Westminster Politics

Pexbo said:
It really depends on what the true function of the house is. If it turns out that Cummings parents actually don’t live there most of the time and like Cummings use it as a second home then it changes the context fairly drastically and once again Cummings would have been caught out lying to the country as he claimed he went to stay in an out building of his fathers farm. It’s an abjectly false statement if he actually went to stay at his own second home.
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Okay so its another lie in a bag of lies. He and BJ dont care about that obviously otherwise something would be done already.

But in terms of breaking lockdown rules, does it matter? The trip itself broke them regardless of who owned the property no?
 
arnie_ni said:
Okay so its another lie in a bag of lies. He and BJ dont care about that obviously otherwise something would be done already.

But in terms of breaking lockdown rules, does it matter? The trip itself broke them regardless of who owned the property no?
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What's important is that he sat in the garden of 10 Downing Street and told lie after lie to the nation with the blessing of the PM who still backs him despite his lying becoming a national laughing stock.
 
I still don't understand why they didn't even pretend to fire and later rehire him

we already knew the upper classes rarely if ever face consequences for their actions, but they do sometimes go through the charade for a minute or two

the degeneration of the "norms" that allegedly make government possible is welcome though, the more apparent to more people it is that our political culture and politicians themselves are corrupt and broken the more chance of something being done about it
 
It's not so much the gravity (or otherwise) of what Cummings did but the accumulated effect of lie upon lie from him and his employers that angers people. They are untrustworthy, at the least, and it's cost and is costing lives.
 
Grinner said:
What's important is that he sat in the garden of 10 Downing Street and told lie after lie to the nation with the blessing of the PM who still backs him despite his lying becoming a national laughing stock.
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Thats my point, what does another lie matter to them?
 
Silva said:
I still don't understand why they didn't even pretend to fire and later rehire him

we already knew the upper classes rarely if ever face consequences for their actions, but they do sometimes go through the charade for a minute or two

the degeneration of the "norms" that allegedly make government possible is welcome though, the more apparent to more people it is that our political culture and politicians themselves are corrupt and broken the more chance of something being done about it
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They should have just said ok he fecked up, apologised and tried to move on.
 
The constant lies and lack of integrity is astounding, even more so when you consider as it stands he's kept his job (and no doubt substantial salary). If it had just been taken on the chin and an apology offered then I'd of thought fair enough move on but the fact its lie after lie should make his position untenable. Leadership, honesty, respect, integrity, selflessness.. all non existent and all qualities which should resonate from our MPs and public servants.
 
Silva said:
I still don't understand why they didn't even pretend to fire and later rehire him

we already knew the upper classes rarely if ever face consequences for their actions, but they do sometimes go through the charade for a minute or two

the degeneration of the "norms" that allegedly make government possible is welcome though, the more apparent to more people it is that our political culture and politicians themselves are corrupt and broken the more chance of something being done about it
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That's the most mental thing for me. If they'd just made a token apology, had him publicly resign but keep him on doing the same work in the background until they rehire him sometime down the line, this entire story would have died within a few hours.

It's the complete refusal to even admit he's done anything wrong and the insane lengths they're going to to double down on it as more and more damning facts emerge that's keeping this story burning.
 
vodrake said:
That's the most mental thing for me. If they'd just made a token apology, had him publicly resign but keep him on doing the same work in the background until they rehire him sometime down the line, this entire story would have died within a few hours.

It's the complete refusal to even admit he's done anything wrong and the insane lengths they're going to to double down on it as more and more damning facts emerge that's keeping this story burning.
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This! They’ve done this to themselves, they’re the most amateur government we have ever had.
 
Also...specific anger at Cummings might be caused by the recent stories of wealthy people surreptitiously heading for their second homes while the mass of us were told to stay indoors.
 
Fluctuation0161 said:
It is not a "mobs anger". It is the general public outraged by the disdain shown for them by their government. In this case the media are actually aligned with public opinion.

If the government are not following their own advice and lying to cover up their indiscretions, the public are less likely to follow advice and trust what they are being told.

