Westminster Politics

Buster15 said:
And from what I understand, a fair number were from postal voting.
And yet, Nigel Farage is campaigning for the abolition of postal voting.
Now I acknowledge that this all stems from the Trump side where he was trying to convince everyone of voter fraud in the last US election.
But it is also true that he wants this stopped in the UK as well.
Minority governments always do well in a low turnout.
There are much more important things to resolve that postal voting.
But we all know what Farage is capable of.
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FPTP is crap. It needs reforming so Labour and The Tories can both be discarded in the dustbin of history where they belong.
 
Maticmaker said:
I think you will find that they are, at this time, but agreed it won't last forever.

I do not have to justify my vote and you have no idea what it was/will be!

Having a stable housing market benefits anyone seeking to purchase, wanting low taxes are a given, nobody likes paying them, although of course we have to do, i.e. the only certainties in life are 'death and taxes'; regulations that work are needed, ensuring everyone adheres is the trick, of course ....spurious regulations don't work for that reason, they can be avoided.
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They are absolutely not represent the majority. I doubt I need to post voting figures to prove it, do I?

If you didn't vote for them, why spend so much time excusing their behaviour?
 
Maticmaker said:
Don't know if you realise it but these are the normal standards, for Politicians, and have been for years and yes its all the electorates fault.
In truth we get the politicians we deserve in the UK, in other countries its not so clear cut!
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Having low standards for politicians is normal, absolutely. What I’d say is those standards have regressed significantly in the last decade and people just move with the tide, not recognising as it moves further and further away. Which I would hold directly responsible for that continued decline, which has very real world impacts. I find it strange how people can acknowledge their own role in that, but somehow not hold themselves accountable for the damage it does.
 
villain said:


The British electorate are apathetic to politicians who negligently let thousands of innocent people die.
To put it plainly, we're fecked.
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Jesus wept. Those are some deeply unpleasant and alarmingly dim people. I want to think they're bots or trolls. Please say they are.
 
Maticmaker said:
Not really, see things as they are, not how we would like them to be.
Generally we get the politicians we deserve, we elect them and give them our vote, but never really trust them... its an awful job but someone has to do it!
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How about you don't vote for blatantly dishonest politicians and get a different set of politicians you deserve?

Voting is literally voting for how you would like things to be.
 
Flying high said:
They are absolutely not represent the majority. I doubt I need to post voting figures to prove it, do I?

If you didn't vote for them, why spend so much time excusing their behaviour?
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Last time I looked Tories had an 18% lead over Labour (nearest party)
I didn't say who I voted for and I am not excusing anything, just telling it as it is!

Brwned said:
Having low standards for politicians is normal, absolutely. What I’d say is those standards have regressed significantly in the last decade and people just move with the tide, not recognising as it moves further and further away. Which I would hold directly responsible for that continued decline, which has very real world impacts. I find it strange how people can acknowledge their own role in that, but somehow not hold themselves accountable for the damage it does.
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Its not so much decline in standards of politicians, its mostly that we now know more about them, the 24/7 news cycle has seen to that; how many senior politicians have actually resigned their parliamentary seat, (not just any ministerial office they hold) over principled matters in the last 20 years as compared to the previous 20 years?
Most of the Tory Remainers were drummed out of the party by Boris, with one or two notable exceptions, as far as I could remember none of the Labour shadow cabinet resigned over Brexit, one way of the other!

B20 said:
How about you don't vote for blatantly dishonest politicians and get a different set of politicians you deserve?

Voting is literally voting for how you would like things to be.
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Because no politician says "look here, vote for me I am a blatant liar" . We often brand people, especially politicians, as liars when they don't do what we want, or don't agree with us, or take actions we oppose. Being 'economical with the truth' and/or avoiding the question are favourite past time of many politicians, and it isn't always lying, in fact in many political circles its looked on as an asset/skill, much prized by Party leaders when selecting Ministers.
Also people tend to vote for a party, rather than for a candidate, admittedly sometimes that is not the case, but with the majority it is; people often vote to prevent someone/party gaining office, rather than for the ideals of the one they actually cast their vote for especially in bye-elections.

Politics is a 'murky' business and a bit like diplomacy it can be as 'War, by alternative means' and like Wars the first victim is often the truth!
You wont find many 'Mother Teresa's' in politics.
 
Maticmaker said:
Last time I looked Tories had an 18% lead over Labour (nearest party)
I didn't say who I voted for and I am not excusing anything, just telling it as it is!
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Are you just trolling?

You know full well that the tories got less than 50% of the vote, from a 2/3s turnout.
 
Flying high said:
Are you just trolling?

You know full well that the tories got less than 50% of the vote, from a 2/3s turnout.
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I am not trolling, just looking at latest evidence available from pollsters which shows the Tory's some 18% ahead of the next major party which is Labour, with the rest virtually no where.
So I am led to believe, these are the latest figures, not from something occurring nearly two years ago...or perhaps you believe the Brexit vote taken now would still be the same as before?
 
