Westminster Politics

africanspur said:
Well yes. The EU leaders aren't mythical, omniscient figures, they are human men and women, who don't necessarily have an intimate knowledge of everything, including the internal politics of a country that isn't their own. Just as I wouldn't necessarily expect UK leaders to necessarily know the ins and outs of Irish, German, Italian or Hungarian politics or geography and I wouldn't consider it some great slight if someone were to say so.

Of course, you are so quick to believe the absolute worst about anything to do with the UK ( like seriously believing the MHRA was full of chancers who make their decisions based on politics based on a clearly sarcastic remark I made about how people on here think things work there) and the opposite for anything that isn't the UK that you jump on anything that doesn't fit your own views. Such as a post which is 99% talking about how Johnson is a total buffoon and how his own party's rhetoric and approach have removed the possibility of any goodwill from the EU on this issue (and rightly so) and picking up on a passing comment about how some leaders (including one who called a vaccine quasi effective) may not totally get every intricacy of a political system of another country.

Let me put it this way. If I were to write 'The intricacies of France may well be lost on Johnson/May/Cameron/Blair/Brown/Thatcher/insert whichever leader you like', how would you feel about that statement?
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The intracacy of Northern Ireland's relationship with the rest of the UK is the main focal point of Brexit and always has been. It's not just a point of mild interest that has no real significance. Possibly the UK's leaders don't know that Macron is one of the two princes of Andorra but that's not really a vital piece of knowledge for Brexit.

You still think that every single detail has not been covered time and time again by the negotiators and passed on by them to all the leaders.
What Johnson should realise is that Northern Ireland is now part of the European Custom's Union. He hasn't understood that.
 
Brwned said:
The intricacies he’s referring to are quite unique though. Every single one of those leaders lived through the political conflict in NI, and aside from the basque separatist movement, there was no other region in Europe that was even remotely comparable in terms of horror stories. It wasn’t something you could avoid even if you wanted to.

They understand the importance of the Good Friday agreement and the delicate issue of an Irish border well enough to make decisions that account for them. That’s ultimately what he’s talking about, and lying about.

It is obviously true they aren’t aware of some of the minutiae, but then that’s true of Johnson too, and ultimately the finer details aren’t something they need to know for these decisions. They just need to know the contours and they do know them. Particularly given one of the EU members is Ireland, and they’re vocal about it. Plus the US president chips in.

It’s not the same as knowing whether there’s a particular territory in Hungary that has a particular sense of identity and ties to its neighbours. I’m sure they don’t know much about the relationship between England and Wales, for example, because they don’t need to and nothing would have brought it to their attention.
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Really? I don't remember the Basque separatist movement being particularly prominent in the UK I have to be honest. I think we're over emphasising our own importance here and don't think Macron for instance had to have a great knowledge of UK politics viz a viz NI to become a big figure in French politics.

To clarify, I don't believe for a second that EU leaders don't actually understand that the UK is a single country (Which was obviously Johnson's stupid point meant for a domestic audience), just that I don't think its that ridiculous to think they may not know (again emphasis on the may) of the intricacies of a small province in a different country. I also agree that Johnson doesn't either and that more importantly, he doesn't care and I doubt he thought of it as an issue when he was advocating for Brexit either.
 
Foxbatt said:
He is pfeffling his way.
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Well done Gary Gibbon. He has got away with being a compulsive liar for far too long.
Ok. I am not a fan of Boris. But I despise the way he has lowered the standards of the UK where people think that telling the truth and behaving with integrity is no longer necessary or even important.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
You still think that every single detail has not been covered time and time again by the negotiators and passed on by them to all the leaders.
What Johnson should realise is that Northern Ireland is now part of the European Custom's Union. He hasn't understood that.
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Oh no! I really I think he has, and has took a gamble on it (as is his way with things).

After the EU marched its men up to the top of the hill over vaccines and then marched them down again, Boris is once more emboldened and believes the EU is not going to repeat the exercise i.e. threaten to start a trade war over sausages, not whilst the world is still in the grip of a pandemic.

