We have definitely lost our soul in a way

Magnus said:
Where were our foreign core 93-2013? I'm not a fecking rasist but I do believe that homegrown players is very important to a club and I think that of a british core aswell. I'm all for having a few top notch foreigners but not more than half the team. I can live with not winning otherwise i wouldnt support this club grewing up in the 70s. I just want us to have some homegrowns and a few brits
Click to expand...

If there was a better homegrown option we'd practially always take it, but there's not many around.

Gareth Bale is the only top class british player around really and we went all out for him. If there was a young Scholes-esque talent we'd go for him but there's not.
 
Harrisamo said:
Schweinstiger made it quite clear the only team he would leave his boyhood club for was United. Di Maria went to whoever offered the biggest pay packet. Everyone is motivated by different things but its normal to appreciate some more than others.
Click to expand...

Not that I disagree or anything, but Schweinsteiger is hardly the first superstar to have signed for a major club and declare that it was his dream to always play there. I'm sure our stature and history motivated him to come here, but if we had been offering shit wages then I'm sure he'd have thought twice.

Ultimately, there's not all that much of a difference between our signings of Di Maria and Schweinsteiger if you forget about the price we paid for each. They're both major, renowned players who were major coups. The fact that Schweinsteiger was more keen to play for us, and would've needed less enticing to come, doesn't put them in a completely different category as such.
 
Magnus said:
Where were our foreign core 93-2013? I'm not a fecking rasist but I do believe that homegrown players is very important to a club and I think that of a british core aswell. I'm all for having a few top notch foreigners but not more than half the team. I can live with not winning otherwise i wouldnt support this club grewing up in the 70s. I just want us to have some homegrowns and a few brits
Click to expand...

Why does the nationality of a player particularly matter, though? You get plenty of examples of players who are foreign, but have been brought up through a clubs youth system from a young age.

Lionel Messi is the most extreme example. He's the best player in the world, and he's been at Barcelona for all of his footballing career. I'd argue that he's a lot more in touch with the core tradition of the club than another Spanish player like, say, Mata or Silva would be if Barcelona were to sign them.

I'm all for a club trying to bring through homegrown talent, and I think we should try to do so since we've done so in the past and it's a good tradition to uphold, but why does the players nationality matter?
 
Not this discussion again.

Note: England is a but crap at the moment. If you're relying on a British core you're gonna not a very good team.
 
RedStarUnited said:
People complained when City and Chelsea were buying a lot of players quickly to catch up with United and the European elite. It was easy to complain about those 2, but now faced with a similar challenge, its mostly accepted as necessary.
Click to expand...

I wasn't one of those people. You need to do what you can to win.
 
When you don't have the youth ready to make a step up then what are you meant to do? The class of 92 was a complete one off that'll never be replicated.

Sure we have talented youth players such as Januzaj and wilson but neither are ready to be playing first team football for a cluba s bif as ours they need loaning out to another prem team for experiance.
 
septic said:
Not this discussion again.

Note: England is a but crap at the moment. If you're relying on a British core you're gonna not a very good team.
Click to expand...

Not that I disagree with the train of thought, but the reality is England were still garbage when we had a English core of Becks, Rio, 2x Nev's, Scholes, Butt, Sherringham, Cole etc staring for us.
Doesn't mean players even in the current useless England national team can't do well for their clubs, domestic and EU.
 
septic said:
Not this discussion again.

Note: England is a but crap at the moment. If you're relying on a British core you're gonna not a very good team.
Click to expand...

times move on. once you could get a whole team from within a couple of miles. Now you're not going to be able to.

do you want a winning team, or a team of locals?

I'm not sure I'm even half bothered by the latter any more.

It's a global game, embrace it.
 
Harrisamo said:
Well that's just a bit sad. If that's what you've always truly wanted why not just support Real Madrid?

