If we are talking about producing players for midtable sides, with no disrespect to spurs & S'oton, You can say the same about United. We have been producing Youth players who are good enough for any team other than Top 4, therein lies our problem. The likes of Evans, Cleverley, Welbeck are good enough for most teams in the PL, no matter how bad they have been at United. That's one of the reasons we have so many of ex-united youth level players all over the football league, let alone the PL.
We have definitely lost our soul in a way
- Thread starter RedStarUnited
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If we are talking about producing players for midtable sides, with no disrespect to spurs & S'oton, You can say the same about United. We have been producing Youth players who are good enough for any team other than Top 4, therein lies our problem. The likes of Evans, Cleverley, Welbeck are good enough for most teams in the PL, no matter how bad they have been at United. That's one of the reasons we have so many of ex-united youth level players all over the football league, let alone the PL.
Also I think it's wrong to call Spurs a small club. It's not on the same level as United... but not many are.
S'hampton are a midtable side, but Spurs are not. And bar Welbeck - who went to a top 4 side - I can't think of any of United's recent academy/youth players who would make it into our starting XI.
Yes, that what I said, we haven't been producing good enough talent for top 4. If we were, why would we sell/ loan them?
As far, players getting into spurs team, I would say, Rafael, Evans, Welbeck, Wesley and O'shea around (2008/9) would have gotten into yours and I am sure you will disagree with that.
I must have missed the news when us and every other club shutdown their academies. No club would ever abdandon academy development. It is in their best interests, even for rich clubs, its more profitable to get a player through academy literally free of cost than paying millions. The simple answer is there is not much talent coming through and we have been over this after last summer window as well. If you want to stay competitive, You have to buy!!!
As for your original argument that Spurs haven't lost their soul and they are still trying to bring in youth development, didnt youse buy around 120m just two summers back, why not promote youth back then?.
I didn't say "abdandon academy development" - I talked about abandoning an emphasis on academy and youth development, which is quite different. It's hard to argue that United haven't abandoned such emphasis when you've spent such massive amounts of money in recent seasons: currently well over a quarter of a billion pounds net on additions to your last title-winning squad.
As for the £120m (actually £108m), in net terms we made a transfer profit. And we did promote youth then - in the season following that summer Rose started to feature, as did Townsend and Bentaleb. Besides, the wider picture is not gained by looking at a single summer/season, but rather by looking at trends - i.e. 5 academy/youth players in our squad (and four in the first XI) last season and even more than this in the coming season. I could predict, with a reasonable chance of being proven right, that in the 2016-17 season there will be at least 8 academy/youth players in our squad (and 5 in the first XI).
A title winning squad that had more than 5 youth/academy players.
We have McNair, Blackett, Wilson, Januzaj and Pereira promoted to the first team squad last season and they are more likely to feature in this season as well. I would agree that they may not get as many chances as youth players in other teams, that's more to do with the increased competition for places and greater expectation levels.
That had to do with the fact that the signings you made failed. Do you realistically think Kane would have been offered a chance if Soldado had been banging in goals?.
If you look at the wider perspective, and I would like to think that you will agree on this is that, Utd and Spurs have different expectation levels for the season. For us, I am happy enough that we have been giving the youth who deserve a chance a run in the squad and at the same time keeping in line with the goals for the season. Like many have been saying in here, its easier for clubs like S'oton, Spurs, Everton to promote youth players without much risk. On a side note, which one would you rather prefer playing youth players and finishing 7-10 or ignoring them and finishing in CL??
I don't think we lost it either. Lets face it, most of the talent we've produced after the class of 92 were mostly average players who wouldn't have played at United if they weren't homegrown. Having said that we kept giving a chance to youth talent a chance and we still do even now (Mcnair, Januzaj, Blackett etc). As I said the only two youth talent who left who actually became United level were Pique (who really wanted to leave) and Pogba (who had a valid point)
We're spending money that the club generates, not some oil sheikh's or russian mobster's money. That's a big difference.
