Is he not responsible for knowing or keying his manager know if he is injured or not now either?
We will never win the league with Paul Pogba in the team
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Is he not responsible for knowing or keying his manager know if he is injured or not now either?
He might be injured, in which case his performance today would at least make sense.
In general though he has flattered to deceive since arriving back at the club. He looks so far from being the player we need and expect him to be. Whether it's down to himself, the manager or the system, something needs to change as he currently looks more likely to be a flop than a success.
In general though he has flattered to deceive since arriving back at the club. He looks so far from being the player we need and expect him to be. Whether it's down to himself, the manager or the system, something needs to change as he currently looks more likely to be a flop than a success.
Useless again.
King pogba is injured so cannot blame him. Should blame the manager for fielding him.
There was clearly something off with him today. Even on the bench after the substitution he looked un well.
He doesn't know how to play against a pressing CM in the English league. But its worse than that, he abdicates responsibility and just starts wandering aimlessly araound when things don't go his way. He is mentally a little kid.
Mourinho said he 'potentially' has all that is required as a misfielder. The key word he used, deliberately, is 'potential'. He is mid-20s, the potential is never going to happen unless he gets a brain transplant.
Before his 'value' declines to nothing, United should snap Madrid's hands off for £100m or so and buy two MEN in midfield. Pogba staying as a seldom used substitute is not good. His presence will be bad for the team. Sell now or regret it for a very long time.
And do the same with Martial. The only reason he was left on the pitch was because of Radford's absence. When Mourinho says he doesn't need another attacker he is being deliberately obtuse. He must know he needs a right winger. Sell Martial and get a decent winger.
Mourinho said he 'potentially' has all that is required as a misfielder. The key word he used, deliberately, is 'potential'. He is mid-20s, the potential is never going to happen unless he gets a brain transplant.
Before his 'value' declines to nothing, United should snap Madrid's hands off for £100m or so and buy two MEN in midfield. Pogba staying as a seldom used substitute is not good. His presence will be bad for the team. Sell now or regret it for a very long time.
And do the same with Martial. The only reason he was left on the pitch was because of Radford's absence. When Mourinho says he doesn't need another attacker he is being deliberately obtuse. He must know he needs a right winger. Sell Martial and get a decent winger.
You could tell he wasn't moving right during the warm up and it's natural for a player to want to play the game carrying a slight knock.
The problem is there will always be an excuse. First it's not his fault because he isn't played in exactly the right place. Now it's not his fault because he was allegedly injured and for some reason it isn't his responsibility to know if he is injured. Doesn't matter if it costs us a game or anything.
As much as that part is true, lets not forget the real reason for the goal, was that fool Smalling deliberately diving on the half way line to concede the free kick, just as Mourinho was trying to change things to bring of Pogba. Might have been a different game if the cheat hadn't done that.
Going back to Pogba, as others have stated he is way of being the world class player we thought we had bought, with even his manager alluding to this, & who has seemingly started to lose patience with him. Sanchez is Mourinho's new star pupil, which makes sense in a way as he is far more of a Mourinho type player than Pogba with his hard work, & have never really understood why Mourinho bought him.
Smalling and Jones were both infuriating today. They're both brain dead. There was one point Young nearly got in trouble purely because BOTH of them were too thick to move away so he could pass the ball to them....but for me neither of them are in the team if everyone is fit.
The problem with Pogba is we go as far as fiddling with the system today just to accommodate him in a role he is happier with, which in itself has only happened because he deliberately didn't do his job against Spurs...and then the result is he plays like shite, we struggle in midfield as a result and we've lost the game. Another game where Pogba has contributed more to us not winning than he has in trying to help us win.
You could make another and change "Mourinho" instead of "Paul Pogba "in the title.
He was rubbish. I'm sorry but disappearing everytime you face a team that's up for a fight just isn't acceptable. Complete liability. People are disappointed with our front 3 but they were miles better than Pogba.
Sorry can I clarify what you mean by this last part?
