Spot onThis is the most frustrating thing of all, Jose defends him from here to the hills but never seems to have go at him about his effort. All of this position nonsense, is just that, nonsense. While the left of a 3 was primarily his position at Juve he was never allowed to forget how to get into his defensive position. He used to cover for the left hand side all the time, he used to cover Pirlo when needed just like Vidal. Heck, I've seen Allegri use him almost anywhere in midfield and he always had the discipline.
Sorry can I clarify what you mean by this last part?
This is complete hyperbole
1) I don't think anyone has said he was the reason Juve won all those trophies, but it would be foolish to think he wasn't a big part or he didn't play extremely well for them. It's not revisionist history at all.
2) What great player didn't have world class players around him? Messi? Ronaldo? Xavi? Hell, look at the team KDB has around him. I think a lot of posters here forget football is a team game. "Player XYZ is playing poorly because he isn't good enough" is lazy analysis. Teammates and tactics play a huge role.
I'm not trying to pick on you, but a lot of these arguments are straw man.
What I meant is that I can understand Mourinho buying Sanchez, as he is his sort of player, with terrific workrate, whilst Pogba is a luxury player, who isn't, & doesn't track back to help the team, but instead goes missing, particularly in big games or ones that are intense. Could never understand why Mourinho bought him. After nearly two seasons it is becoming obvious that the two don't work well together, & it is best getting rid of one of them. As the manager seems to be here for awhile, I suggest selling Pogba & obtaining a top player or two in the Mourinho mould.
Pogba and Sanchez are the only two outfield world class players in the team.
Cost half of Coutinho's fee.When has Pogba been world class for us in the 18 months he has been. The way these two words get thrown out in conversations in ridiculous. He was certainly a world class price that is for sure.
Pogba and Sanchez are the only two outfield world class players in the team.
Sanchez has proven his world class ability, will have to prove it at United. I think he will.Based on what?
Sanchez has proven himself one of the best players in the league foor a few years running. Sanchez works harder than anyone else on the pitch.
Pogba turns up to do backflicks when we go a goal up against Stoke, and often doesn't even bother trying to do the job he's in the team for.
It's all well and good saying things like this but it doesn't make them true when the player in question does feck all to back it up.
What a brillant post!1) It is revisionist I'm afraid. If you go back to when we signed him you will see a very different picture painted based on the player Pogba "could be", to the oone now being portrayed...there was a general consensus he wasn't worth £89m based on the player he currently was when we signed him. What we have now is people pretending he was something he wasn't for Juventus, who in most cases probably never even watched him play for them outside of the odd game. I remember @jojojo describing him as a "player who looks better on the youtube highlights than he does in a game"...which, actually, sounds exactly like Paul Pogba to me. I remember watching him for France in the Euros and trying to figure out what it was he was actually supposed to be doing, due to him so often seemingly doing absolutely nothing at all. It isn't a problem that has magically cropped up because nasty Jose Mourinho is playing him 3m out of position, or doesn't put enough good midfielders next to him for him to not have to worry about actually doing some midfielding. This magicall position in midfield that doesn't come with the responsibility of being a good midfielder DOES NOT EXIST.
2) Suarez at Liverpool? Alonso at Liverpool. Scholes at United at times. Sanchez at Arsenal. Bale at Spurs. Modric at Spurs...shall I go on? ...Even good players stick out if they have worse players around them, because they are good players. There are countless examples right now even just in the PL. They don't go into a shell or stop doing their jobs just because their team mates are closer to Charlie Adams than they are to Zinedine Zidane. That is literally what makes them good players. It's a very simple concept. A footballer is good or great, because he is better at football than other footballers...not because he is better than them only if the rest of his team are so good it doesn't actually matter if he is better than them or not. This is a rule that has been invented just to try and pretend Paul Pogba is something he has done nothing at all for us to show he is.
3) You know another important thing that makes a great player great...is having a determination and responsibility to make themselves great, and to recognise the hard work and maturity required to do that. Is this Paul Pogba?
They will be straw arguments when Pogba starts proving they are. They do not become straw arguments just because people are willing to invent arguments to make it impossible for Pogba playing badly to ever be Pogba's fault.