Maticmaker said:
I am not trolling, just looking at latest evidence available from pollsters which shows the Tory's some 18% ahead of the next major party which is Labour, with the rest virtually no where.
So I am led to believe, these are the latest figures, not from something occurring nearly two years ago...or perhaps you believe the Brexit vote taken now would still be the same as before?
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If you aren't trolling and genuinely believe the sort of crap in the quote below, then I have to be more direct than normal forum etiquette and question your ability to gather and assess information.

Maticmaker said:
Because no politician says "look here, vote for me I am a blatant liar" . We often brand people, especially politicians, as liars when they don't do what we want, or don't agree with us, or take actions we oppose. Being 'economical with the truth' and/or avoiding the question are favourite past time of many politicians, and it isn't always lying, in fact in many political circles its looked on as an asset/skill, much prized by Party leaders when selecting Ministers.
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You simply can't be using this as a defence for someone who is widely accepted, from all sides, to be one of the most prolific liars in public life. He, and quite a few around him, have passed well beyond the realm of being 'economical with the truth'. For them, 'twisting statistics', has given way to blatant lying. It wasn't always like this. It doesn't have to be like this. It's worse for us all when it's like this. The tories are the worst offenders by a very long way.

And no, the tories still do not represent the majority of the UK. Not even in the last local elections where their fixed game gave them even more power.
 


Imagine being accused of lying and then less than a day later, lying again on television over something that is easy to check.

I think I'll stick with psychopath.
 
Maticmaker said:
I am not trolling, just looking at latest evidence available from pollsters which shows the Tory's some 18% ahead of the next major party which is Labour, with the rest virtually no where.
So I am led to believe, these are the latest figures, not from something occurring nearly two years ago...or perhaps you believe the Brexit vote taken now would still be the same as before?
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That's not the population though. If you didn't vote last time and don't know who you'll vote for this time you won't show on the party polling. It's essentially active voters.

The actual votes received is the only way to measure it and the Tories are no where near a majority representation. No party ever is really.
 
Maticmaker said:
Its not so much decline in standards of politicians, its mostly that we now know more about them, the 24/7 news cycle has seen to that; how many senior politicians have actually resigned their parliamentary seat, (not just any ministerial office they hold) over principled matters in the last 20 years as compared to the previous 20 years?
Most of the Tory Remainers were drummed out of the party by Boris, with one or two notable exceptions, as far as I could remember none of the Labour shadow cabinet resigned over Brexit, one way of the other!
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Can you clarify the question? You seem to be using “resignations over principled matters” as some kind of proxy for the standards of politicians, but I don’t quite see how...

Or did you misunderstand what I was saying? I wasn’t talking about politicians holding themselves accountable, I was talking about people like you holding yourself accountable for the choices and attitude that allows those politicians to be there and act that way. The perspective you put forward contributes to the standard of politicians we get, you say we get who we deserve, but you don’t take any personal responsibility for your own role in that.

Why is it ok to play a role in having bad politicians run the country, when you know those bad politicians have real world impacts on people’s lives? Why not raise your expectations, your demands, and in doing so raise the standard they are held to and ultimately provide? Instead you seem content to do the opposite. Accept low standards and tell other people that’s just the way it is, encouraging other people to lower their own standards too. How can that not create a worse society?
 
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Flying high said:
If you aren't trolling and genuinely believe the sort of crap in the quote below, then I have to be more direct than normal forum etiquette and question your ability to gather and assess information.
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Now whose trolling ?
You don't like what you hear so its 'crap' is it? I'm glad I don't gather and assess information like you apparently do, you seem to only listen to the bits you like and what you agree with, everything else is rubbish and anyone who disagrees with you is apparently unable to function properly...and then you wonder why we have the kind of politician we have?

Flying high said:
The tories are the worst offenders by a very long way.
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Oh please for heavens sake, so no other politician is at times two-faced, lies, tells half truths and avoids answering questions?
What about Angela Rayner? Someone actually I admire, her personal back story is impressive.

A few months back Dominic Cummings was 'Dominic the Devil' spewing lies on behalf of his master, would not know the truth if it hit him in the face according to Angela, this week Angela is lauding him, he was 'St.Dominic the Blessed' speaking the truth, every sentence he utters is gospel.
Give us a break please!

Smores said:
That's not the population though
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No, but its the representation of the population being polled just now and the majority of such people are backing the Tories...for now
I don't know your politics, but it sounds to me like you are taking the view that is exactly the kind of see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil being practiced by Labour, that caused the problem in the red wall in the first place.
If you are not a Labour person then I apologise.

Brwned said:
Can you clarify the question? You seem to be using “resignations over principled matters” as some kind of proxy for the standards of politicians, but I don’t quite see how...
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Caught in a lie to Parliament was 'principled' matter' and called for the resignation of the Minister concerned, it some times was applied to non-ministerial members, who usually just had to make their apologies to the house, but still could retain their seat... until the next election anyway!
It was generally seen as someone taking responsibility for their personal(or their Departments) actions/behaviour and resigning. It was at one time seen as a ''touchstone' element in that it set a tone for the rest of the Country for people in powerful positions to emulate. Unfortunately 'dodging the bullet' became the norm both inside and outside parliament and 'principled resignations' of this kind have dropped considerably.Whether it was politicians following the outside world, or the outside world taking its cue from politicians its hard to say, no doubt someone somewhere may well have studied this in detail and could give you a better answer.