It's really starting to get to me now, watching Pogba. If you've seen my posts in the past then you'll know how highly I rate him. Or to be more precise, his talent. But what an absolute waste of talent he is at times.
Our coaches seem to enable his behaviour and playing like a child far too often. Hopefully Mourinho giving him a hard time at the moment is the start of Mourinho trying to get a grip of the situation. He's a million miles away from being what he should be. Juve wrapped him in cotton wool and allowed him to play like he does (which was the first problem). But now he's in the real world. He's a £90 million footballer that is expected to perform every week and, to me, he looks like he doesn't have the first clue how to. Is it the coaching? Is it Pogba's attitude?
One thing is for certain, a player of his talent, skill, athletic ability should be far, far better in the midfield 2 than he is. So I don't even want to hear that as an excuse. If people think he can only play on the left side of a 3, have no defensive responsibility and be allowed to do what he wants, then that is not a top class footballer. You're seriously undervaluing the potential he has.
Our coaches seem to enable his behaviour and playing like a child far too often. Hopefully Mourinho giving him a hard time at the moment is the start of Mourinho trying to get a grip of the situation. He's a million miles away from being what he should be. Juve wrapped him in cotton wool and allowed him to play like he does (which was the first problem). But now he's in the real world. He's a £90 million footballer that is expected to perform every week and, to me, he looks like he doesn't have the first clue how to. Is it the coaching? Is it Pogba's attitude?
One thing is for certain, a player of his talent, skill, athletic ability should be far, far better in the midfield 2 than he is. So I don't even want to hear that as an excuse. If people think he can only play on the left side of a 3, have no defensive responsibility and be allowed to do what he wants, then that is not a top class footballer. You're seriously undervaluing the potential he has.
Maybe the above statement is true. We won't win the league with Pogba because I suspect he'll be off to Madrid/Barcelona or another top team and we'll regret him leaving once he starts tearing it up elsewhere. There is an underlying problem as to why so many attacking, talented players come here and regress since Fergie left. I've had enough of it.
Completely agree, he should be dominating games from start to finish with his physicality, his ball carrying and his passing range. His attitude was what led to him leaving in the first instance, he hasn't got the fight required and the mental toughness needed to reach the heights that his talent deserves.
I have seen enough of Pogba to see that he is world-class. When he is on and when he gets that time on the ball - nobody is near him. What is wrong and why does also Sanchez look so limited? Only Mourinho knows. Sanchez always influences games with Arsenal, no matter the outlook - he always changed their play.
I said it before the season and I think it looks the same now. I can see Pogba growing more frustrated at United over time, thinking he deserves better conditons to thrive as a footballer. I believe that if Pogba played for any other top team, he would play on the left side of a midfield three, even as an offensive central midfielder - and he would dominate.
From the first minute today, we could see that their high press and control in midfield was ruining our approach. When we chase with two midfielders and always get little time on the ball, it’s basically like playing with ten players as one of Lingard/Sanchez/Martial will not be involved at all during the game.
We have lost the league ages ago, the best team scores more than one goal more than us on average each game (!) - we are struggling in the big games and we have a terribly poor cohesive unit when attacking. Things need to change quickly - it has to.
DDG, Shaw, Smalling, Jones, Valencia, Pogba, Matic, McTominay, Martial, Lukaku and Sanchez in a 433 would have been much better today. Every day. Now that Sanchez is here, there is no need for Lingard anymore - a very, very limited player. Our team is filled with so many duds!
I said it before the season and I think it looks the same now. I can see Pogba growing more frustrated at United over time, thinking he deserves better conditons to thrive as a footballer. I believe that if Pogba played for any other top team, he would play on the left side of a midfield three, even as an offensive central midfielder - and he would dominate.
From the first minute today, we could see that their high press and control in midfield was ruining our approach. When we chase with two midfielders and always get little time on the ball, it’s basically like playing with ten players as one of Lingard/Sanchez/Martial will not be involved at all during the game.
We have lost the league ages ago, the best team scores more than one goal more than us on average each game (!) - we are struggling in the big games and we have a terribly poor cohesive unit when attacking. Things need to change quickly - it has to.
