Westminster Politics

TwoSheds said:
Ok but the electorate is an average of the collective "switched on"-ness of everybody in the country and the average really doesn't change much through the generations. Trying to blame people for being the product of their genetics and environment is pointless. What you can blame is the system that's supposed to educate them as opposed to trick them i.e. the media, and the system that's supposed to teach them critical thinking i.e. the education system, presided over by successive poor governments.

And as for who you'd elect instead, I tend to think the Lib Dem and Labour leaders are both pretty awful but you'd have to hope there's some decent people in their parties somewhere. The right answer to your question is pretty much "someone else". And then if they are shit the answer again becomes "someone else", ad infinitum.

Whenever you're afraid to change the people who are failing in case the next lot are worse, you're removing the incentive to not be cnuts from the incumbent as they will believe they can act with impunity. In that way you're pretty much guaranteeing poor performance and corruption. You see it with councils all over the country, whenever the councillors don't believe there's any threat to their seats they start supplementing their salaries in all sorts of creative ways (usually property development).
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Yes indeed, there isn't much in what you have said that I would disagree with, except perhaps waiting for the 'collective' electorate to see things your way via education etc. The two most important pieces of legislation in my lifetime (well almost) have been the Education Act 1944 and the National Health Service Act 1946. These two pieces of legislation acted as the catalyst to change the old way of life for millions, we need something 'ground-breaking' or 'breathtakingly' similar now, otherwise we are 'not learning from our mistakes in history'.

Our whole way of life is built on precedent, our law making, our way of looking at things, going forward, etc. but with world wide issues like Climate Change, Mass Migration, Pandemics, now facing us, looking back has to take on a new dimension, the sort that the post War Labour Government saw when it brought in the above Acts following the end of WW2. They were determined to make a difference, no matter how long it took.

However looking around I don't see any current politicians (any party) who could even think that way, let alone act in such ways, it is all short- term thinking. The Chinese think in terms of 30, 50, even 100 year plans, the nearest we have is the HS2 plan (and that is going to pot already!) to be fair to Boris his 'levelling up' agenda is on the right track, but he is the wrong leader to see it through, the Tories will now be searching for someone to take over from Boris, what is Labour and/or the Lib Dems doing... the truth is the Conservatives now hold the ball, and they will move heaven and earth to stop Boris dropping it?
 
Maticmaker said:
Yes indeed, there isn't much in what you have said that I would disagree with, except perhaps waiting for the 'collective' electorate to see things your way via education etc. The two most important pieces of legislation in my lifetime (well almost) have been the Education Act 1944 and the National Health Service Act 1946. These two pieces of legislation acted as the catalyst to change the old way of life for millions, we need something 'ground-breaking' or 'breathtakingly' similar now, otherwise we are 'not learning from our mistakes in history'.

Our whole way of life is built on precedent, our law making, our way of looking at things, going forward, etc. but with world wide issues like Climate Change, Mass Migration, Pandemics, now facing us, looking back has to take on a new dimension, the sort that the post War Labour Government saw when it brought in the above Acts following the end of WW2. They were determined to make a difference, no matter how long it took.

However looking around I don't see any current politicians (any party) who could even think that way, let alone act in such ways, it is all short- term thinking. The Chinese think in terms of 30, 50, even 100 year plans, the nearest we have is the HS2 plan (and that is going to pot already!) to be fair to Boris his 'levelling up' agenda is on the right track, but he is the wrong leader to see it through, the Tories will now be searching for someone to take over from Boris, what is Labour and/or the Lib Dems doing... the truth is the Conservatives now hold the ball, and they will move heaven and earth to stop Boris dropping it?
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Interesting point about being too backwards looking and needing something a bit revolutionary to change the way we live, work and think. I would absolutely love that and tbh that's why I usually vote Green even though I don't like the "hippyish" aspects of what they're often talking about. And I do think Corbyn would have shaken things up if he'd got in but he was too old fashioned in the way he spoke about it all and conveyed his message I think (as well as being continually character assassinated by the folk with vested interests).