Problem is, a large proportion of the public over here agree with him.
 
africanspur said:
Really? I don't remember the Basque separatist movement being particularly prominent in the UK I have to be honest. I think we're over emphasising our own importance here and don't think Macron for instance had to have a great knowledge of UK politics viz a viz NI to become a big figure in French politics.

To clarify, I don't believe for a second that EU leaders don't actually understand that the UK is a single country (Which was obviously Johnson's stupid point meant for a domestic audience), just that I don't think its that ridiculous to think they may not know (again emphasis on the may) of the intricacies of a small province in a different country. I also agree that Johnson doesn't either and that more importantly, he doesn't care and I doubt he thought of it as an issue when he was advocating for Brexit either.
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As a Northern Irishman I have no delusions of grandeur. Most of the European citizens couldn’t tell you whether Northern Ireland is in Ireland or “England”. People who were adults in the 70s have some vague understanding of who the IRA are in the same way people of that age in the UK have a vague understanding of the ETA - many won’t know the name, most remember the conflict but don’t know the reasons behind it. And the peak violence in Northern Ireland was several times larger than the ETA.

The European leaders are different. This is brought up by their Irish counterpart over and over again. It’s a feature of the Brexit discussion that involves a specific legal workaround that creates new political tensions. It’s something they have specifically talked about in numerous interviews over the years.

They do not want to compromise the structural integrity of the single market and at the same time they don’t want to create a new flashpoint for political terrorism. There’s only a handful of places that are legitimate concerns for political terrorism in Europe and they all know them, they know this one even more because of its now unique role in the single market. They care a lot about both of those things, which elevates it above some territorial differences in some European country.
 
africanspur said:
Sorry to carry this on but he's leading a summit of most of the world's richest and most powerful nations, where he hopes to focus attention on climate change (and rightly so).

Macron, Draghi, Merkel, Biden, yes they have to turn up by plane realistically. Though if they were also really serious, train is not out of the picture. But to be a few hours away from somewhere and to take private jet there is of course both a ridiculous look and anathema to the message he's trying to put forward.

I'd also understand if he was going there for a few hours or something or even a day but he is going for quite a few days.

I'm sure he likes the feelings of power it gives him though.
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Likes the feelings of power...
He adores it.
He glories in it.
He is drunk on the prestige and all the trappings of being a leader even though he does not understand how to behave.
 
Brwned said:
As a Northern Irishman I have no delusions of grandeur. Most of the European citizens couldn’t tell you whether Northern Ireland is in Ireland or “England”. People who were adults in the 70s have some vague understanding of who the IRA are in the same way people of that age in the UK have a vague understanding of the ETA - many won’t know the name, most remember the conflict but don’t know the reasons behind it.

The European leaders are different. This is brought up by their Irish counterpart over and over again. It’s a feature of the Brexit discussion that involves a specific legal workaround that creates new political tensions. It’s something they have specifically talked about in numerous interviews over the years.

They do not want to compromise the structural integrity of the single market and at the same time they don’t want to create a new flashpoint for political terrorism. There’s only a handful of places that are legitimate concerns for political terrorism in Europe and they all know them, they know this one even more because of its now unique role in the single market. They care a lot about both of those things, which elevates it above some territorial differences in some European country.
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Fair enough, I'll probably leave it there then.

Not really sure how I've ended up debating this point, one I don't even particularly believe in, for the past half an hour, when it was a throwaway line in a post where I was mostly talking about what a total idiot Johnson is but I guess such is the way of the internet I guess!
 
Maticmaker said:
Oh no! I really I think he has, and has took a gamble on it (as is his way with things).

After the EU marched its men up to the top of the hill over vaccines and then marched them down again, Boris is once more emboldened and believes the EU is not going to repeat the exercise i.e. threaten to start a trade war over sausages, not whilst the world is still in the grip of a pandemic.

Problem is, a large proportion of the public over here agree with him.
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He even lied about that in the interview and yet again wasn't picked up on it - the EU threatened to invoke A16 but didn't - Johnson said they did.
This isn't about sausages - it's about a third country not having rights to do things other third countries can't do.