DDG, Shaw, Smalling, Jones, Valencia, Pogba, Matic, McTominay, Martial, Lukaku and Sanchez in a 433 would have been much better today. Every day. Now that Sanchez is here, there is no need for Lingard anymore - a very, very limited player. Our team is filled with so many duds!
Mourinho is the wrong manager for him. Under Mourinho Modric was voted the biggest flop in La Liga and Mourinho sold De Bruyne, who is easily a top 5 player in the world, because he loved Oscar.
Playing Pogba in a double pivot is simply idiotic. He's an attacking midfielder and a player of moments, not a midfield engine. At Juve he had Vidal, Marchisio and Pirlo behind him. Being big and black doesn't make him Viera.
Playing Pogba in a double pivot is simply idiotic. He's an attacking midfielder and a player of moments, not a midfield engine. At Juve he had Vidal, Marchisio and Pirlo behind him. Being big and black doesn't make him Viera.
If he can only look good with 3 other world class midfielders doing his job for him, I'm not sure who that reflects negatively on aside from him.
He was babysat at Juventus.
He has the scoops and the flicks, but doesn't have it in him to be the go to man in a top team.
He has the scoops and the flicks, but doesn't have it in him to be the go to man in a top team.
2 midfielders would be enough. Someone to anchor the midfield and someone who helps dictate the play. I mean you wouldn't put David Silva or Iniesta alongside just 1 midfielder and behind 4 strikers/wingers either. Mourinho's fault is he thinks Pogba is big and strong so he must be an anchor. No, he isn't, he is an offensive midfielder.
He is overrated for sure because of his social media fame and stupid dances and haircuts etc. but he is also not utilized correctly at all and can perform much better.
Even if that is true there is a reason why Juventus did that. Playing Pogba in that role won them a lot of matches.
I would be one of the first posters on here to say that he should be in a 3. To have him starting deep with Matic is stupid when Herrera (or even McTominay) is available.
But this doesn't excuse the attitude that he carries. Even if he's unhappy with his positioning or whatever else is going on, that doesn't exempt him from having to track back, fight for the ball, or any of the other responsibilities he's been given, especially when he's supposed to be such a core player in the squad. Seeing him play with such cockiness - often embarrassing himself in the process - is shameful when you keep in mind how someone like Carrick has always been so professional over the years.
Pogba has been coddled in the past and that is going to result in serious head-butting with Jose. I would take the manager's side on this one, if it's attitude alone.
But this doesn't excuse the attitude that he carries. Even if he's unhappy with his positioning or whatever else is going on, that doesn't exempt him from having to track back, fight for the ball, or any of the other responsibilities he's been given, especially when he's supposed to be such a core player in the squad. Seeing him play with such cockiness - often embarrassing himself in the process - is shameful when you keep in mind how someone like Carrick has always been so professional over the years.
Pogba has been coddled in the past and that is going to result in serious head-butting with Jose. I would take the manager's side on this one, if it's attitude alone.
More accurately still, just shorten it to 'We will never win the league'.
Certainly the above is the case if big money purchases continue to flatter to deceive. I feel Pogba is the elephant in the room. Sort of. He's more of an emerging problem. A baby elephant, if you will.
He needs to pick it up. I don't expect him to be a workhorse but there is a minimum amount of commitment in challenges and general defensive responsibility to be expected. He really should be more of a goalscoring threat too.
Sounds shite. Give me Pogbas ability and physical traits and I'll make Jonjo Shelvey wish the pitch would swallow him up.
David Silva does very often play with only one midfielder behind him. Pogba can't play as an offensive midfielder because he loses the ball too often, is poor positionally and doesn't work hard enough. Players like Silva and Iniesta are among the hardest working on the pitch and are extremely clever/astute positionally.
I keep saying this but there is no position on the pitch that absolves Pogba of responsibility to do a job for his team. His problem is fundamentally that he just will not do this.
This myth of Pogba at Juventus is needs to stop. Its up to him to prove he isnt a fraud.
So all the trophies he won and accolades he received at Juventus was just our collective imagination?