None of the Tories are actually interested in levelling up though. They are the party of austerity, increasing inequality and repressing the poor. And they always have been. New Labour weren't much better but they at least occasionally threw someone a bone. All you can do is vote for change and keep voting for change until someone finally delivers it.
 
Maticmaker said:
Yes indeed, there isn't much in what you have said that I would disagree with, except perhaps waiting for the 'collective' electorate to see things your way via education etc. The two most important pieces of legislation in my lifetime (well almost) have been the Education Act 1944 and the National Health Service Act 1946. These two pieces of legislation acted as the catalyst to change the old way of life for millions, we need something 'ground-breaking' or 'breathtakingly' similar now, otherwise we are 'not learning from our mistakes in history'.

Our whole way of life is built on precedent, our law making, our way of looking at things, going forward, etc. but with world wide issues like Climate Change, Mass Migration, Pandemics, now facing us, looking back has to take on a new dimension, the sort that the post War Labour Government saw when it brought in the above Acts following the end of WW2. They were determined to make a difference, no matter how long it took.

However looking around I don't see any current politicians (any party) who could even think that way, let alone act in such ways, it is all short- term thinking. The Chinese think in terms of 30, 50, even 100 year plans, the nearest we have is the HS2 plan (and that is going to pot already!) to be fair to Boris his 'levelling up' agenda is on the right track, but he is the wrong leader to see it through, the Tories will now be searching for someone to take over from Boris, what is Labour and/or the Lib Dems doing... the truth is the Conservatives now hold the ball, and they will move heaven and earth to stop Boris dropping it?
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The only purpose of HS2 and Leveling Up were to convince the electorate in the North and Midlands to vote Tory. As soon as it required them to actually put in the money required those 'plans' were revealed a the vapour they always were.

If you genuinely want to know what Tories think, listen to what they say to each other, to the speeches they give to Tory groups and thinktanks and the books they write. What they say on TV and during elections is nothing but puff intended to swing the electorate around to handing them power.
 
Kentonio said:
The only purpose of HS2 and Leveling Up were to convince the electorate in the North and Midlands to vote Tory. As soon as it required them to actually put in the money required those 'plans' were revealed a the vapour they always were.

If you genuinely want to know what Tories think, listen to what they say to each other, to the speeches they give to Tory groups and thinktanks and the books they write. What they say on TV and during elections is nothing but puff intended to swing the electorate around to handing them power.
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But isn't this the problem, the Tories know what to say, the idea of 'levelling up', was never broached by Labour. I live in a rock solid Labour area, (still is). When there is a Labour Government we are always at the back of the queue for any government help, why? Because you could put up a dog with a Labour sign on it and it would get voted in, so the Labour hierarchy bye-pass our needs. Conversely the Tories have given up on ever taking this seat/area so they also put us at the back of the queue for anything worthwhile, in fact they couldn't care less.
Maybe the 'red wall' changes might just shake things up, for areas like ours anything is better than what we have now... please don't even mention the Lib dems!!!
 
Maticmaker said:
When there is a Labour Government we are always at the back of the queue for any government help, why?
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I don't think that's true in the slightest. I come from Bassetlaw, and that place definitely improved markedly under Blair.

Maticmaker said:
Maybe the 'red wall' changes might just shake things up, for areas like ours anything is better than what we have now... please don't even mention the Lib dems!!!
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I get so angry hearing this all the time from people in Labour heartlands. You've just lived through a decade of Tory misrule, funding cuts and mismanagement, and yet people think the answer to that is to vote in more Tories. It beggars belief, it really does. How much power do you actually think a local MP has for feck sake?
 
TwoSheds said:
Liz Truss and Nadine Dorries now pretty much Boris' 2 most important ministers :lol:
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It is remarkable. You might have thought that Boris would be self-aware enough to want to compensate for his own rather obvious shortcomings by appointing a team of highly competent people to do the work for him. Instead, he as accumulated arguably the least talented front bench in living memory.