Maybe the Uk should let in a few more East European immigrants, they shouldn't be so purist.
The Uk vitally need a proper opposition party with a leader who has got a backbone.
 
Priti Patel: Fans have right to boo England team taking the knee, it’s ‘gesture politics’
The Home Secretary did not condemn England fans who had booed footballers for taking the knee.


Priti Patel backs England fans booing the team taking the knee at Euro 2020, labelling the act “gesture politics”.
The Home Secretary does not support what she calls a “choice for them” after Gareth Southgate’s side faced jeers from a minority of fans at their first match of the tournament.
It comes after a Number 10 spokesman said that the Prime Minister wants the public to “cheer them on, not boo” at the tournament and explicitly supported those who decide to take part in the protest.

However, Ms Patel took a different stance to Boris Johnson, telling GB News: “I just don’t support people participating in that type of gesture, gesture politics, to a certain extent, as well.”

She claimed the Black Lives Matter protests last summer had a “devastating” impact on policing as she criticised the toppling of the statue of 17th century slave trader Edward Colston in Bristol.

https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/fo...nd-take-knee-euro-2021-euro-2021-b940499.html

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She's such an odious woman.
 
It is gesture politics. When Nancy Pelosi is comfortable taking a knee you can presume that the entire thing has lost all sort of meaning. It's now become a caricature of itself and commentators/TV personalities are attempting to play the role of educators which is also irritating.

The hypocrisy is that Patel is the personification of a gesture politician. See her shadowing the police evicting migrants as an example. The difference being that she gestures to racists and bigots.
 
neverdie said:
It is gesture politics. When Nancy Pelosi is comfortable taking a knee you can presume that the entire thing has lost all sort of meaning. It's now become a caricature of itself and commentators/TV personalities are attempting to play the role of educators which is also irritating.

The hypocrisy is that Patel is the personification of a gesture politician. See her shadowing the police evicting migrants as an example. The difference being that she gestures to racists and bigots.
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It has lost any impact. In a similar way to the clap for NHS, firstly by including anyone and everyone - and more relevant going on to long that people were tired of it.

how many teams are actually still doing it?

I didn’t watch the start of the Scotland game - but read they weren’t doing it, except in the game against England? Which presumably was because they thought they would get a backlash in that game…

personally when so many others have given up, it seems a nonsense to carry on. However, each team has the right to decide what to do - and if England carry on doing it, then I’ll support them. It’s the players decision. It’s a disgrace to boo the players.

in a way, teams picking and choosing far better than what we saw at the end of the PL season, when I’m sure some teams didn’t want to do it - but the optics around it would not be worth stopping.

the PL needs to think about how to introduce a new initiative for the start of the new season.

In other news, I find it strange that a ‘professional politician’ like Patel can keep putting her foot in it. Im sure she didn’t need to get involved in this debate.
 
Whether you think taking the knee has any impact is besides the point.

The fact is, the FA, Gareth Southgate, and the England team have all said that they'll be taking the knee before England games.

The least an England fan can do is not boo this gesture (even if they disagree with it). Why else are they there if not to support the team? I mean, what are they booing exactly? A collective anti-racist gesture? How pathetic that they need to boo that.

Anyway, Priti Patel is just a cnut.
 
neverdie said:
It is gesture politics. When Nancy Pelosi is comfortable taking a knee you can presume that the entire thing has lost all sort of meaning. It's now become a caricature of itself and commentators/TV personalities are attempting to play the role of educators which is also irritating.

The hypocrisy is that Patel is the personification of a gesture politician. See her shadowing the police evicting migrants as an example. The difference being that she gestures to racists and bigots.
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Personally I too prefer it when social justice campaigns never gain the public’s attention and go “main stream”. If BLM had stayed a bit under the radar and their cause was largely ignored, I would be all in.

When a campaign like that comes to the attention of some of the biggest lawmakers in the world, you know it’s gone too far and has likely failed.
 