It's a lot to do with our tradition and history that we managed to get Schweinstiger. I'd opt for signings like that over superstar ones like Di Maria every day of the week. In order for that to happen we should avoid going the City and Chelsea route of just throwing as much shit at the wall and seeing what eventually sticks.
Click to expand...
Why don't I support Real Madrid? For starters, I hate how they run the club with Perez etc. I like they transfer strategy but that's about it.
And I grew up as a United fan. All my family and friends are supporters. One cannot just change team like that, just like you can't force yourself to fall in love with a girl you have a change on and who isn't out of your league.
 
BennyBlanco said:
Not that I disagree with the train of thought, but the reality is England were still garbage when we had a English core of Becks, Rio, 2x Nev's, Scholes, Butt, Sherringham, Cole etc staring for us.
Doesn't mean players even in the current useless England national team can't do well for their clubs, domestic and EU.
Click to expand...
Not really. Back then England on paper had a great team and well in 2002, they were a ood keeper away from eleminating Brazil.

Now England in paper have a shit team and in field can't pass the groups of euros or World Cup. The England team would finish midtable in EPL.

Asking for a lot of English players in United is asking for United to finish midtable. Times will change, and when English players start improving (there are definitely some promising ones from the young player) we will be there for them. But for god's sake, we need to stop signing players just for being English, something that we did on the end of SAF's era.
 
Revan said:
Not really. Back then England on paper had a great team and well in 2002, they were a ood keeper away from eleminating Brazil.

Now England in paper have a shit team and in field can't pass the groups of euros or World Cup. The England team would finish midtable in EPL.

Asking for a lot of English players in United is asking for United to finish midtable. Times will change, and when English players start improving (there are definitely some promising ones from the young player) we will be there for them. But for god's sake, we need to stop signing players just for being English, something that we did on the end of SAF's era.
Click to expand...


Are you speaking of the same England team 2 summers previous who got knocked out in the group stages of the Euro's to the might of Romania? Even the world cup you speak of we were god awful to watch.
But I digress, I'm not saying I would like United packed with Englishmen, I'm simply stating just because England, the National team continue to be the laughing stock of world football, doesn't automatically mean the majority of it's players, Heart, Smalling, Shaw, Terry, Cahill, Carrick, Wilshere, Rooney, Sterling, Kane etc etc will be junk for their domestic clubs or in Europe.
 
Lots of fans need a reality check regarding our academy as they have completely unrealistic expectations, the class of 92 was a once in a lifetime event, it might be ten years to find one player of that quality let alone a handful. There are plenty of youngsters involved in our first team and if they are good enough they will play, what people don't seem to understand is most of them aren't good enough and the sugar daddy clubs have raised the bar and it is much harder to give players opportunities.

Too many academy players are massively over rated and are nowhere near ready for the first team, and in terms of British players there is a very small pool of talent so it's just not realistic to have a british core.
 
Raoul said:
Spot on. We have to get over the old youth construct and focus on getting back the league and winning the CL. If we can develop a few quality youth players with first team chances along the way then that's a fantastic bonus.
Click to expand...
Personally I think McNair and Blackett did fantastic last season stepping in in high profile games and under that pressure. I see them being central to the cause in a couple of years tbh.
 
BennyBlanco said:
Are you speaking of the same England team 2 summers previous who got knocked out in the group stages of the Euro's to the might of Romania? Even the world cup you speak of we were god awful to watch.
But I digress, I'm not saying I would like United packed with Englishmen, I'm simply stating just because England, the National team continue to be the laughing stock of world football, doesn't automatically mean the majority of it's players, Heart, Smalling, Shaw, Terry, Cahill, Carrick, Wilshere, Rooney, Sterling, Kane etc etc will be junk for their domestic clubs or in Europe.
Click to expand...
The bolded ones aren't obtainable cause they play for rival clubs and they won't sell them to ones. From the others, only Kane might be signed (although it would cost a fortune) and I will be happy if we do so (although he needs to prove himself for an another season).

Btw, I think that Hart is average, as it is Cahill. And I never rated Wilshere.

