midfielder
Pace for the wings
Experienced striker or two and give hojlund a bit part role.
 
aeh1991 said:
Would Damsgaard be a serious alternative to Cunha? Could be much cheaper.
Click to expand...
Just signed a fairly lengthy contract extension sadly. Means he absolute won’t be cheap anymore.

Shame as I thought he could be an interesting option too until I learned that.
 
I had serious doubts about Cunha after his assault on the Ipswich staff member which he got a lenient ban for. After yesterday I think we'd be mad to go near him.

It's irrelevant how good he is if he's a complete nutter who's at risk of spending half the season suspended because he can't control his temper. Signing the right sort of character is as important as quality.
 
JE-365 said:
L10: Cunha
Available for £62m release clause. Probably need to sell Garnacho for around £62m to be able to afford him.
Click to expand...
When will people stop pushing for us to sign this hothead? The bloke got away with a small ban in December for swinging elbows and ripping glasses off a staff member's face. He is now facing a lengthy ban for multiple offences yesterday including a headbutt and a kick. Imagine if he behaved like this at United? Everyone would be calling him a disgrace.

But yeah, let's sell a 20 year old Garnacho so we can afford Cunha, because at least when he's not suspended, he slots into Amorim's very specific formation.
 
Despite all the talk of forwards, which I accept we need, centre midfield remains my main concern for what seems like about the tenth year in a row. There’s no cover for Ugarte and everyone else is unproven/shite.
 
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