Priti Patel is of course well known for being monumentally stupid, but Liz Truss is on another level. In the past few years I have been independently told by three separate people who have had the misfortune to deal with Truss in a professional capacity, that she is without doubt the thickest minister they have ever come across, completely unable to get her head around even the simplest of briefings, with civil servants forced into explaining topics as one might if dealing with a child or a labrador.
 
Infra-red said:
Priti Patel is of course well known for being monumentally stupid, but Liz Truss is on another level. In the past few years I have been independently told by three separate people who have had the misfortune to deal with Truss in a professional capacity, that she is without doubt the thickest minister they have ever come across, completely unable to get her head around even the simplest of briefings, with civil servants forced into explaining topics as one might if dealing with a child or a labrador.
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I have sometimes wondered whether it is a bit of an act with Truss, much like Johnson, but it seems she really is just thick. Amazes me someone like her can get to such high positions in government, and is seemingly in with a chance of becoming the next leader of the Conservative Party and potentially a PM!
 
esmufc07 said:
I have sometimes wondered whether it is a bit of an act with Truss, much like Johnson, but it seems she really is just thick. Amazes me someone like her can get to such high positions in government, and is seemingly in with a chance of becoming the next leader of the Conservative Party and potentially a PM!
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If you think about in terms of who might be pulling her strings then she's the perfect candidate for next PM.
 
esmufc07 said:
I have sometimes wondered whether it is a bit of an act with Truss, much like Johnson, but it seems she really is just thick. Amazes me someone like her can get to such high positions in government, and is seemingly in with a chance of becoming the next leader of the Conservative Party and potentially a PM!
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Johnson's reputation is of someone intelligent but unbelievably work-shy - in his case, the bumbling buffoon act is definitely just that, an act.

Truss is allegedly just thick.
 
TheGame said:
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@Pexbo right now
 
Infra-red said:
It is remarkable. You might have thought that Boris would be self-aware enough to want to compensate for his own rather obvious shortcomings by appointing a team of highly competent people to do the work for him. Instead, he as accumulated arguably the least talented front bench in living memory.

Priti Patel is of course well known for being monumentally stupid, but Liz Truss is on another level. In the past few years I have been independently told by three separate people who have had the misfortune to deal with Truss in a professional capacity, that she is without doubt the thickest minister they have ever come across, completely unable to get her head around even the simplest of briefings, with civil servants forced into explaining topics as one might if dealing with a child or a labrador.
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It's not really remarkable though. If you're a power hungry but incompetent leader, in order to maintain power you either need to surround yourself with people who have good reason to go along with you and stay loyal (e.g. family, people you can blackmail), or you need to surround yourself with people too dim and uninspiring to be able to challenge you.

If you think about it Boris tried the first tactic with his brother who couldn't face being tarred with the Brexit brush, and Cummings whose power hungry nature meant he was very keen to stay as the PM's adviser but eventually even he grew to be fed up. He then has gradually moved more and more down the 2nd route by appointing the likes of Truss, Raab, Patel, Williamson, Shapps, Dorries etc to high office. And in fact the whole Tory party is something of a reflection of this strategy as he booted out anyone who wouldn't vote for his shit Brexit deal, thereby removing most of the backbone and remaining competence from the parliamentary party at a stroke.
 
Kentonio said:
I don't think that's true in the slightest. I come from Bassetlaw, and that place definitely improved markedly under Blair.
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On a side note and in relation to this, I think that one of Labour’s biggest and most fatal mistakes, was going to such extreme lengths to distance themselves from their record in government after Ed Miliband became leader in 2010. I liked Ed Miliband, thought he was treated shabbily by the media, and wish that the 2015 election ended with him as PM instead of Cameron. But he deserves a lot of criticism for that. The Tories would never distance themselves from positive achievements (or what they themselves considered to be positive achievements) from previous administrations, they would lap them up.