If Cummings was sacked immediately and lies had not been spun to sign the hole deeper then trust could have been restored.
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You don't believe that surely? Are you telling me you could trust Boris if he had sacked Cummings?
 
UnrelatedPsuedo said:
@ivaldo

I don’t think it’s a case of Cummings and his flight of fancy being important.

It crossed a line. People have let so much go. This was a slam dunk, open and shut case for the government.

When that was taken away, everything else comes back out. Care homes, PPE, shutting down scientists, and and and.

I feel for you and your personal situation. But please know that it’s not just yapping dogs looking for a head on a pike and a story. The people holding the government to account on something that seems trivial to you.... Is still someone fighting for you and your child.

How can you trust this government to look after you and your at risk child, when they’ve got so much wrong? They’ve got almost EVERYTHING wrong. They cannot be allowed to lie.

Refusing to let Boris silence journalists and not letting him obfuscate anything prickly is helpful to all.
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I understand all that, I really do, but there's a time and place. There is a tipping point where it becomes counter productive, and I believe we reached that today. I'm all for holding the government accountable; it's a pillar of our society, but this was a significant announcement that will see profound changes in the way we all live, and is introduces new risks that need to be planned for. There was only a limited amount of time afforded to the press and the public to ask questions. Those questions shouldve been about COVID-19.

Allowing one press conference to pass where the focus wasn't almost entirely on the governments defence of Cummings wouldn't have invalidated all the pressure that had gone before, nor would it have stopped the press from continuing that pressure in the coming weeks.

I perhaps understand more than most the betrayal of this government. That said, no amount of accountability can justify missing out on vital information to CEVs and CVs. At best, this is misguided.
 
Pexbo said:
The alternative is the Government getting off scot free once again and the normalisation of their awful behaviour continues. This time the original offence might be relatively minor, next time it could be more serious and they once again take this gaslighting approach. I’ve got absolutely no problem with the press sustaining their pressure on this, it’s the most important function of a free press and it would have been a travesty if they did what Johnson and Cummings were hoping they would do and just shrugged and moved on.
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No it isn't. The alternative is the pressure is resumed tomorrow, and the next day, and the next day. They have innumerable opportunities to pile the pressure on. As I've said, I wholeheartedly agree the government should be held accountable and challenged when they fail, and they've been failing on such a regular basis that it's near daily anyway. You're preaching to the choir mate. But giving half an hour up to focus on some incredibly important changes in guidance that will greatly effect the extremely vulnerable, and indeed those merely looking to return to work, isn't going to invalidate all the pressure that's come before and the pressure that will come.
 
ivaldo said:
No it isn't. The alternative is the pressure is resumed tomorrow, and the next day, and the next day. They have innumerable opportunities to pile the pressure on. As I've said, I wholeheartedly agree the government should be held accountable and challenged when they fail, and they've been failing on such a regular basis that it's near daily anyway. You're preaching to the choir mate. But giving half an hour up to focus on some incredibly important changes in guidance that will greatly effect the extremely vulnerable, and indeed those merely looking to return to work, isn't going to invalidate all the pressure that's come before and the pressure that will come.
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Those are valid arguments, I feel, but the question remains: if not now, when (in terms of directly questioning the actions of government officials)? Their fleeting public appearances are stage-managed; Parliament is a bear-pit of bias; television interviews are routinely declined in case they receive tough questions; and PMQs seems designed to last as long as a Napalm Death ringtone...
 
ivaldo said:
No it isn't. The alternative is the pressure is resumed tomorrow, and the next day, and the next day. They have innumerable opportunities to pile the pressure on. As I've said, I wholeheartedly agree the government should be held accountable and challenged when they fail, and they've been failing on such a regular basis that it's near daily anyway. You're preaching to the choir mate. But giving half an hour up to focus on some incredibly important changes in guidance that will greatly effect the extremely vulnerable, and indeed those merely looking to return to work, isn't going to invalidate all the pressure that's come before and the pressure that will come.
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I think the issue with Cummings is that it's eroded trust in the Government's Public Health messaging. This is why its foolhardy for the Government to press on with it unresolved, its why the public is fixated on it and thus why its fair for the press to push ahead with asking about it.