Anyway, I am for signing top quality English players. There is no reason why to not do so (well bar from them costing twice as much as European counterparts). But not signing players cause they are English which seems what some people here want. Some people got excited that we were linked with average players like Clyne (wanking themselves to death on the possibility of having England's back four, like that was some amazing thing) or Ings. I remember people getting excited when we got Zaha and Powell. Some other asking to sign Ince. Or asking to sign the average Barkley.

Those are signing I don't want to happen. When we are talking for true quality (in my opinion that is limited to Kane, Sterling and Stones) then by all means, go for it.
 
ScarleyUtd said:
It would be interesting to look at Fergie's first season or two in charge. It's common knowledge he took over a failing youth system and it took him years to get it going. Obviously the situation is not quite as dire now, in terms of facilities anyway, but there are parallels.

I suspect he bought plenty of established players when he started and didn't rely on a youth team that wasn't there.
Click to expand...
How can you say something like that when our under 21s just won the premier league.

The feckin donkeys on this site seriously!
 
Green_Red said:
How can you say something like that when our under 21s just won the premier league.

The feckin donkeys on this site seriously!
Click to expand...
Kiddies football is quite irrelevant, to be fair.

If we look to our previous golden generation of young players who won the youth FA Cup, only Pogba made a name for itself. All other players - including the bestest ever player Morrison - struggle to get something better than a place in a team which fights relegation (most of them can't do even that).

Or more recently, the team that won Premier League a couple of years ago. It isn't like any of them became superstars. I mean did any top club (assuming that we sold our soul and now don't play young players) got interested for any of them bar Januzaj and Pereira?
 
For me, it doesn't feel the same supporting a team of ready-made superstars compared to a team that has built and developed together over the years. The latter is becoming increasingly more difficult to achieve as the sport becomes more money-driven and impatient. But in an ideal world I'd prefer it.

So I agree that we've lost part of our soul. Would I change it? I'm not sure. Probably only if ticket prices went down.
 
Revan said:
Kiddies football is quite irrelevant, to be fair.

If we look to our previous golden generation of young players who won the youth FA Cup, only Pogba made a name for itself. All other players - including the bestest ever player Morrison - struggle to get something better than a place in a team which fights relegation (most of them can't do even that).

Or more recently, the team that won Premier League a couple of years ago. It isn't like any of them became superstars. I mean did any top club (assuming that we sold our soul and now don't play young players) got interested for any of them bar Januzaj and Pereira?
Click to expand...
What are you talking about? You are truly talking out of your rear end now mate.

If "kiddies football" is irrelevant how do you decide if players are going to get promoted to the first team? I think your issue is that you only know of superstar footballers, you are a little lost when it comes to the rest of the youth squad over the last decade or so. Lots have gone on to have decent careers and yes not every one realises their potential but that is not just a problem at Man Utd. That is world wide. I can name hundreds of hot prospect youths who came to nothing, from the top 10 clubs in Europe.

Here's three just from Barca alone.. anyone willing please add to this list.

Bojan, Saviola, Dos Santos.
 
Green_Red said:
What are you talking about? You are truly talking out of your rear end now mate.

If "kiddies football" is irrelevant how do you decide if players are going to get promoted to the first team? I think your issue is that you only know of superstar footballers, you are a little lost when it comes to the rest of the youth squad over the last decade or so. Lots have gone on to have decent careers and yes not every one realises their potential but that is not just a problem at Man Utd. That is world wide. I can name hundreds of hot prospect youths who came to nothing, from the top 10 clubs in Europe.

Here's three just from Barca alone.. anyone willing please add to this list.

Bojan, Saviola, Dos Santos.
Click to expand...

Are you trying to prove my point or what? There is no clear correlation between how players do in kiddies level and how they'll do on senior level.

Saying that we won PL for U21 doesn't mean much. As was shown by the previous team who won it, or from our team who won the youth FA a few years ago (from them only Pogba went to be a superstar).
 
