That's not true.
We will never win the league with Paul Pogba in the team
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That's not true.
So which world class players can play in any position?
It's both. Sometimes he tries to be too fancy other times he just struggles to get involved and cope with the intensity of the game. Either way I'd call it not turning up. Genuinely trying too hard was often Rooney who tried to be everywhere and do everything. Pogba is not that player and never will be. He sort of coasts at his own pace and at times the tougher teams make that approach look poor and swat it away. That's what he needs to work at.
Maybe in FIFA but definitely not in real world I guess.
The statement isn't true but there's a point in there somewhere. Messi can play attacking midfielder brilliantly. De Bruyne is great both as an AM and a CM. Scholes was magnificent both as a SS or a CM or even deeper later on. Gerrard excelled as a CM and second striker. And so on. Of course they too struggled the odd time with certain roles but the logic stands.
I do agree to an extent that Jose doesn't help Pogba by sticking him in a midfield two. At the same time, Lingard as an AM provides loads of defensive cover and not having a Pirlo next to him shouldn't incapacitate Pogba. That's the point. Yes I'm sure surrounding him with Pirlo and Marchisio is a dream for him. But he's still good enough to have a good game next to Lingard. And certainly good enough not to look terrible in comparison to him in a big game.
Pogba's potential is great but the player who can do more things well won't necessarily be the better player. There are plenty of CMs who could do more things than Paul Scholes but he's still the best midfielder I've seen in English football and one of the two best across the board.
Xavi didn't score many either. You'd probably say Pogba's potential is greater merely because he's got more facets to his game. But xavis application of what excelled at and the mental aspects of his game were phenomenal.
I find Pogba's skillset to be quite incredible too. But there's a lot more to producing performances than skillset and on paper potential.
The OP deserves an award of some sorts. Kinda made my day!
Hadn't felt so many emotions while reading something in a long while.
Kudos to @noodlehair for daring to be different. Extremely wrong, but still, different.
Love it! We want more!
Maybe you have an opinion about Sit Alex Ferguson that'd be as interestING to read as this one?
Hadn't felt so many emotions while reading something in a long while.
Kudos to @noodlehair for daring to be different. Extremely wrong, but still, different.
Love it! We want more!
Maybe you have an opinion about Sit Alex Ferguson that'd be as interestING to read as this one?
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I think Pogba is a quality footballer and personally one of my two favourite United players. But i think this thread is part a reaction to his performances in tight games and part a reaction to the pedestal United fans have put him on. Which is also highlighted by the reaction to the thread. I don't see why we cant rate him and enjoy watching him thoroughly but also acknowledge that he's not there yet ?
I agree. Free of the expectations, he'd be judges more fairly. My own judgement is he's very far from being the player we want him to be. Too many bad decisions when the easier, more effective option is staring him in the face. Too often tries to be spectacular instead of effective. He needs to get more consistent. And not get lost in big games (yea the formation is more to blame there than the player). I couldn't help noticing Abdoulaye Doucure against Chelsea, like I've been all season, and wondering why Pogba can't be as effective and consistent. He' after all the much more talented footballer!
Every player is different, coach should be doing more to bring the best out of players. Pogba in a 2 man midfield works against smaller teams where we are expected to dominate and will have possession almost all the time, even against bigger team it might work at home but against Spurs away it's a suicide. Spurs are one of the hardest working team and they like City play in a compact zone. They press and hunt in numbers to win the ball and players play close to each other. They are very well trained team.
Can Pogba do better than he did against Spurs? Obviously. He was very poor so he could do lot better.
Messi is not a rule, he is exception to everything. KdB can play as CM but only for Pep side where they hunt in numbers and win the ball back and dominate every single game. They average more than 70% possession. Can KdB play in midfield 2 for a pragmatic side, coached by Jose in a big away game? I don't think so as defensive duties are more than attacking one, we don't press, we drop deep and wait for the moment to win the ball back. He should be tracking runners and all that, it's not possible.
Also like I said every player is different with different strengths and weaknesses. Xavi and Iniesta were 2 of the best midfielders in the last 20 years. Iniesta was very good playing as LW/LWF, played at very good level. Can Xavi do the same? No. It's not as he doesn't have attributes to do that.