I'm ok with spending, but we haven't been spending very wisely. This summer though, finally, we're doing what had to be done ages ago.
I'm ok with spending, but we haven't been spending very wisely. This summer though, finally, we're doing what had to be done ages ago.
One thing I hope we return to or ensure is buying the best of young English. When I look at out in comings this summer, four so far two more to come and none will be English more than likely. 14 players in so far since SAF left and only one English, Luke Shaw. I admit Stones is the only one we should have had to consider since then, it's just something I hope doesn't change.
We introduced 2 new lads last year in McNair and Blackett. Wilson and Januzaj also get game time. What more do you want? If they're good enough to stay, they'll stay...otherwise they're gone, same as it ever was. We give more game time than Chelsea or City to youngsters.
Clubs have to adapt to their environment, this is the same as any business. Ideally the club would prefer to promote a crop of youth players to the first team squad and win trophies that way. It has the benefit of huge savings on transfer fees, increased long term loyalty, a strengthening of the club's core values, and perceived brand superiority. But talent is such a subjective concern, and it can't be forced. If we don't have the quality in the youth ranks, we have to buy from the external environment to remain competitive. The alternative doesn't bear thinking about.
United's investment strategy in that regard, remains relatively consistent with club history. We have continued to sign good young players who we can develop (Smalling, Shaw, Jones, Depay). Yet after the end of the Fergie era, there is a huge vacuum that needs to be filled. We saw a crazy approach last summer, but this year we are seeing the signs of a more coherent, sustainable strategy. Darmian, Schneiderlin and Schweinsteiger all address immediate practical requirements.
As for our pursuit of a big marquee player, shouldn't Manchester United always have one? A global superstar? That is as much a part of the club's history as anything. You only need to look down our list of number 7's to understand that. Perhaps Depay can become that player. Perhaps it's a meg-bucks deal from the outside to bring that player in. The soul of the club will always be the fans.
United's investment strategy in that regard, remains relatively consistent with club history. We have continued to sign good young players who we can develop (Smalling, Shaw, Jones, Depay). Yet after the end of the Fergie era, there is a huge vacuum that needs to be filled. We saw a crazy approach last summer, but this year we are seeing the signs of a more coherent, sustainable strategy. Darmian, Schneiderlin and Schweinsteiger all address immediate practical requirements.
As for our pursuit of a big marquee player, shouldn't Manchester United always have one? A global superstar? That is as much a part of the club's history as anything. You only need to look down our list of number 7's to understand that. Perhaps Depay can become that player. Perhaps it's a meg-bucks deal from the outside to bring that player in. The soul of the club will always be the fans.
If we lost our soul, it wasn't recently.
Obviously the latter. But it isn't necessarily a choice between one or the other. No sane manager will field youth players unless either he thinks either (a) they are better than the senior player alternatives (or at least can't be any worse); or (b) it's a game that can be won anyway; or (c) it's a game that's headed for a loss anyway; or (d) it's worth taking the risk because of the valuable playing time it'll give to the youth players and he believes that they have real potential.
Think people are feeling this way more due to the fact most posters on here have only ever saw United under Sir Alex, until he retired. Take away the disaster that was Moyes and LvG has no real Ferguson players left. Next season it'll be even less probably.
I personally lost my soul around 1991. I won't tell you the circumstances but it had to do with pubic hairs and Chinese...blades.
Since then I've felt immune to disappointment. Apart from the fullback department. Still capable of feeling disappointed there.
But United - yeah. We've lost our soul, of course. Long since gone. My sympathy lies with those who grieve - not with those who mock the grievers. But there ya go. Sentimental, I guess.
Since then I've felt immune to disappointment. Apart from the fullback department. Still capable of feeling disappointed there.
But United - yeah. We've lost our soul, of course. Long since gone. My sympathy lies with those who grieve - not with those who mock the grievers. But there ya go. Sentimental, I guess.