Brwned said:
I was talking about people like you holding yourself accountable for the choices and attitude that allows those politicians to be there and act that way.
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I do hold myself accountable, I have always voted in every election since I was old enough to vote, I am now 75 (so that is a lot of elections and bye-elections) and have voted against candidates (even of my party of choice) when I know someone to be a 'carpet-bagger' type politician. Unfortunately a lot of my fellow citizens, probably the majority don't, and that is the point I was making, people don't vote, by and large for the individual person they vote for the party!

Brwned said:
Why is it ok to play a role in having bad politicians run the country, when you know those bad politicians have real world impacts on people’s lives? Why not raise your expectations, your demands, and in doing so raise the standard they are held to and ultimately provide? Instead you seem content to do the opposite. Accept low standards and tell other people that’s just the way it is, encouraging other people to lower their own standards too. How can that not create a worse society?
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Its not OK and that s not what I am doing. I am pointing out that the status-quo does accept this situation, because, and by now I am sick of repeating most people the MAJORITY vote for the party and not the people running it, which is why Boris at the moment is getting a freebie, once the Tory's ditch him, he'll be gone from public life...probably turn up on game shows like "Would I lie to you".
 
Maticmaker said:
Now whose trolling ?
You don't like what you hear so its 'crap' is it? I'm glad I don't gather and assess information like you apparently do, you seem to only listen to the bits you like and what you agree with, everything else is rubbish and anyone who disagrees with you is apparently unable to function properly...and then you wonder why we have the kind of politician we have?
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My whole point was to rail against your assertion that everyone is so biased in politics that they can only see the faults of the other side. This is a bogus argument and what I was calling crap. Funnily enough, you didn't seem to grasp that.

Maticmaker said:
Oh please for heavens sake, so no other politician is at times two-faced, lies, tells half truths and avoids answering questions?
What about Angela Rayner? Someone actually I admire, her personal back story is impressive.

A few months back Dominic Cummings was 'Dominic the Devil' spewing lies on behalf of his master, would not know the truth if it hit him in the face according to Angela, this week Angela is lauding him, he was 'St.Dominic the Blessed' speaking the truth, every sentence he utters is gospel.
Give us a break please!
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What's the point of this? Really? Of course other politicians do those things. Are you seriously trying to argue that the tories aren't the worst offenders?
 
Flying high said:
My whole point was to rail against your assertion that everyone is so biased in politics that they can only see the faults of the other side. This is a bogus argument and what I was calling crap. Funnily enough, you didn't seem to grasp that.
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Sorry don't accept that its not what I said at all as well you know, I said We often brand people, especially politicians, as liars when they don't do what we want, or don't agree with us, or take actions we oppose.... but clearly you do not make the distinct. It's not bogus its true, and I suspect its you are the one failing to grasp the point.

Flying high said:
What's the point of this? Really? Of course other politicians do those things. Are you seriously trying to argue that the tories aren't the worst offenders?
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I am not arguing anything I am stating a reality, all politicians can be caught out in their statements as with Angela Raynor, she was 'demonising' Cummings one moment for his comments, then hailing him as the source of all truth the next.
 
Maticmaker said:
Sorry don't accept that its not what I said at all as well you know, I said We often brand people, especially politicians, as liars when they don't do what we want, or don't agree with us, or take actions we oppose.... but clearly you do not make the distinct. It's not bogus its true, and I suspect its you are the one failing to grasp the point.


I am not arguing anything I am stating a reality, all politicians can be caught out in their statements as with Angela Raynor, she was 'demonising' Cummings one moment for his comments, then hailing him as the source of all truth the next.
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Alright I'm out. If you're going to spend time arguing like that then there's no point in engaging with you.

Reluctantly adding to ignore so I don't make the mistake of trying to have a conversation with you again. This isn't the first time you have tried to take a conversation down stupid street to avoid having to back up your baseless 'facts'.
 
Adisa said:
These people think we are mugs. It's an insult.
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That is exactly how I feel. I do not accept that it is perfectly fine for our PM to consistently lie and get away with it.
So, we have the PM adviser on standards investigate the PM and come up with such a vague conclusion.
We still don't know how much the Tory donor paid. And we don't know whether Boris actually paid in full; and from what source.
What a pathetic investigation.
Still, as far as most are concerned, who cares.
 
Pexbo said:
Wow, that means the other 11 people that still watch that will definitely vote Lib Dem again
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Viewing figures exceeded 4m as recently as last year. Should probably be cancelled for the sole reason that it birthed bumbling BJ, mind.
 
Flying high said:
Reluctantly adding to ignore
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Sorry you feel like that, as I said I am not arguing anything I am stating my opinion on the situation as I find it.
You are the one arguing and call my views crap! All you have to do its disagree, that's the end of it. However something tells me you prefer the 'echo-chamber' scenario, Que Sera Sera!
 
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