Eriksen is not a midfielder.
We will never win the league with Paul Pogba in the team
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Eriksen is not a midfielder.
Scholes actually disagreed with what you're saying. He was actually criticizing Mou for not utilizing Pogba where he shines in midfield. Fergie always liked Pogba's ability. He didn't get rid of Pogba. Pogba left because he rightly ran out of patience.
And it's not compromising to put 2 midfielders around Pogba. Juve did the same thing and they won the league and went to the CL finals.
As is often the case, @noodlehair is more in line with reality than most. Most people are too biased to assess Pogba properly.
However, this thread is slightly wide of the mark. It should be titled: 'We will never win the league with Paul Pogba as the 'best' player in the team.
In other words, the day when Pogba is the 4th (or joint 3rd at best) best player in the team (like at Juventus) is the day when United will actually be a top team.
People got so giddy about Di Maria being United's 'star man', not realising that a team with Di Maria as the best player/star man is a sub-par team by default. Same with Pogba. Most here consider him the team's best (outfield) player, but that actually isn't the hugely positive sign that they think it is.
If everyone else is beneath Pogba in a team, that means that everyone else is less consistent, less forceful, less reliable than Pogba.... so what does that say about the team's prospects?
Ultimately, he's a support cast type of player - no matter how big, eye-catching, and extravagant he may be.
However, this thread is slightly wide of the mark. It should be titled: 'We will never win the league with Paul Pogba as the 'best' player in the team.
In other words, the day when Pogba is the 4th (or joint 3rd at best) best player in the team (like at Juventus) is the day when United will actually be a top team.
People got so giddy about Di Maria being United's 'star man', not realising that a team with Di Maria as the best player/star man is a sub-par team by default. Same with Pogba. Most here consider him the team's best (outfield) player, but that actually isn't the hugely positive sign that they think it is.
If everyone else is beneath Pogba in a team, that means that everyone else is less consistent, less forceful, less reliable than Pogba.... so what does that say about the team's prospects?
Ultimately, he's a support cast type of player - no matter how big, eye-catching, and extravagant he may be.
The difference being Ronaldo was only 18/19 when oppo fans were saying this. Pogba is 24 years old, Ronaldo had already won the Ballon d'or by that age, putting in world class performances week in week out.
From what we have seen so far I'd have to agree that Pogba is not the saviour we all hoped he would be. He's brilliant on his day, against the lesser teams, but that is not enough when you are supposedly the star player of the club. We shouldn't be having these debates about his best position or what players he needs around him to make him shine, the best players shine no matter who is around them. Until now, Pogba is yet to show that he is an elite player, on a consistent basis, against the best teams. The very thing that makes a great player world class if you ask me.
He has a lot of learning/growing up to do.
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Eriksen played as a "left half" in a backward facing 4-3-3 midfield for his whole Ajax career, and some of his best games for Spurs have been in a deeper position.
In that long comment a coupe pages back, it was said that "So I'd start off by saying, he's a write off as a CM for any top games.. he'd be a liability there. Same as you'd do for say Coutinho/Ozil/Eriksen if you were looking at whether they have the attributes to play as a CM."
But Eriksen is known for his workrate in pressing and defensive contribution. What he lacks is that he pulls out of physical challenges and so can't be relied on to actually win back any balls himself. But his constant defensive work accommodates the recovery of the ball by fellow midfielders (not that I'd ever play him in a midfield two, mind, which is what Pogba is having to deal with)
As an outsider what I'm missing from Pogba at the moment, regardless of his position, is that spark of brilliance. You know with Pogba you're not getting a payer who will control a match for the full 90, but a player who will have 5 magical moments a game that will turn the match in your favour. I'm not seeing any of that, even really on days that I've seen United play better
What is the link with Pogba's individual performances?
Pogba is actually fantastic, he really is. His big downfall is his lack of discipline. This was always evident.
What Mourinho did wrong imho is to give him too much leeway from the beginning. His bad habits should have been addressed the moment we signed him.