Yeah, things are bad at the moment. When youngsters get onto the pitch people expect them to suddenly have stars coming out their backsides. We've seen it recently with Januzaj. A few bad matches here and there and he's over hyped.
What's particularly strange is that we have an obsession with buying mediocre players who end up as squad players as though they are going to take us anywhere. Why not stop doing that and give the squad places to some of our young players? There's no patience anymore and like you I fear for depay. There's no waiting for him to go through 8 matches without a goal to adjust to things, he needs to be firing from the off or he'll be discarded.
Not trusting the youth when you're producing little to no talent is fair, however when you are producing then its downright criminal. Buying Bastian Schweinsteiger seems like a good idea, but why when he's clearly not the player he used to be and we have Pereira coming through and Herrera established in the first 11?
We've got players in this squad that can be replaced by some youngsters and we wouldn't be that worse off. Young, Fellaini, Blind, lindergaard, Rojo, Valencia...why do we pay so much wages for these lads when we could easily give the youth that game time and after time I reckon we wouldn't be that much worse off.
I get that its important for us to have a great team and compete at the very highest level of club football but that doesn't mean we should go around hoarding talentless players. You'd have thought that the Pogba debacle would've been a learning curve but sadly that hasn't been the case.
What's particularly strange is that we have an obsession with buying mediocre players who end up as squad players as though they are going to take us anywhere. Why not stop doing that and give the squad places to some of our young players? There's no patience anymore and like you I fear for depay. There's no waiting for him to go through 8 matches without a goal to adjust to things, he needs to be firing from the off or he'll be discarded.
Not trusting the youth when you're producing little to no talent is fair, however when you are producing then its downright criminal. Buying Bastian Schweinsteiger seems like a good idea, but why when he's clearly not the player he used to be and we have Pereira coming through and Herrera established in the first 11?
We've got players in this squad that can be replaced by some youngsters and we wouldn't be that worse off. Young, Fellaini, Blind, lindergaard, Rojo, Valencia...why do we pay so much wages for these lads when we could easily give the youth that game time and after time I reckon we wouldn't be that much worse off.
I get that its important for us to have a great team and compete at the very highest level of club football but that doesn't mean we should go around hoarding talentless players. You'd have thought that the Pogba debacle would've been a learning curve but sadly that hasn't been the case.
Because the lads aren't getting a fair shot. Look how long it took for spurs to get Kane involved. The quality is there but everyone seems to be too concerned about keeping their jobs than playing the youth. This is the perfect time cause the british youngsters coming through now are showing fantastic ability.
Fergie would have done similar if he'd been allowed. The rumours are he wanted Batistuta, Desailly and Ronaldo.
If United lost some, or all of its soul, it sure looks like it has enough money to buy a new one.
Ahh, but money can't buy you that ....
I can't help but laugh every time I see this thread title. Could it be any less snappy?
Money can buy you anything...............except maybe a dinosaur.
With Januzaj leaving on loan with a possible option to buy (Not clear) and Wilson possibly also headed out surely worth a bump again ?
Getting tough to argue with the way we are going now. The only argument against being that we played few young defenders when everyone else and their dog was injured last season.
Getting tough to argue with the way we are going now. The only argument against being that we played few young defenders when everyone else and their dog was injured last season.
I agree. A window without even 1 marquee signing. Sad times.
This thread was about United, not the other clubs.
Wasn't this man brought in because he liked working with youngsters? Or was it with only youngsters from other clubs bought at exorbitant prices?
He has shipped every home grown player from the squad out. Only McNair and Pereira are left with the first team as academy representatives. Or may be they'll be shipped out by tomorrow 6pm too?
Don't know what to think right now. Doesn't feel like Manchester United at all. Feels like a badly run money club.
He has shipped every home grown player from the squad out. Only McNair and Pereira are left with the first team as academy representatives. Or may be they'll be shipped out by tomorrow 6pm too?
Don't know what to think right now. Doesn't feel like Manchester United at all. Feels like a badly run money club.
Oh Christ, not this nonsense again.