Green_Red said:
How can you say something like that when our under 21s just won the premier league.

The feckin donkeys on this site seriously!
Click to expand...

Sorry, I didn't realise it was an all-seeing football savant I was dealing with.

Revan means irrelevant in terms of first team success. We've won youth honours many times in the past, but that doesn't necessarily translate into top level success for those players. Maybe also because we always have the Class of 92 as the benchmark.

The real point though is that we haven't won a trophy in a while, and City is acknowledged to have the better set up now. So there are some similarities as to when Fergie arrived.

Lots have gone on to have decent careers and yes not every one realises their potential but that is not just a problem at Man Utd. That is world wide. I can name hundreds of hot prospect youths who came to nothing, from the top 10 clubs in Europe.

Here's three just from Barca alone.. anyone willing please add to this list.

Bojan, Saviola, Dos Santos.
Click to expand...

Well yes, exactly.
 
Magnus said:
Where were our foreign core 93-2013? I'm not a fecking rasist but I do believe that homegrown players is very important to a club and I think that of a british core aswell. I'm all for having a few top notch foreigners but not more than half the team. I can live with not winning otherwise i wouldnt support this club grewing up in the 70s. I just want us to have some homegrowns and a few brits
Click to expand...

There's no good local talent anymore. Even our best homegrown talent are mostly foreigner (Pique, Da Silvas, Januzaj, Pogba, Rossi)
 
bleedred said:
It's a no win situation for the club.

Don't sign players and promote youth- No quality in the squad blah blah....
Sign players and sell youth players - we have lost our soul.

I can understand the sentiment of OP, but we haven't lost the soul, Football in its entirety has lost it. I can't think of any club which hasn't.
Click to expand...

It's arguable in the Prem that both Southampton and Spurs haven't ... not when you look at the number of their academy/youth players who have recently come up through the ranks into the senior squad and/or first XI, with even more about to follow.
 
GlastonSpur said:
It's arguable in the Prem that both Southampton and Spurs haven't ... not when you look at the number of their academy/youth players who have recently come up through the ranks into the senior squad and/or first XI, with even more about to follow.
Click to expand...

It's a bit easier when you're a small club and don't have to fight for the highest honours though.
 
An Irish Red said:
If there was a better homegrown option we'd practially always take it, but there's not many around.

Gareth Bale is the only top class british player around really and we went all out for him. If there was a young Scholes-esque talent we'd go for him but there's not.
Click to expand...
Can't believe we let Cleverleh go :(
 
Why would you buy crap overvalued English players when there is better and cheaper alternative on the continent. It doesn't make sense.

When Harry fecking Kane is quoted at 40-50m pounds and had one good season, Sterling goes for 50m pounds you get the picture..
 
Well southampton, barcelona and previously man unite were proof that you can produce players good enough to compete for things. You can get the same philosophy all through the club and produce special things. If southampton could hang onto all the players they produced (like barce and united could) then what a side they would have, with oxlade, walcott, bale, schniederlin etc. All players that play in teams that are challenging. If sotn had the cash they could keep these and augment them with a few top players and they would still be proving people wrong in 2015.

I'm sad we've deviated from that path
 
Kostur said:
It's a bit easier when you're a small club and don't have to fight for the highest honours though.
Click to expand...

Well, leaving aside the silly "small club" comment, then I agree if you're talking purely about the league title and winning the CL.
 
The days where we could hand pick the cream of English kids are long over due to the emergence of the academy's of Southampton, City, Arsenal, Liverpool, Everton and Chelsea

This thread is ridiculous really. The club obviously has to evolve in different ways to continue growing with the times.....At the end of the day the most important thing is the entertainment value and if foreigners help to make the league achieve even more of that that then that is what the public will pay their cash to see.....We would all love to have only footballers playing for clubs in the same country they were born in but the quality of football would be crap and so people would lose interest pretty quick
 
GlastonSpur said:
It's arguable in the Prem that both Southampton and Spurs haven't ... not when you look at the number of their academy/youth players who have recently come up through the ranks into the senior squad and/or first XI, with even more about to follow.
Click to expand...
Like who?