Suarez and Lewandwoski are one of the best 9s playing, Suarez also was a menace playing as LW for Liverpool, can Lewandowski play that? No.
There are plenty of wingers who prefers on playing on one side as it maximises their strength based on playing style.
End of the day, someone like Pogba has lot of strengths and weaknesses also like defensive positioning, tacking. It's upto coach to cover up the weaknesses and play to player's strengths.
Everton away is one of the fixture we always struggled in the past, Jose played 3 man midfield and Everton couldn't handle Pogba with all his flair, trickery.
The way Jose sets up the team, it's not possible for Pogba to play in midfield 2 away from home against best teams. He can only do that against smaller teams.
Messi is the best player in the world and arguably the greatest player of all time. And like @roonster09 said he's an exception to the rule.
Did Gerrard and Scholes really excell in the SS position? To excell in a position you must perform in said position for a period of time. Gerrard and Scholes were poor for England on a regular basis too. I think you're scraping the barrel here..
De Bruyne is playing for a team that has the majority of possession in most games. Guardiola teams are renowned for hunting in packs hence winning the ball back quickly. Playing in a midfield two next to Fernandinho who is very quick and mobile compared to Matic is also a big advantage. Like the above poster said, put KDB next to a immobile Matic in a pragmatic set up where the back line is deep in comparison to the high line of City without the mobile Fernandinho and the Spurs midfield would still run riot.
Not having Pirlo doesn't incapacitate Pogba at all. You could use the same criteria to critique Pirlo who needs a extra man in midfield to showcase his fantastic ability as the legendary regista that we now know he is. The team formation has to be set to benefit your better players and a 3 man midfield not only benefited Pogba but Pirlo aswell.
It's like Rooney said yesterday during the Watford v Chelsea game. That himself and Tevez did the defensive work and absolved Ronaldo from do it ,so he could stay fresh to concentrate on the scoring and creating goals. He also said we should do the same with Pogba. I think many would agree with that.
Pogba didn't play well against Spurs no question about that, but let's not get carried away and dismiss his season thus far due to a couple of bad games. He's been good for most of the season considering he missed 10 games through injury and suspension.
Maybe it's more a case of Pirlo and Vidal being the truly great players...?
Pogba is very good though, but only in a proper mid 3.
As soon as you see that mid 2 line-up against even decent opposition, you know how the game will go.
Pogba is very good though, but only in a proper mid 3.
As soon as you see that mid 2 line-up against even decent opposition, you know how the game will go.
I couldn't believe that statement about playing anywhere. Yes, every player can play everywhere to a certain level but certainly not WC ffs.
Honestly, there are grown ass people who come up with this utter drivel is just soul destroying.
It wasn't a midfielder, it wasn't an no.10, its Paul Pogba!
Pogba isn't good enough defensively as a CM and isn't nimble enough as No.10. How on earth did we break transfer record for someone like that? What were Mourinho thinking. Must have been mad.
To play him in a midfield 3, 4-3-3 we would need at least 2 world class attacker up front, which we currently only have 1 in Sanches. In current selections, 4-3-3 would only make us solid in midfield but we will lack in penetration. It will be more solid against top 6 but less penetrative against teams that parked the bus.
Enter Gareth Bale/similar player this summer then we are talking about 4-3-3
Pogba isn't good enough defensively as a CM and isn't nimble enough as No.10. How on earth did we break transfer record for someone like that? What were Mourinho thinking. Must have been mad.
To play him in a midfield 3, 4-3-3 we would need at least 2 world class attacker up front, which we currently only have 1 in Sanches. In current selections, 4-3-3 would only make us solid in midfield but we will lack in penetration. It will be more solid against top 6 but less penetrative against teams that parked the bus.
Enter Gareth Bale/similar player this summer then we are talking about 4-3-3
I agree with you about Pogba being a player 'between positions', but I disagree that we need to do anything much more than play a proper mid 3...
Herrera----Matic----Pogba
Martial-----Rom-----Sanchez
Would be fine for now, and buy one top quality Mid in the Summer.