If Mourinho can arrest this, then we'll see a great Pogba. However attitude is the key to every success.
On the other hand, Mourinho also needs to make up his mind, is he or isn't he going to build the team around him to ensure you get the best out of him, or what?
I dunno, I would think if you spend £89M, you better have a clear idea of how to get the best out of that acquisition. Otherwise, we're constantly wasting money here..
What Mourinho did wrong imho is to give him too much leeway from the beginning. His bad habits should have been addressed the moment we signed him.
If Mourinho can arrest this, then we'll see a great Pogba. However attitude is the key to every success.
On the other hand, Mourinho also needs to make up his mind, is he or isn't he going to build the team around him to ensure you get the best out of him, or what?
I dunno, I would think if you spend £89M, you better have a clear idea of how to get the best out of that acquisition. Otherwise, we're constantly wasting money here..
I'm told that Pogba can't play effectively as part of a CM duo, but Eriksen also doesn't usually play in a CM duo for Spurs (that's normally Dier or Wanyama + Dembele or Winks). He's an attacking midfielder, just like I'm told is Pogba's best role. So isn't a comparison between Eriksen and Pogba a valid comparison?
What's ironic is that during the Pogba transfer saga the OP would come into his thread ranting about how deluded we were for believing that Pogba might join us, because he was too good for us or something.
Probably the most accurate summary of the Pobga situation so far.
Of course he has certain aspects in his game that still need improving he's still 24. Zidane was still at Bordeaux at the same age.
Rival fans were still slating Ronaldo even when he was on fire for us. Antonio Valencia is absolutely derided by many on Arsenal mania for example. Many on their think he's an absolute joke of a player and think people who rate him are deluded. Using rival fans as a metric to prove a point on Pogba is very naive.
Right on the money, the truth is somewhere in between with the op's post.
Pogba is a good time luxury player, not a player you can pin all your hopes on. He's like David Beckham in that respect who was exceptional with his passing ability and work rate, yet you wouldn't create a team around him.
With a well oiled team, he will make the difference and make the football look even more beautiful, but expecting him to carry the team is another thing.
This guy loves himself too much to be that self sacrificial to be doing whats needed to pick the rest of the team up. That means he will be hesitant to get his hands dirty and remain disciplined enough to keep to the basics in playing simple passes to calm the situation down when we are under the cosh, all that stuff is beneath him in his mind. He'd rather throw a strop and lose the plot completely, then roll up his sleeves and up his game when things are not going his way in a game.
If we are trailing he'd still try to take on the whole team by himself or try a fancy trick in our own half as if we were leading 3-0. This mainly comes down to lack of maturity and a narcissistic ego which has been heavy indulged in by his fan club and the club itself. Never will I forget the face emoticons of his on the billboards for the Liverpool game, which sent out all the wrong messages for a club of our size.
He's fortunate not to be playing alongside Roy Keane, who'd have made him cut out doing certain things at the wrong times and helped keep his feet on the ground in not believing that everything is about him. He'd have told him it's not the fecking Pogba show, this is Manchester Utd, a club that existed before you and will remain thereafter.
Save your party tricks and one man team heroic runs into the box, for when we are in a comfortable situation or when there no one else in a better position to play the ball into. In the meantime focus on improving your positional awareness and timing your runs so you are not leaving a hole in midfield which leads to the defense being completely exposed.
It will be a valid comparison when Pogba actually plays regularly in his favoured position. Eriksen hasn't won diddly squat yet for Spurs and he may never win anything for the club. In comparison Pogba already has many titles domestically and European success to show for his efforts playing in high pressure rised environments at Juve and currently with us.
I know he’s underperforming lately I remember when people on here were saying
“ we’re gonna be fine when pogba is back”
“ we need him so badly”
“ we’re worse without him”
“ can he appeal his red and still play against city”
“ we may of beat city with pogba”
We will always be a better team with pogba starting than if he’s not. For me its about finding his best position! You dont spend 89million to have to him sit and screen the back 4 IMO.