Soton have bought Schneiderlin, Wanyama, Clyne, Tadic, Lovren, Mane, Pelle, Jay Rodriguez, Davies.... Their youth products were Shaw, Lallana and Chambers.

Spurs have Kane and who else? Rose, Mason, Townsend? I don't think they are anything but rotational players at best. All their better players came from foreign clubs - Lloris, Vertonghen, Eriksen, Lamela, Fazio, Chadli, Dembele etc...
 
septic said:
Not this discussion again.

Note: England is a but crap at the moment. If you're relying on a British core you're gonna not a very good team.
Click to expand...
This.

Guess what guys. If English players were the best in the world, we'd be buying them. And for those saying a core of British players is key to success, what do you say about Arsenals majority French team of the early 2000's?
 
The aim is always to have the right blend of young players, experienced pro's and a middle group of players in or around their peak. No matter who our manager is, or what playing style philosophy they have, this is what they will try and achieve when building a squad.

That's what United has always done when they have been succesful.
 
Enigma_87 said:
Like who?

Soton have bought Schneiderlin, Wanyama, Clyne, Tadic, Lovren, Mane, Pelle, Jay Rodriguez, Davies.... Their youth products were Shaw, Lallana and Chambers.

Spurs have Kane and who else? Rose, Mason, Townsend? I don't think they are anything but rotational players at best. All their better players came from foreign clubs - Lloris, Vertonghen, Eriksen, Lamela, Fazio, Chadli, Dembele etc...
Click to expand...

S'Hampton have had/have other players as well - e.g. Bale, Walcott, Ward-Prowse. And it's not just about players who have come through the academy; it's also about players who were signed at a young age and developed on from there - e.g. Clyne.

For Spurs, who fielded the youngest starting XI in the Prem last season, the players included (last season) not just the four players you mentioned, but also Bentaleb (who was only 19 when last season began) ... and four of the five became part of the first XI (Kane, Rose, Bentaleb and Mason). And for this coming season we'll be adding Pritchard, possibly Carroll and possibly Veljkovic, not to mention Alli, with several more in the pipe line - e.g. Walker-Peters, Carter-Vickers, Winks, Edwards.

Partly through necessity, partly through developed plan and partly through the happy circumstance of having a talented crop of young players that have either arrived or are coming through the ranks shortly, Spurs are certainly following the academy/youth route with vigour.
 
Crashoutcassius said:
Well southampton, barcelona and previously man unite were proof that you can produce players good enough to compete for things. You can get the same philosophy all through the club and produce special things. If southampton could hang onto all the players they produced (like barce and united could) then what a side they would have, with oxlade, walcott, bale, schniederlin etc. All players that play in teams that are challenging. If sotn had the cash they could keep these and augment them with a few top players and they would still be proving people wrong in 2015.

I'm sad we've deviated from that path
Click to expand...

If a talent is good enough and has the right attitude than somehow or another he would succeed. Pogba is a clear testament of what I am saying. He started at Le Havre, he moved to United because they didn't treat him well there and when lost his patience with us he moved to Juventus and became great. I can mention a list of players who did the same thing which would include Morata, Pique and Fabregas. How many local talent had left United and did the same thing? Why not simply say that for one reason or another there's a drought in terms of British talent? Even at United, most of the players who had actually made it into football in recent years were actually foreigners (Rafael Da Silva, Januzaj, Rossi and Pogba)

Also kindly note that in the past few years United had given a chance to a horde of youth talent, the Da Silva twins, Evans, Cleverley, Macheda, Januzaj, Mcnair right to Blackett. Not to forget the young talent we've bought and tried to develop (Zaha, Jones, Smalling and the latest being Shaw). Its not our fault that they weren't able to keep a first team place.
 