I think every player likes to play in his preferred position. The act of the manager is to identify the potential and use the players accordingly. When he knows that Andreas Periera is playing at Valencia in a position that doesn't get him anywhere in United, he mentioned so but Pogba always likes to play in a more advance position, he is a creator and not someone who runs the midfield as a deep lying creator. Pogba needs freedom in a more advance position to showcase his abilities. Matic is great in possession but without the ball, he's kind of a buzz kill. Herrera has recently lost his form and the rest like Fellaini aren't even in contention. I'm happy about Mctominay getting his chances as i see huge potential.
We need another fast moving midfielder and we definitely need to play a mid-3.
lol. you maybe on to something.
well said!
Generally world class players don't/can't play in any position. They get so good at one position or a couple at most and that's what makes them world class.
If Pogba doesn't nail down a specific position and become as good as he can be then he's not world class. He'll just be outstanding talent with the wrong application. Not necessarily his fault because of Mourinho and Deschamps playing a system that doesn't suit him nor put him in his favoured position but still.
You know for so long i have said that Pogba is our best player in terms of ability and sharpness. He is clever and picks up movement faster than any other player. He had a woeful game against Spurs because he was attacked as soon as he got the ball every time which he did not expect and Spurs pressed deep into our half and kept our midfield wary throughout the game. If you check on Pogba's movement, he was all over the pitch and did all he could but Spurs held the ball and did good for most of the game. Without much possession as a team, Pogba is not one single person we can blame. We did bad as a team and we probably didn't get the setup right against them.
It's not like we didn't try. We confused their full backs by playing Martial and Sanchez on right and left respectively. We tried with the in form Lingard in the middle and expected Pogba to join the party as the game moved along but what he or any of our players could do was move freely in possession because Spurs kept pushing and pressing. We panicked and kept going backwards and sideways which probably boosted their confidence. We lost the game because of the mentality issue. It could've been one of our worst defeats if Kane had managed to do better.
Currently Herrera cant offer anything in attack except skyhigh shooting. Martial too inconsistent and Lukaku need to be spoonfed on plate. We will suffer to break any defenses teams.
A top quality Mid in summer who need to be more attack oriented than defense. I feel that someone similar to Pogba would do.
He had a bad game. But I believe the reason he had a bad game is because he wanted to win so much he tried to do too much and kept getting out of position. You saw Jose having a right go at him on the touchline telling him that exact thing, and dropping him for the next game to let him know he's not indespensible and needs to play for the team and within his role. Hopefully Pogba will learn from that and improve.
I do know this, I feel much more confident about our chances of winning a game when Pogba is in the team rather than out of it.
I do know this, I feel much more confident about our chances of winning a game when Pogba is in the team rather than out of it.
I expected to read this opinion piece and immediately dismiss it but sadly find it very truthful. Pogba can be a brilliant player but mostly isn't. The opinion seems to be "build the team around Pogba", but how can you do this when he lacks consistency and often goes missing or is unable to make a telling difference. He seems to lack the necessary tactical, defensive and hardworking qualities. I am more interested in what is best for the team than what is best for Pogba. He doesn't show enough defensive ability and hasn't been great going forward either. I think he is capable of being more than he is currently showing.
Yes. But do that you have to give him the best possible chance to thrive, something I don't think has happened. He's been directly involved in 15 goals in 25 games or something similar, he's criminally underrated by some people.
If it is at all possible, you should give Pogba the best conditions to thrive. The question is, is what's best for him best for the team? In a three man midfield, I think we lack attacking quality.
Saying all of this, I still expect every player to work hard, defensively. I don't think he can be given a free role. He hasn't show me that he is a good enough attacking player for that role.
The thread is not completely out of place. This is Pogba's second season and he is yet to show his true potential on the field. Especially against the big teams. He has had some bad luck with injuries and his red card this season. He looks a bit easy on the field which might not be the case but it does looks like it.
The Champions league and the remaining games in the season are enough time for Pogba to show how good he is. Let's hope he does or this thread is going to be the top thread on the website.
The Champions league and the remaining games in the season are enough time for Pogba to show how good he is. Let's hope he does or this thread is going to be the top thread on the website.
Most world class players are that good that they force the manager's hand when it comes to their favoured position, because it's worth making whatever changes or sacrifices you need to elsewhere in the team to get the best out of them.
But then, most world class players have a much better application to games than Pogba has, which is also part of what allows them to reach that level. Pogba isn't even comparable in that sense. No one is going to create a position in a team for someone who can't even be bothered to follow simple instructions and often spends entire games just pratting around.