“ we’re gonna be fine when pogba is back”
“ we need him so badly”
“ we’re worse without him”
“ can he appeal his red and still play against city”
“ we may of beat city with pogba”
We will always be a better team with pogba starting than if he’s not. For me its about finding his best position! You dont spend 89million to have to him sit and screen the back 4 IMO.
He doesn't try enough though, and I think that's an accusation you can very easily level at him. Even in the games he's played well in this season, a lot of them he has also shown a lack of basic responsibility. Against Stoke he kept losing the ball and then just standing there. Against Everton he was infuriating in the first half because he just wasn't doing the most basic things.
Every so often he will try for maybe a few games in a row (which usually coincides with him coincidentally putting in solid performances), but that really isn't good enough. When you look at our other players who maybe don't play in their preferred roles, or haven't learnt how best to play for the team, the very least you can say of them is they will try to do the job they are there to do, every single time. Rashford for me has gotten too big for his boots this season, he also doesn't look comfortable at times as a wide left player, but evey single game he plays, he is giving his full effort to make it work. Mentality IS a big part of what makes or doesn't make a player.
And we have people saying that Pogba is our best player, or is "the best CM in the PL bar none" etc...but then we have you saying (and I agree with you), that actually, you need a better CM in midield than Pogba, just to get Pogba to be effective. While there may be truth in that, it doesnt say much for how good Pogba actually is, if he needs better players than him around him just to play well. Pretty much any player will look better if you have someone better than them effectively doing half of their job for them.
And yeah, different roles require different skills and responsibilities, but what actual evidence is there that Pogba would be good enough in his perfect role? What relevance is it when we don't have the players to play him there and have an effective team anyway? It again comes back to whether you are asking Paul Pogba to prove he can play in your team, or whether you are asking the team to learn to play with Paul Pogba.
And if you're going to effectivelly change the role of every attacking and midfieeld player, and spend a load of money on a "better" CMM than Pogba, you kind of have to be sure Pogba once you do that, is going to be good enough for it to be worthwhile. I haven't seen any evidence at all of that. Even at Juve he was by all accounts on the peripheral of games more often than not. When I have watched him play for France or Juventus, his performances have not been entirely different to the performances he puts in for United.
Ronaldo the 18 year old maybe. Ronaldo in his last few years was recognised as the best player in the league, because that's what he was. Pogba isn't recognised in the same way because he's nowhere near that level. It's nt people's bias against United. People on here hate Liverpool and City but most would recognise who their good players are, because they are the players who consistently play well in games. Pogba doesn't.
The thread title and opening point is misleading in fairness as it was just a reaction/play to the Lukaku thread which had the same title.
Why is this excuse always used when we lose? Statistics clearly show we are constantly one of the teams that run the least during games, so how are the players always either tired or lacking match fitness? This is bullshit of the highest order.
The point is that using our domestic rivals fans to prove your point is down right silly. Ronaldo was one example, I could use others who were older. Pogba some would argue has achieved even more than Ronaldo at 24. Pogba did play in Italy for a team called Juventus where he was very impressive as a youngster under Antonio Conte and Max Allegri.
Not sure how you make any kind of sensible argument that 24 year old Pogba has achieved more than 24 year old Ronaldo, but that's besides the point.
The point is that Pogba is not a player who opposition fans fear their team coming up against or who is seen as one of our best players. He's seen more as a bit of a joke. Capable of brilliance but more likely to be a no show.
Point me to when Pogba has played well consistently for Manchester United. Point me to the games where he's played badly but done everything he could to work hard and help the team?
You don't win leagues by pretending someone who can't do these things is your best player and above criticism
Looks like Jose reads the Caf.
We will never win the league with Paul Pogba...in a midfield two.
It is evident to everyone that we should ditch the 4-2-3-1 and go to a midfield 3.