Pexbo said:
Personally I too prefer it when social justice campaigns never gain the public’s attention and go “main stream”. If BLM had stayed a bit under the radar and their cause was largely ignored, I would be all in.

When a campaign like that comes to the attention of some of the biggest lawmakers in the world, you know it’s gone too far and has likely failed.
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Yes, you're right, because Pelosi's attemps at legislation have been completely consistent with her rhetoric. It isn't indicative of her appropriating a legitimate issue in order to stop it moving as far as it should.

Palestinian flags are also being shown before every game and so any suspicion of corporatization and hijacking of the original movement are completely unfounded. If only you had been here sooner to educate us all.
 
Pexbo said:
Personally I too prefer it when social justice campaigns never gain the public’s attention and go “main stream”. If BLM had stayed a bit under the radar and their cause was largely ignored, I would be all in.

When a campaign like that comes to the attention of some of the biggest lawmakers in the world, you know it’s gone too far and has likely failed.
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as I said earlier, I think this iteration has run its course. But do you not think it’s made a difference?

no one in their right mind would think BLM can ‘remedy racism’ - that will take generations. But surely it’s far better in the public domain than some sort of underground wink and funny handshake?
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
as I said earlier, I think this iteration has run its course. But do you not think it’s made a difference?

no one in their right mind would think BLM can ‘remedy racism’ - that will take generations. But surely it’s far better in the public domain than some sort of underground wink and funny handshake?
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He’s using satire
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
as I said earlier, I think this iteration has run its course. But do you not think it’s made a difference?

no one in their right mind would think BLM can ‘remedy racism’ - that will take generations. But surely it’s far better in the public domain than some sort of underground wink and funny handshake?
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He was being sarcastic and I do think BLM can help remedy racism. It won't be overnight and won't be because of token gestures that have been diverted from their original meaningful contexts and from which corporations will run a mile at the slightest hint of inconvenience.
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
as I said earlier, I think this iteration has run its course. But do you not think it’s made a difference?

no one in their right mind would think BLM can ‘remedy racism’ - that will take generations. But surely it’s far better in the public domain than some sort of underground wink and funny handshake?
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There was a great reply I saw to a telegraph tweet promoting an article with a headline “England players taking the knee has proven to be too divisive”. The reply said “Yes, it neatly divides fans into “racists” and “non-racists” “.

The campaign would have worked a lot better if it had the full backing of those in government. Without it’s a bit toothless and it’s incredibly disappointing when you have a Home Secretary taking the side of the racists.
 
Cascarino said:
He’s using satire
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neverdie said:
He was being sarcastic and I do think BLM can help remedy racism. It won't be overnight and won't be because of token gestures that have been diverted from their original meaningful contexts and from which corporations will run a mile at the slightest hint of inconvenience.
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obviously went over my head…

Pexbo said:
There was a great reply I saw to a telegraph tweet promoting an article with a headline “England players taking the knee has proven to be too divisive”. The reply said “Yes, it neatly divides fans into “racists” and “non-racists” “.

The campaign would have worked a lot better if it had the full backing of those in government. Without it’s a bit toothless and it’s incredibly disappointing when you have a Home Secretary taking the side of the racists.
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in fairness the ‘movement’ has proved to be difficult for government, as it was political, even though we would all agree on the underlying principle - but when the founder of BLM also wants to defund the police, even if that’s American based, it makes it difficult. UK govt. can’t come out and support that.

what should have happened, is that organisations in the UK and government come out and build on the principle. Although we know that’s logistically difficult in this country.
 
africanspur said:
So you think all EU leaders have an intricate knowledge of the political systems and workings of all the other European/EU countries?
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Yes. The big players do. It’s not their job todo the research. But it’s their job to be informed. We’re not all that complicated. We don’t have the complexity of Spain, Italy or France. 8 hours during your Head of State induction probably gets you there. No refresher courses. We still talk about ruling the waves ffs.
 