Do people seriously believe that Mourinho hasn't figured out what Pogba's strengths are when he's playing well, and what does and doesn't suit him? Mourinho who coaches and watches the players every single day and actually seems to be quite good at figuring out what they are and aren't good at. It's much more likely that Mourinho has looked at the players he has and just decided Pogba doesn't do enough to justify making changes to suit him.
Playing Pogba further forward means dropping one of the front four. In amongst that you have Rashford, Lingard, Sanchez, Lukaku, Martial and Mata...all hard working and very good pplayers who when they are in the team offer something in their own right. All players who show better application to a game than Pogba does a lot of the time. If you're going to sideline one or more of them, it probably isn't going to be for someone who doesn't follow instructions and can't even put a run of games together where their attitude is right.
Maybe if Pogba showed he is willing to try and do the job asked of him in games, Jose might be more willing to make changes to accommodate him better? At the moment there really is no point when you already know he isn't willing to listen unless it suits him, and doesn't seem to have much idea about what actually suits him either.
How many times Pogba go on MC to avoid the big guns? Anybody knows?
Yeah. He's definitely capable of showing more. He's capable of being one of the best players in the league and our best outfield player.
I don't like this idea though that it is somehow the rest of the team and the manager's responsibility to learn how to play with Paul Pogba. It is about what best suits the TEAM...and what best suits the team is to not have one of the supposed best players slacking off or arsing around doing whatever he wants. Until he shows he can cut that out, what on earth is the point in making changes to suit him? It will only be counter productive and basically validate him to carry on as he is.
Apart from anything else, there is no position or role in a team that allows a player to be as irresponsible as Pogba is positionally. It doesn't matter if it's a three, four, two man midfield. Pogba will still be in there, in a position, in order to do a job for the team. Him sticking to that will still be important, and it still wont be what he wants to be doing, because what he wants to be doing is just going where he wants on the pitch and doing what he wants.
The only position or role on a football pitch that allows the kind of positional freedom Pogba likes to play with is a no10, but players who play in this role, are invariably players who do so because they will work hard, and use their own positional intelligence and decision making to best suit the TEAM. This is a pretty much perfect description of exactly what Paul Pogba DOESN'T do. Sometimes he doesn't even try to do it.
It's not that playing three in the middle against better sides isn't a good idea...it's that doing that still puts the exact same requirement on Pogba to show more maturity. It doesn't absolve him of that responsibility. He is either a luxury player or an important part of the team. He can't be both. Maybe his mission is to prove that he can be, but if it is he is failing at it.
There are two separate issues for me which people are attempting to roll into one. You have the issue of needing more in the middle against good teams, and you have the issue of not being able to passenger one of your players dicking about against a team who's players are good enough to take advantage. Sorting out one doesn't solve the other.
A few weeks back I argued with the OP of this thread on how we need to play Pogba in a midfield three to get the best out of him. I argued how it was his best position & we need to move towards that to get the best out of him. His argument was that the problem was not a midfield two or three but the general inconsistency and brainless-ness in Pogba's game which is the main hindrance in him not realizing his immense potential. His lack of maturity is more to blame than his position on the field.
Having seen him play in both the positions and thought about it, I think I agree with the OP's points. On one hand we say that he is a world class midfielder, some claim that he is arguably the best, then in the same breath we go on to claim that he needs two perfect midfield foils to get the best out of him. One of them should be a top holding midfield with excellent passing range and another one should be a top box to box player with a tremendous engine and midfield nous. What about Pogba's contribution then? A world class midfielder shouldn't only be able to operate in the ideal conditions created for him. He should be able to contribute towards making the midfield better. Pogba does well in games where the opposition sits back and lets him play, but as soon as the opposition comes at us his game crumbles and our midfield is left exposed. There is too much immaturity and flashiness in his game.
It's not an affront to say that unless he steps up into the player everyone thinks he is, we are not going to win the league.
Having seen him play in both the positions and thought about it, I think I agree with the OP's points. On one hand we say that he is a world class midfielder, some claim that he is arguably the best, then in the same breath we go on to claim that he needs two perfect midfield foils to get the best out of him. One of them should be a top holding midfield with excellent passing range and another one should be a top box to box player with a tremendous engine and midfield nous. What about Pogba's contribution then? A world class midfielder shouldn't only be able to operate in the ideal conditions created for him. He should be able to contribute towards making the midfield better. Pogba does well in games where the opposition sits back and lets him play, but as soon as the opposition comes at us his game crumbles and our midfield is left exposed. There is too much immaturity and flashiness in his game.