I concur, but if the media is going to use this as an negative element im just wondering to which standard they are going to hold us ....
We still have Reus to come. Don't be so negative.
B.E.L.I.E.V.E
Wasn't this man brought in because he liked working with youngsters? Or was it with only youngsters from other clubs bought at exorbitant prices?
He has shipped every home grown player from the squad out. Only McNair and Pereira are left with the first team as academy representatives. Or may be they'll be shipped out by tomorrow 6pm too?
Don't know what to think right now. Doesn't feel like Manchester United at all. Feels like a badly run money club.
Yep, and even after doing this and taking something out of club along with a blank chequebook and spending reaching 230 million plus or what not, some people are saying that him not winning trophies would be a success.
It's bewildering to me. To make up for all this shitfeckery he needs to win big trophies or be sacked as ruthlessly as he is throwing out players this season even.If we are fully going down Real, Chelski way then we might as well be atleast 50% as harsh as they are with our manager policy too.
I think I lost my soul a long time ago, so who cares.
Done by midnight, then our soul is returned.
Yeah but we gained a philosophy.
I wouldn't even care that much if we were playing to City's standard, but the fact that we're still behind them just adds insult to all of this.
If you're going to sell out then do so in style and make a success out of it ffs.
If you're going to sell out then do so in style and make a success out of it ffs.
Those who feel disconnected from the club can quite easily support FCOM if they wish. Times have changed unfortunately. You can't win the PL anymore by sticking out a good homegrown side. Do you think the side that includes the youth would beat this current City side? Not a chance. A front 4 of
However nice it looks, and it really does make me feel warm seeing that side on paper, it wouldn't beat City. Not yet at least.
I hate spending the way we do, but it's the only way to get back to the top. I'm sure once we're there, the youth will return to our set up. I just don't think, with the pressure LVG is under from the hierarchy LET ALONE THE BUNCH OF ERRATIC POSTERS ON HERE, he can't afford to "waste" time bleeding in the youth into the first team every week.
Pereira Januzaj Memphis
Wilson
Wilson
However nice it looks, and it really does make me feel warm seeing that side on paper, it wouldn't beat City. Not yet at least.
I hate spending the way we do, but it's the only way to get back to the top. I'm sure once we're there, the youth will return to our set up. I just don't think, with the pressure LVG is under from the hierarchy LET ALONE THE BUNCH OF ERRATIC POSTERS ON HERE, he can't afford to "waste" time bleeding in the youth into the first team every week.
It's quite simple, the pressure is on to win trophies at United and maintain the standard set by Sir Alex, otherwise all the big sponsorship deals will cease. None of the players he has let go are good enough or would get game time so what would be the point in keeping them? If they were good enough they would play, but they are not. He's let Januzaj go on loan and appears Wilson will be the same. They get game time and chance to improve in competitive matches and leagues and if they are good enough they will come back.
I wonder if everyone would be happy if United lined up with
Johnstone
McNair, Smalling, Jones, Shaw
Januzaj, Carrick, Powell, Pereira,
Wilson, Rooney,
Blackett, Young, Lingard, Varela, Lindegaard
When we came mid table again and got absolutely destroyed in Europe and by the bigger teams in the Prem, everyone would be shouting at LvG and Woodward and telling them to get the chequebooks out.
We got extremely lucky with our class of 92, and unfortunately the standard set now in the Premiership, let alone Europe, is so high, the chances of youth players attaining that level is extremely small. We just have to admit that we now have to do what all the other big clubs in the Prem, and many abroad do. We lorded over City and Chelsea for buying their success, now we have to eat humble pie and follow suit. The difference being is that at least United have earned their money through great success and a rich history and from having one of the biggest fan bases in the world. Although it's obvious, that is little comfort for many fans.
Well that's one school of thought but even that success argument isn't exactly running true yet as said in this post by @Kaos
And by me in this -
If we don't challenge for and win big titles this season and then maybe we cannot afford to waste time with a Erratic manager in LVG either.