Pexbo said:
Personally I too prefer it when social justice campaigns never gain the public’s attention and go “main stream”. If BLM had stayed a bit under the radar and their cause was largely ignored, I would be all in.

When a campaign like that comes to the attention of some of the biggest lawmakers in the world, you know it’s gone too far and has likely failed.
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I think that’s bunkum. They don’t go mainstream enough. they haven’t gone beyond the cost gesture yet.

If Kane came out and declared he’s going to kneel at the start of every game for the rest of his career, as he knows equality will not exist before he retires…. That’s a statement.

It needs to get bigger, bolder and braver. Not smaller.

Do Note That I am talking to a very narrow anti-racist action and not the wider BLM global movement. Appreciate you may have been talking to the latter.
 
The Corinthian said:
Priti Patel: Fans have right to boo England team taking the knee, it’s ‘gesture politics’
The Home Secretary did not condemn England fans who had booed footballers for taking the knee.


Priti Patel backs England fans booing the team taking the knee at Euro 2020, labelling the act “gesture politics”.
The Home Secretary does not support what she calls a “choice for them” after Gareth Southgate’s side faced jeers from a minority of fans at their first match of the tournament.
It comes after a Number 10 spokesman said that the Prime Minister wants the public to “cheer them on, not boo” at the tournament and explicitly supported those who decide to take part in the protest.

However, Ms Patel took a different stance to Boris Johnson, telling GB News: “I just don’t support people participating in that type of gesture, gesture politics, to a certain extent, as well.”

She claimed the Black Lives Matter protests last summer had a “devastating” impact on policing as she criticised the toppling of the statue of 17th century slave trader Edward Colston in Bristol.

https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/fo...nd-take-knee-euro-2021-euro-2021-b940499.html

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She's such an odious woman.
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Never mind the obvious 'she's talking out of her ass' comments - England players, staff and manager have all said it is to highlight racial inequality and less specifically to do with the organisation. When they have said why they're doing it then nobody has the right to say otherwise. I could post the James O'Brien clip again but he hits the nail on the head - once they said the reason for it, people who boo have (a) chosen to ignore it and (b) chosen to, by association, against the awareness that they're trying to raise.

Ironically enough the same people will have been cheering like deranged lunatics when Sterling scored no doubt!
 
Jericholyte2 said:
Never mind the obvious 'she's talking out of her ass' comments - England players, staff and manager have all said it is to highlight racial inequality and less specifically to do with the organisation. When they have said why they're doing it then nobody has the right to say otherwise. I could post the James O'Brien clip again but he hits the nail on the head - once they said the reason for it, people who boo have (a) chosen to ignore it and (b) chosen to, by association, against the awareness that they're trying to raise.

Ironically enough the same people will have been cheering like deranged lunatics when Sterling scored no doubt!
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I’m certainly not taking the side of anyone booing the team (as I said earlier) - however you assume that fans have read into the scenario of why the players are doing it. That’s probably one of the issues here. Many won’t. There’s an assumption here that fans are aware of the why.

without trying to stereotype (oh feck it)… if these fans were actually sat down and were taken through the why - there would be significantly less booing (I would hope).
 
I think it was becoming a thing to do and losing some impact. That was until some racist England fans started booing the team doing it which has given meaning to the action and means they should continue through the whole tournament despite the boos.
 





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FireballXL5 said:
It's just business as usual as far as the Met is concerned.
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Definitely. I mean how can anyone really and truly trust them.
So many failings.
So many inquiries.
So many instances of totally unacceptable behaviours and assurances that lessons have been learnt.
Institutional racism.
Institutional corruption. The list goes on.
The organisation is out of control and I very much doubt that anyone really believes that things will change.
They are a national disgrace.
 
Buster15 said:
Definitely. I mean how can anyone really and truly trust them.
So many failings.
So many inquiries.
So many instances of totally unacceptable behaviours and assurances that lessons have been learnt.
Institutional racism.
Institutional corruption. The list goes on.
The organisation is out of control and I very much doubt that anyone really believes that things will change.
They are a national disgrace.
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SORRY ITS THE PHONE
 
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