The Cummings issue isn't something unrelated to the public health issue. Its not like he was sleeping with his secretary. It was a clear breach of both the spirit of the guidance, and of the public duty that the Government claims we all owe each other. And yet the Government have approved his actions. This makes the entire notion of Government guidance muddy - is it something we follow to the letter for the public good, or are they just rough guidelines to be interpreted differently for each situation? There's a valid argument to be made for both sides from a public health perspective, but in the UK the expectation had always been to follow it to the letter - until the Cummings incident. Now its unclear.

This lack of clarity is going to undermine all their changes in guidance from now on, which is why this situation needs bottoming out now, before new guidance is implemented. Its either followed to the letter, or you just follow the general gist of it. The Government still say its the former, but their actions over Cummings is approval of the latter. Until this contradiction is resolved, it will undermine all their messages, particularly as we leave lockdown and the rules get more complicated.
 
ivaldo said:
I understand all that, I really do, but there's a time and place. There is a tipping point where it becomes counter productive, and I believe we reached that today. I'm all for holding the government accountable; it's a pillar of our society, but this was a significant announcement that will see profound changes in the way we all live, and is introduces new risks that need to be planned for. There was only a limited amount of time afforded to the press and the public to ask questions. Those questions shouldve been about COVID-19.

Allowing one press conference to pass where the focus wasn't almost entirely on the governments defence of Cummings wouldn't have invalidated all the pressure that had gone before, nor would it have stopped the press from continuing that pressure in the coming weeks.

I perhaps understand more than most the betrayal of this government. That said, no amount of accountability can justify missing out on vital information to CEVs and CVs. At best, this is misguided.
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Whereas my stance is : This is the line. We as a public shouldn’t be accepting of any change to lockdown until you give us faith in your governance.

Thousands of people are dead because of Boris Johnson & Dominic Cummings. They are dead because of this government. Not because of Covid19. They have thousands of avoidable deaths on their hands. People need to arrest this ‘moving on’ message. We shouldn’t.

If we let them move past this unchecked, your child is less safe and more likely to die. That’s the reality these people have given us.

They should not be talking about changing anything until they have a public that’s willing to accept and implement. They don’t have that. Nowhere near. But they carry on regardless. They will blame future deaths on the people, when it’s their fault.
 
ivaldo said:
You don't believe that surely? Are you telling me you could trust Boris if he had sacked Cummings?
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Think of trust in government as a scale from 0 - 100. Not as a binary option.

It would increase my trust in the public health messaging being based on fact. And that the recent lockdown easing is not being fast tracked just to drown out the Cummings story at the expense of public health!
 
Grenfell Disaster.
"Let's move on"
Russian Report.
"Let's move on"
Jennifer Arcuri.
"Let's move on"
Highest deaths rate in the world (per million)
"Let's move on"
Inadequate PPE
"Let's move on"
Dominic Cummings.
"Let's move on"
 
Fluctuation0161 said:
Grenfell Disaster.
"Let's move on"
Russian Report.
"Let's move on"
Jennifer Arcuri.
"Let's move on"
Highest deaths rate in the world (per million)
"Let's move on"
Inadequate PPE
"Let's move on"
Dominic Cummings.
"Let's move on"
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Could add:

Inadequate equipment for 'our brave and valued hero soldiers'
Inadequate wages for 'our brave and valued hero healthcare workers'

And there are countless other examples.
 
SteveJ said:
Also...specific anger at Cummings might be caused by the recent stories of wealthy people surreptitiously heading for their second homes while the mass of us were told to stay indoors.
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Good point....

Did the Government let ' them ' know what was coming so giving ' them ' all a chance to round up the family and go , or was it just coincidence that the Queen was in Windsor, Charles in Balmoral ( ?? well, Scotland ) Gordon Ramsey and all his family in Cornwall, even the Beckhams and three of the children in Oxfordshire....
 