Cost half of Coutinho's fee.
I would say it was a world class fee, but for different reasons than you.
To say that Pogba is just a YouTube player is ridiculous. Pogba is so much more than flicks and tricks. He can literally do anything on a football pitch
However, the problem is, at the moment for one reason or another, he is not doing. Seems to be playing his own game regardless of what he has been asked to do.
Question is, how long do we persist before we decide that a brilliant individual who plays as an individual is worthless?
I think every player likes to play in his preferred position. The act of the manager is to identify the potential and use the players accordingly. When he knows that Andreas Periera is playing at Valencia in a position that doesn't get him anywhere in United, he mentioned so but Pogba always likes to play in a more advance position, he is a creator and not someone who runs the midfield as a deep lying creator. Pogba needs freedom in a more advance position to showcase his abilities. Matic is great in possession but without the ball, he's kind of a buzz kill. Herrera has recently lost his form and the rest like Fellaini aren't even in contention. I'm happy about Mctominay getting his chances as i see huge potential.
We need another fast moving midfielder and we definitely need to play a mid-3.
Juventus. France. Many glimpses of it here, including this season, but not sustained. Then no player has looked world class (except De Gea) for this club since Ferguson retired. So I don't look that much into it.You say in the post lower down he is world class, or will be. What evidence is there to show for that comment. How he performed once at Stoke is hardly a reason to call someone world class. Put it this way, do you honestly believe Pogba would be in a Poch/Guardiola/Pep team. All three play intense pressing football & expect all their players to do so, not go missing & trot back when defending like Pogba does. They wouldn't put up with him. The only manager who would really indulge him would be Wenger.
Sanchez has proven his world class ability, will have to prove it at United. I think he will.
Pogba is world class. Or if he isn't, he will be. Which game was it he came on, ran out wide right, went by a couple of players and assisted Lingard? I don't see many other midfielders in world football doing that kind of thing. People are so quick to forget all of those very good games he's had as soon as he has a bad one.
Sanchez has proven his world class ability, will have to prove it at United. I think he will.
Pogba is world class. Or if he isn't, he will be. Which game was it he came on, ran out wide right, went by a couple of players and assisted Lingard? I don't see many other midfielders in world football doing that kind of thing. People are so quick to forget all of those very good games he's had as soon as he has a bad one.
My immediate thought with Pogba is always PSG. I wouldn't put it past Jose and Woodward to go after Verratti and try to goad them into retaliating by going after Pogba like they did with Neymar/Barca.I must be the only opposition player that rates Pogba, but if you talking of offloading him who the hell is gonna pay his wages?
My immediate thought with Pogba is always PSG. I wouldn't put it past Jose and Woodward to go after Verratti and try to goad them into retaliating by going after Pogba like they did with Neymar/Barca.
Sanchez has proven he is one of the best players in the league by being one of the best players in the league consistently, for 3 years. He also works his socks off every time he plays.
Has Pogba done this? I don't forget all of the good things he does and his ability isn't in question. Ability doesn't automatically make you a world class player. Playing like a world class player does. Having the attitude of a world class player does. Pogba does not do this. There's no evidence at the moment to suggest Pogba is going to.
The whole argument about his position is a mess too. You have people on here at the same time moaning at Jose for Sanchez playing on the left (his preferred role at his former club) because it apparently disrupts other players in the team. Even though martial is the only person who's position has changed at all. Moving Pogba would mean fecking around with literally every midfield and forward player's role apart from Lukaku.
I'm sick of the excuses. He's not been good enough and that's the bottom line.
Noods and Graeme Souness have gotten a lot of flak for their opinion on him and its looking like they've been right about him.
The midfield 2 excuse is absolute nonsense. We all know he's better in a 3 but that's not a good enough reason to be the cause of his recent abject performances, we've seen him have world class performances in a 2 man midfield.
His problem is his mentality and immaturity, he's only concerned in doing what he's good at and doesn't seek to improve what he's poor at. In all my time watching United I've yet to see a CM as bad as him off the ball, he's totally clueless and doesn't seem to be getting any better there.