It's not an affront to say that unless he steps up into the player everyone thinks he is, we are not going to win the league.
The win the league thing was just because I saw the title of the Lukaku thread and copied it in fairness.
But yeah the main point is valid as far as I'm concerned. People want to have their cake and eat it here. They want Pogba the luxury player and Pogba the world class match winner at the same time. It's not going to happen. He has no chance of being the later unless he's prepared to ditch the former.
Criticising Pogba's performance also removes the ability to just lazily blame everything on Mourinho, which is also a no no for some.
But yeah the main point is valid as far as I'm concerned. People want to have their cake and eat it here. They want Pogba the luxury player and Pogba the world class match winner at the same time. It's not going to happen. He has no chance of being the later unless he's prepared to ditch the former.
Criticising Pogba's performance also removes the ability to just lazily blame everything on Mourinho, which is also a no no for some.
Excellent post, exactly the things I was going to write.
It's worrying when Rooney is seeing what so many posters fail to. You play to your best players' strengths, you don't ask them to play with one hand tied behind their back. Thats a job for others.
Has everyone forget how pogba dominate and crushes Arsenal, Everton, West Ham.and Stoke this season?
I'm quite happy to critique any player who doesn't perform well for this club.
I'm also quite happy to praise them also.
Pogba on times has been great this season. He has also been abysmal. Same as a lot of our players, Lingard is in the form of his life but he is still missing the odd chance here and there. You take the good with the bad, this is football after all.
I just cannot defend people on here claiming pogba is the complete world class player when he isn't. He is not even close to playing at his full potential, yet alone being branded as one of the best in the world.
I get players will have bad games here and there, but Pogba's outing against spurs was one of the worst central midfield performances I've seen in a long time.
I;m not jumping on any bandwagon of hating pogba, it's just my observation. we paid 90 million for Pogba to come in and run the game from midfield for us. after 18 months, whether its tactics or poor coaching or the players lack of understanding of how to play from deep, Pogba does not seem able to play in a midfield 2 and influence the game as he should be. He has the talent too, but it isn't working. Perhaps moving to a midfield 3 will help him, or using him as the #10 and playing Herrera/Matic in the 2. We cant leave Matic that exposed in other games that's for sure
15 pages and this spoof thread is still alive 
Next up: Barca will never win against Stoke with Messi?
Next up: Barca will never win against Stoke with Messi?
Of course its the best thing for the team. He's our most talented player and young so will be around for many years hopefully. I'm not sure why you think we lack attacking quality either, unless you don't rate Martial, Rashford, Lukaku, Sanchez, Mata and Lingard... More than enough fire power there for a front 3 to play in front of a midfield 3.
It's all about striking a balance within the team, and for all the players Jose has brought in so far I don't think he's close to gettin that balance. Hopefully he'll sort that out this summer.
I don't buy this narrative that Pogba doesn't work hard either, sure he gets out of position defensively but he's a talented football because of what he can do with the ball, not what he can do without it. Give him the best possible chance to shine and I'm sure the tem will shine too.
15 pages and this spoof thread is still alive
Next up: Barca will never win against Stoke with Messi?
Unfortunately I don't think its a spoof
Giggs:
This thread is still going?
Fair play noodle, that's a lot of fish for one piece of bait.
Fair play noodle, that's a lot of fish for one piece of bait.
Is it though? One is a professional footballer, one of the best in the premier league era. Others are just regular posters.
It's only normal that most of the opinions in here aren't informed.
Re the Pogba situation, fully agree with the notion that we should play him to his strengths, he would have been immense in a setup like city's in the KDB position.
Like others said here, I think that he would flourish in a midfield three. It's not a coincidence that one of his best games was against Everton, in the same position that he played at Juve where everyone and their dog could see his world class talent.
Spent the game playing with 10 men because of him today. Now we're losing because he can't be bothered to jump for a header.
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Hes clearly injured, he had to pull out of the warm up. I have no idea why Jose doesn't pull him.
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