SteveJ said:
Could add:

Inadequate equipment for 'our brave and valued hero soldiers'
Inadequate wages for 'our brave and valued hero healthcare workers'

And there are countless other examples.
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True. I assume there is a tipping point when people will stop allowing themselves to be moved on without resolution!
 


Are 42% of those surveyed living under a rock?

Good figures for a new opposition leader.
 
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SteveJ said:
Also...specific anger at Cummings might be caused by the recent stories of wealthy people surreptitiously heading for their second homes while the mass of us were told to stay indoors.
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It is an over generalisation to class all people with a second home as wealthy.

Lots of people have a second home which is used for rental.
While many choose to invest that way but have a mortgage.

It is nothing special to have one.
 
Buster15 said:
It is an over generalisation to class all people with a second home as wealthy.

Lots of people have a second home which is used for rental.
While many choose to invest that way but have a mortgage.

It is nothing special to have one.
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There was a thread on here a while ago where the topic of second homes was brought up quite a bit. Suffice to say that the loudest views on here were basically "feck anyone with a second home".
 
TheReligion said:
Communist Cafe
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It is certainly no secret that the caf is very left-leaning. Personally I consider myself a slightly left leaning libertarian, and I would far rather vote Labour than Tory, and even for me this place can become a bit too much of a left-wing echo chamber at times.
 
Walrus said:
It is certainly no secret that the caf is very left-leaning. Personally I consider myself a slightly left leaning libertarian, and I would far rather vote Labour than Tory, and even for me this place can become a bit too much of a left-wing echo chamber at times.
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Absolutely. I'm centre left, and a Labour voter, but this place has certainly become very extremist in its views with some posters quite forceful and abusive to any difference of opinion.
 
TheReligion said:
Absolutely. I'm centre left, and a Labour voter, but this place has certainly become very extremist in its views with some posters quite forceful and abusive to any difference of opinion.
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I don't find it extreme, in general and I'd say it's been drifting right for years. However, you may well consider me to be a rabid Bolshevik relative to yourself if we discussed politics.
 
TheReligion said:
Absolutely. I'm centre left, and a Labour voter, but this place has certainly become very extremist in its views with some posters quite forceful and abusive to any difference of opinion.
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Reality is in the last few years, the nature of politics has made people “entrenched” in their positions that if you sit in what was previously a sensible middle ground, you will get lambasted from both sides.
 
rpitroda said:
Reality is in the last few years, the nature of politics has made people “entrenched” in their positions that if you sit in what was previously a sensible middle ground, you will get lambasted from both sides.
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If the middle ground drifts in one direction you wake up one day finding yourself unexpectedly extreme left.
 
Fingeredmouse said:
I don't find it extreme, in general and I'd say it's been drifting right for years. However, you may well consider me to be a rabid Bolshevik relative to yourself if we discussed politics.
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Interesting you feel it's drifted right. I mean I feel society has shifted to the right, especially when you look at the UK and Brexit and the UK and Trump. That said this forum has been left for some time and lately quite resistant to any discussion away from that mindset.
 
rpitroda said:
Reality is in the last few years, the nature of politics has made people “entrenched” in their positions that if you sit in what was previously a sensible middle ground, you will get lambasted from both sides.
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Very much agree with this. The tribalism and partisanship in politics has (in my view) increased dramatically over the past few years. It almost resembles football teams now, where people are less concerned with who is right and wrong, but more concerned with just winning and/or their "rivals" losing.

Fingeredmouse said:
If the middle ground drifts in one direction you wake up one day finding yourself unexpectedly extreme left.
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Whilst true, I still think that as far as the Caf goes, it is pretty heavily left leaning, even by "traditional" standards. Actually thinking about it, it may just be a very vocal minority of extreme left wingers who give that impression. I mind, since I often broadly agree with their views, but there is definitely a tendency on here to shut down debate and pile on against anyone who goes against the flow. Once or twice I have tried to point out elements of hypocrisy in heated discussions, and typically just get lumped in with the right-wingers or branded a "closet Tory" or some other nonsense.
 
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