He needs to make the midfield role work for him imo. That is where he should thrive. If he's an AM then he's nowhere near the top of that bunch.
I could play for Juve and win trophies.
He won accolades as a talented youngster. Time to move on, he's being judged against the best in the world now and can't even hold his own against some Newcastle plodders.
Doesn't matter where he is on the pitch, he still loses the ball easily, doesn't work hard and makes the wrong decisions. Changing his position won't change this.
I think Pogba is great but I do think that perhaps now, 18 months in, we should be seeing the emergence of a true world class player.
He looks a bit behind schedule at the minute.
He looks a bit behind schedule at the minute.
Even as a statement of hyperbole that comment is ridiculous. The idea that Juve could have put any midfielder in Pogba's role and succeed is ridiculous especially since Pogba was still class when Vidal and Pirlo left. Even playing out of position he is still leading us in assists and passes completed. Even though he played poorly against Spurs and Newcastle he is still our best outfield player.
To be fair, you have to wonder what was expected of Pogba at United in a pivot when he excelled in a very specific role (not position in a generic sense - a clearly defined role where he was asked to do specific things) at Juventus. That much was evident even in the past, and was pointed out - back when we signed him (e.g. Link 1, Link 2), yet the same arguments have to be reiterated. You've taken someone who shone in flashes for Juventus as a high-impact but low overall influence player, and thrust him into a role where he's supposed to be in-charge of the tempo of our team because we lack game-controlling attacking midfielders, central midfielders in the mold of Xavi/Scholes/Modrić or deep controllers like Pirlo or even sweepers in defense when we start with the likes of Smalling - who's tasked with playing a role in the build-up from the back. You could argue that he should have been able to Schweinsteigerize himself and adapted his game, but that was never Pogba's forte - and he shouldn't have been expected to transition to a pivot role when his best comes in these zones:
Physically, he looks the part of a Vieira-esque midfielder because of superficiality, but the positions he occupies are more akin to Iniesta in some of the years gone by when he would dovetail with Barcelona's forwards on the inside channel - except, Pogba's not as refined or skillful, and doesn't have comparable tactical awareness or decision-making or perceptiveness of movement. He'll shine in moments and produce outrageous highlight reel clips - which will be enough for some, but will lack sustained periods of consistency, and to have more of those impactful moments, he desperately needs someone who can control the game and time when and where Pogba receives the ball because more possession for Pogba isn't always a good idea because his decision-making comes and goes in waves (like Pirlo did at Juventus as their regulator in possession). Yet you see suggestions like Milinković-Savić - who occupies he same positions Pogba does in the aforementioned graphic, and will create another Gerrard-Lampard issue where the duo just can't coexist in a mutually beneficial way.
Lessons should have ideally been learnt (in terms of how the team should be structured with the signing of Pogba) from this early debacle where our midfield was over-run:
And yet, here we are...
Physically, he looks the part of a Vieira-esque midfielder because of superficiality, but the positions he occupies are more akin to Iniesta in some of the years gone by when he would dovetail with Barcelona's forwards on the inside channel - except, Pogba's not as refined or skillful, and doesn't have comparable tactical awareness or decision-making or perceptiveness of movement. He'll shine in moments and produce outrageous highlight reel clips - which will be enough for some, but will lack sustained periods of consistency, and to have more of those impactful moments, he desperately needs someone who can control the game and time when and where Pogba receives the ball because more possession for Pogba isn't always a good idea because his decision-making comes and goes in waves (like Pirlo did at Juventus as their regulator in possession). Yet you see suggestions like Milinković-Savić - who occupies he same positions Pogba does in the aforementioned graphic, and will create another Gerrard-Lampard issue where the duo just can't coexist in a mutually beneficial way.
Lessons should have ideally been learnt (in terms of how the team should be structured with the signing of Pogba) from this early debacle where our midfield was over-run:
And yet, here we are...