Yes that meant distancing themselves from the bad decisions, notably re Iraq. But it also meant distancing themselves from their numerous positive achievements, such as reducing hospital waiting times, reducing school class sizes, what was in my opinion their best achievement of all significantly reducing child poverty (it’s no surprise that this increased noticeably under the Tories from 1979-1997, decreased noticeably under Labour from 1997-2010 and has sky rocked under the Tories since 2010) etc. Plus they also allowed the Tories to bang the ‘mess we inherited’ drum, and blame them for causing a global financial crash, without defending themselves properly.

Given that Labour had majorities of 160-180 between 1997-2005, at least or more than double what Johnson currently has, I think that they certainly could have achieved more in government. But what they did achieve was still significantly better than what the Tories did either before or afterwards.
 
GuybrushThreepwood said:
On a side note and in relation to this, I think that one of Labour’s biggest and most fatal mistakes, was going to such extreme lengths to distance themselves from their record in government after Ed Miliband became leader in 2010. I liked Ed Miliband, thought he was treated shabbily by the media, and wish that the 2015 election ended with him as PM instead of Cameron. But he deserves a lot of criticism for that. The Tories would never distance themselves from positive achievements (or what they themselves considered to be positive achievements) from previous administrations, they would lap them up.

Yes that meant distancing themselves from the bad decisions, notably re Iraq. But it also meant distancing themselves from their numerous positive achievements, such as reducing hospital waiting times, reducing school class sizes, what was in my opinion their best achievement of all significantly reducing child poverty (it’s no surprise that this increased noticeably under the Tories from 1979-1997, decreased noticeably under Labour from 1997-2010 and has sky rocked under the Tories since 2010) etc. Plus they also allowed the Tories to bang the ‘mess we inherited’ drum, and blame them from causing a global financial crash, without defending themselves properly.

Given that Labour had majorities of 160-180 between 1997-2005, at least or more than double what Johnson currently has, I think that they certainly could have achieved more in government. But what they did achieve was still significantly better than what the Tories did either before or afterwards.
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Honestly, I wish they'd have just owned the bad too. They didn't have a choice over the Iraq war. No British government, conservative or British would have done. Own up to the mistake, blame the Americans and move on.
 
owlo said:
Honestly, I wish they'd have just owned the bad too. They didn't have a choice over the Iraq war. No British government, conservative or British would have done. Own up to the mistake, blame the Americans and move on.
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Yes the Tories enthusiastically supported the Iraq War. I remember when Charles Kennedy (RIP) delivered his speech opposing the invasion in the Commons, he was disgracefully heckled by dimwitted Tory MPs rather than Labour MPs.

It’s safe to say that had there been a Tory government in 2003, British troops probably would have entered Iraq even earlier; as a very small silver lining Blair did persuade Bush to delay the invasion and try to first seek support from the UN (which they correctly refused to give).

Still an absolutely disastrous and stupid decision from Blair and he deserved the criticism that he received for it; my family and I were part of the protests against it. I will say though that a Labour government with that disastrous invasion and their overall domestic record, clearly beats a Tory government still with that disastrous invasion (probably from an even earlier stage) but with a far worse domestic record.
 
Kentonio said:
I don't think that's true in the slightest. I come from Bassetlaw, and that place definitely improved markedly under Blair.



I get so angry hearing this all the time from people in Labour heartlands. You've just lived through a decade of Tory misrule, funding cuts and mismanagement, and yet people think the answer to that is to vote in more Tories. It beggars belief, it really does. How much power do you actually think a local MP has for feck sake?
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Oh yes it is, I'm not talking about the last decade I am talking about 50 + years. Maybe in Bassetlaw you had someone pulling the strings in the Labour Party, but that is not true everywhere. For most of my adult life Labour has had plenty of opportunity to look after its own... like the Tories do.
The fact is Labour took its 'heartlands' for granted and even when they got wiped out in Scotland and hence forfeited any real chance of 'swinging it' in Westminster it still didn't sink in. Under current boundaries the fact remains Labour cannot win in Westminster without significant seats in Scotland... but they haven't realised that, even now they are still trying a nod and a wink to Sturgeon. If anyone is still in doubt that Labour is now a London based-centrist left party, they must be walking about with eyes closed and ears plugged.