People can talk about talent all they want but all top players are talented. Players like Keane, Gerrard, Scholes etc had that fire in them to lead teams to victories. When the going gets tough, Pogba goes into his shell.
Then why on earth would you want him to keep being played there? Jesus christ.
I've seen an interview with De Bruyne on some freestyler's YouTube channel. The thing that that stood out was KDB saying how he is a nice, even shy person at times, but when he enters the pitch, something in him switches and his mentality changes completely - trying to win always and not aiming for anything less, despite how much effort it would require.Pogba should be up there with De Bruyne.
But he’s not sadly. He doesn’t work hard enough and I can’t stand this bollocks of shaking hands with opposition players at the start of the second half. He needs to start acting and playing more seriously.
De Bruynes attacking stats are impressive. But more so the ground he covers every game is impressive too.
Midfield players mature with age. Pogba is excellent with the things you can’t teach... I.e technique etc. he’s poor at the things he can easily learn...I.e work rate and positioning and we need patience as nobody will sell the ideal midfielder at their pique. We need to grow them just as others do. Micheal carrick then and now should provide a great template as to why JM was willing to spend so much on Pogba. I still remember the bashing carrick got on these boards when we bought him from Tottenham.When has Pogba been world class for us in the 18 months he has been. The way these two words get thrown out in conversations in ridiculous. He was certainly a world class price that is for sure.
Right now he isn't even better than Martial.Pogba and Sanchez are the only two outfield world class players in the team.
He has been world class for France? When exactly?Juventus. France. Many glimpses of it here, including this season, but not sustained. Then no player has looked world class (except De Gea) for this club since Ferguson retired. So I don't look that much into it.
In order for players to be good, they need a solid team. That hasn't existed for the past five years. Which is why the only player who looks world class for us has the most individual job in the game (GK).
He's having a poor run of form, but I still maintain he's the best player in the team. His biggest problem is his tendency to overplay. He'll cut that out as he progresses.Right now he isn't even better than Martial.
Part of a French side that reached a major final. He was played in a deeper role for France though.He has been world class for France? When exactly?
Sounds shite. Give me Pogbas ability and physical traits and I'll make Jonjo Shelvey wish the pitch would swallow him up.
Gerrard was even better further forward but you put him in a 2 and he won't perform like that. He'll work his socks off, chase every ball and wont look lost.Pogba will be fine when Mourinho changes his tactics to suit his best player. Anyone suggesting he should be sold has lost their mind. A few points
1) Not saying he is at this level, but would any manager with a brain play Xavi, KDB, Silva, Iniesta, or Gerrard primarily in midfield 2? Of course, not. The same applies to Pogba. It seems Mourinho believes b/c he's big and strong he's suited for this role when it's clear he is not
2) Mourinho has a track record of being completely wrong about and/or misusing midfield players (i.e. Modric and KDB)
3) Do people really buy that Pogba all of sudden became a shit player after playing so well with Juve? I'm not buying it.
Sure he's had sub-par performances but pulling the plug on Pogba would be a huge mistake. The major issue for me is the inability of the manager to get the best of Pogba. Let's not pretend Pogba is the only United player who falls into this category...
It's individual insanity to pretend decent performances to be world class ones. He was nothing special at the euros. Plenty of not so great performers have made it to finals of tournaments. Especially ones as low on quality as Euro 2016.Part of a French side that reached a major final. He was played in a deeper role for France though.
There are people here who want to pretend Pogba was never any good. It's mass insanity.
Few people deny his talent or claim he "was never any good". But there's place between that and pretending he is world class for United or France.Pogba has never been any good. Or if he has, he was decent but never been world class.
Ok. Im done with this thread. People who say others didn't watch him at Juve, I wonder if those people ever watched him once in Italy (or even here). He has plenty of flaws but to deny his talent is delusional.
Sanchez is clearly our best outfield player.Pogba did play well for his role at the Euros. The problem was that he wasn't able to attack like he could precisely because of the role he had.
The hyperbole in this thread is crazy. He's our best outfield player and acting like he isn't just ignores every other player's bad form at some parts of the season. People are capitalizing on one run of bad form.