Pogba will be fine when Mourinho changes his tactics to suit his best player. Anyone suggesting he should be sold has lost their mind. A few points
1) Not saying he is at this level, but would any manager with a brain play Xavi, KDB, Silva, Iniesta, or Gerrard primarily in midfield 2? Of course, not. The same applies to Pogba. It seems Mourinho believes b/c he's big and strong he's suited for this role when it's clear he is not
2) Mourinho has a track record of being completely wrong about and/or misusing midfield players (i.e. Modric and KDB)
3) Do people really buy that Pogba all of sudden became a shit player after playing so well with Juve? I'm not buying it.
Sure he's had sub-par performances but pulling the plug on Pogba would be a huge mistake. The major issue for me is the inability of the manager to get the best of Pogba. Let's not pretend Pogba is the only United player who falls into this category...
1) Not saying he is at this level, but would any manager with a brain play Xavi, KDB, Silva, Iniesta, or Gerrard primarily in midfield 2? Of course, not. The same applies to Pogba. It seems Mourinho believes b/c he's big and strong he's suited for this role when it's clear he is not
2) Mourinho has a track record of being completely wrong about and/or misusing midfield players (i.e. Modric and KDB)
3) Do people really buy that Pogba all of sudden became a shit player after playing so well with Juve? I'm not buying it.
Sure he's had sub-par performances but pulling the plug on Pogba would be a huge mistake. The major issue for me is the inability of the manager to get the best of Pogba. Let's not pretend Pogba is the only United player who falls into this category...
There's definitely a large amount of reinventionism going on compared to the consensus when we signed him.
When we signed him it was "it's based on his potential rather than the player he is" due to him not really being able to impose himself on games at Juve.
Now suddenly it's made out like he's the reason juventus were winning all these trophies.
It's also irrelevant as he's not playing for Juventus...and the argument that he needs all these world class players around him and all these responsibilities taken away from him, just to play well, is completely self defeating. It's absolutely daft. He'd be the only "world class" player in history who can't play well unless literally all responsibility to play well is taken away from him.
This is complete hyperbole
1) I don't think anyone has said he was the reason Juve won all those trophies, but it would be foolish to think he wasn't a big part or he didn't play extremely well for them. It's not revisionist history at all.
2) What great player didn't have world class players around him? Messi? Ronaldo? Xavi? Hell, look at the team KDB has around him. I think a lot of posters here forget football is a team game. "Player XYZ is playing poorly because he isn't good enough" is lazy analysis. Teammates and tactics play a huge role.
I'm not trying to pick on you, but a lot of these arguments are straw man.
This is Mkhitaryan all over again. When Pogba fails to do midfield basics and his intensity levels are completely off; the excuses are paraded out.
Pogba does not need two midfielders doing all the work for him against bloody Newcastle. Newcastle spent most of the game camped in their own half and were there for the taking, Pogba received the ball and did feck all with it, off the ball he was atrocious and put in no effort to help his team mates.
Pogba does not need two midfielders doing all the work for him against bloody Newcastle. Newcastle spent most of the game camped in their own half and were there for the taking, Pogba received the ball and did feck all with it, off the ball he was atrocious and put in no effort to help his team mates.
He was definitely their best player during that last title win. And for all players you need to put them in the best position to succeed especially flair players. Someone like Salah could probably still do a job if you played him as a #10 or a CF but, he is not going to look as effective as he does playing wide right with freedom to cut inside.
It would be interesting to hear Sir Alex's views on him and when he allowed him / wanted to leave.
I think Sir Alex saw something in his development or mind set that suggested to him that it would be better to allow him to go.
I think Sir Alex saw something in his development or mind set that suggested to him that it would be better to allow him to go.
Exactly this mate. Wouldnt surprise me if fergie saw a major attitude issue with him
This is the most frustrating thing of all, Jose defends him from here to the hills but never seems to have go at him about his effort. All of this position nonsense, is just that, nonsense. While the left of a 3 was primarily his position at Juve he was never allowed to forget how to get into his defensive position. He used to cover for the left hand side all the time, he used to cover Pirlo when needed just like Vidal. Heck, I've seen Allegri use him almost anywhere in midfield and he always had the discipline.
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