Pity the Labour party didn't listen in the red wall areas, there may not have been such a Tory Majority? You can be as angry as you want it won't change anything. "Levelling up' should have been the Labour battle cry every since the Millennium, but they've handed it on a plate, to of all people Boris Johnson.... that's what makes me angry!
 
Maticmaker said:
Oh yes it is, I'm not talking about the last decade I am talking about 50 + years. Maybe in Bassetlaw you had someone pulling the strings in the Labour Party, but that is not true everywhere. For most of my adult life Labour has had plenty of opportunity to look after its own... like the Tories do.
The fact is Labour took its 'heartlands' for granted and even when they got wiped out in Scotland and hence forfeited any real chance of 'swinging it' in Westminster it still didn't sink in. Under current boundaries the fact remains Labour cannot win in Westminster without significant seats in Scotland... but they haven't realised that, even now they are still trying a nod and a wink to Sturgeon. If anyone is still in doubt that Labour is now a London based-centrist left party, they must be walking about with eyes closed and ears plugged.

Pity the Labour party didn't listen in the red wall areas, there may not have been such a Tory Majority? You can be as angry as you want it won't change anything. "Levelling up' should have been the Labour battle cry every since the Millennium, but they've handed it on a plate, to of all people Boris Johnson.... that's what makes me angry!
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When you say they've handed it on a plate to Boris Johnson... I assume you voted for him? But you're still angry? :lol:
 
Fluctuation0161 said:
When you say they've handed it on a plate to Boris Johnson... I assume you voted for him? But you're still angry? :lol:
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Yes because albeit after Labour confirmed their incompetence to rule by deciding on a leader who could never win a GE in the UK, they then surprisingly had some success in the run up to the GE by starting discussions on one or two important matters and aroused interest within the electorate. Then when they realised this might appeal, they went around promising everything to everybody, all at once!

Boris then pitched in and was offering 'Jam tomorrow' vote for me now... it wont happen, or will it? ... but I had to give it a try, after all the Labour was by now coming across as the Raving Loony Party (minus Lord Sutch!) and I had evidence from my own experience of Labour dumping on its heartlands, even when it was in power, so I 'turned my coat'.

I was a Labour Party member for close on 20 years, I was a TU Shop Steward and at times begged our political wing (so called Labour Party) to stop playing politics and get to really helping the working man. However it all fell on deaf ears, I am now utterly frustrated with Labour and whilst I wont vote Conservative again, I will never vote Labour because I genuinely believe they couldn't organise a 'p***-up in the proverbial Brewery!
 
Maticmaker said:
I will never vote Labour because I genuinely believe they couldn't organise a 'p***-up in the proverbial Brewery!
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Gordon Brown could certainly organise a piss-up, he was a competent chancellor for a record 10 years, and is widely respected outside the UK for his role immediately after the 08 crash. No guarantee Labour has people like that any more, but I wouldn't say 'never', we will have to see how Labour economic policy develops now some of the loons have gone.
 
Who do we think has all this material on the Tory's?

Quite interesting all this stuff being steadily released. Photos and what not. Why now and what's the agenda?
 
TheReligion said:
Who do we think has all this material on the Tory's?

Quite interesting all this stuff being steadily released. Photos and what not. Why now and what's the agenda?
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Matt Hancock making a play to be PM. Could be Priti Patel or Rishi Sunak. Inside job for sure.
 
Klopper76 said:
Matt Hancock making a play to be PM. Could be Priti Patel or Rishi Sunak. Inside job for sure.
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It simply has to be doesn't it. Quite interesting and shows how ruthless it all is. People have banked all these photos and what not ready for the right time...
 
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