Glacial Matic and erratic Pogba can hardly keep it together against mediocre teams, yet Mourinho insist on starting them against good opposition.
It is evident to everyone that we should ditch the 4-2-3-1 and go to a midfield 3.
Glacial Matic and erratic Pogba can hardly keep it together against mediocre teams, yet Mourinho insist on starting them against good opposition.
Incoming thread:
We will never beat Huddersfield with McTominay in the team
We will never beat Huddersfield with McTominay in the team
He is the boss, if he fails, he will get sacked. Unfortunately, our team is too good to fail completely to earn him a sacking, but also Jose isnt good enough to make us win big trophies yet.
Ronaldo was with us for 6 years and he was underwhelming for most of that period. Pogba in his four seasons with Juventus was even more impressive in comparison to a young Ronaldo. You obviously don't watch Italian football...
I don't care what football fans fear. Professional coaches who manage teams fear Paul Pogba. They don't sit on the Internet and read forums to see what 12 yr olds are thinking of Paul Pogba.
Point to me when Pogba has played regularly in a position which made us cough up a world record fee?
Pogba has already won multiple league titles and played in all the biggest finals in European football. His professional career didn't begin in 2016...
This post is what I took away from this thread.
Ronaldo underwhelming for most of his united career?
Come on now, let us not be ridiculous.
Cannot like this post enough!
Ronaldo in his first four seasons was very inconsistent, frustrated the hell out of many people.
Why is Pogba not deployed in a similar way to Lampard? Lampard who was one of the best midfielders around under Mourinho, was never criticised for his lack of ability in being box to box or an intricate no 10 or a defensive midfielder because they let his best attributed shine in the formation and tactics.
Never four, but in the first 2-3 he was frustrating at times. Different kind of issues though and largely what you expected for a young talented winger.
He was frustrating at times? You've been here long enough to see alot of people wanted to replace him with Aaron Lennon. There were various threads on here criticizing him like what we're seeing now with Pogba.
He was underwhelming for 3 years for sure. Pogba from 19-23 has arguably been better than Ronaldo is what I'm saying.
That's probably true but I think the op's argument is he has to kick on from there, which Ronaldo certainly did.
Pogba kicked on at Juve and was producing excellent performances as a AM. Asking a attacking player who has shown amazing flamboyance in the attacking third as a teenager to play in a two man midfield next to a tortoise is silly.
Why are you trying to make some kind of weird argument that Pogba is better than Ronaldo was at the same age? Literally no remotely sane person thinks this. Ronaldo was at Real Madrid when he was the age Pogba is now. He'd already won the Champions League, won the English Player of the year award twice in a row, spent 3+ years being one of the best two players in the world, won world player of the year. Pogba struggles most weeks to even be one of the best players in his own team.
The fee is one of the main reasons people are being so precious about him. The Paul Pogba at Juventus wasn't worth the £89m fee. THere was a debate about this on here at the time, and the consensus from those that DID watch him at Juventus was that we were paying that based on the player he COULD be. I think it was Jojojo who sais something like "he doesn't look like a midfielder to me, he looks better on youtube highlights than in the actual match"...which actually, sounds very familiar, doesn't it?
I'm not sure what your last point is supposed to prove. If his professional career did begin in 2016, it would actually make the immaturity in his game a lot more understandable.
Ronaldo was World Player of the Year at 22. He was scoring 44 goals a season.
Pogba is 24
that's like saying owen was better than Ronaldo because owen during his first few seasons at Liverpool was leas frustrating
Comparing the age forwards mature with central midfielders is nonsense.
He will improve I am sure. Give him a chance.
Why are you dignifying that with a response?
Play him in a midfield 3 and free him of defensive duties. At least that should be done away from home where we need to be tight in midfield.
At home, it doesnt matter because we usually overwhelm teams. Moreso now with Sanchez in the side.
At home, it doesnt matter because we usually overwhelm teams. Moreso now with Sanchez in the side.
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