Last edited:
GlastonSpur said:
S'Hampton have had/have other players as well - e.g. Bale, Walcott, Ward-Prowse. And it's not just about players who have come through the academy; it's also about players who were signed at a young age and developed on from there - e.g. Clyne.

For Spurs, who fielded the youngest starting XI in the Prem last season, the players included (last season) not just the four players you mentioned, but also Bentaleb (who was only 19 when last season began) ... and four of the five became part of the first XI (Kane, Rose, Bentaleb and Mason). And for this coming season we'll be adding Pritchard, possibly Carroll and possibly Veljkovic, not to mention Alli, with several more in the pipe line - e.g. Walker-Peters, Carter-Vickers, Winks, Edwards.

Partly through necessity, partly through developed plan and partly through the happy circumstance of having a talented crop of young players that have either arrived or are coming through the ranks shortly, Spurs are certainly following the academy/youth route with vigour.
Click to expand...

Soton/Spurs had, but so did United.

United played Blackett, Januzaj, McNair, Wilson featured in 10 or more games last season. Pereira was also brought in the first team. I wouldn't say that is less than what have Soton/Spurs fielded produced in last seasons, having in mind the bigger squad that we have and the higher expectations that we have.
 
Enigma_87 said:
Soton/Spurs had, but so did United.

United played Blackett, Januzaj, McNair, Wilson featured in 10 or more games last season. Pereira was also brought in the first team. I wouldn't say that is less than what have Soton/Spurs fielded produced in last seasons, having in mind the bigger squad that we have and the higher expectations that we have.
Click to expand...

United had been doing that constantly since the class of 92. Wallwork, Curtis, Wes, OShea, Evans, the Da Silva twins, Cleverley, Macheda, Januzaj, Blackett and Mcnair. Not to forget the amount of young players we've bought and tried to develop ourselves. Foster, Smalling, Jones, Zaha and recently Shaw. The club had been trying constantly to produce the next class of 92 and had failed because the talent isn't good enough. In matter of fact only 2 players had escaped the youth academy only to become great players, Pique and Pogba (ie both foreigners)
 
Enigma_87 said:
Soton/Spurs had, but so did United.

United played Blackett, Januzaj, McNair, Wilson featured in 10 or more games last season. Pereira was also brought in the first team. I wouldn't say that is less than what have Soton/Spurs fielded produced in last seasons, having in mind the bigger squad that we have and the higher expectations that we have.
Click to expand...

Featuring in 10 or more games is not the same as being part of the regular starting XI. Also I'd imagine that the number of minutes played by Kane, Rose, Mason, Bentaleb and Townsend last season would be around 3 or 4 times the comparable number for the MUFC players you mentioned. Moreover, how many minutes will those MUFC players get next season?
 
GlastonSpur said:
Featuring in 10 or more games is not the same as being part of the regular starting XI. Also I'd imagine that the number of minutes played by Kane, Rose, Mason, Bentaleb and Townsend last season would be around 3 or 4 times the comparable number for the MUFC players you mentioned. Moreover, how many minutes will those MUFC players get next season?
Click to expand...

To be fair Glaston smaller sides has the luxury and the need to give youth talent more minutes than bigger ones. However I repeat if a talent is top notch he would make it either at his club or elsewhere
 
GlastonSpur said:
Featuring in 10 or more games is not the same as being part of the regular starting XI. Also I'd imagine that the number of minutes played by Kane, Rose, Mason, Bentaleb and Townsend last season would be around 3 or 4 times the comparable number for the MUFC players you mentioned. Moreover, how many minutes will those MUFC players get next season?
Click to expand...

The expectations and pressure at United are greater, particularly recently. When you bear that in mind it's creditable we still give any youngsters a chance.
 
devilish said:
To be fair Glaston smaller sides has the luxury and the need to give youth talent more minutes than bigger ones. ...
Click to expand...

This is true. I was originally just making the point that not all clubs have - to use the OP's terminology - "lost their soul" by abandoning an emphasis on academy/youth development.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.