[ravelston]

Rooney's contributions so far this season would definitely be good for the key stats. Three assists and a goal in four games - right up there with the best. The argument over what matters most, key stats vs overall play, is for another day or thread I guess.

For me this is one of the areas statistics don't really capture the true performance. I will say that he saved himself yesterday with a great assist which is what he's really there to do (alongside goals). However I would argue all day long that a certain Armenian looked twice the player when he had his cameo after 60 minutes and the stats probably don't back that up.

Mkhitaryan had excellent stats - 4 shots and a key pass plus 88% passing overall. On a per minute basis he and Rashford lost the ball a lot, but they were sent in to be aggressive - to take advantage of a defense that had been moved around all game - so you'd expect them to make a lot of mistakes. What it would have been nice to see from Mkhitaryan would have been more of a eye for the final pass rather than taking some pretty hopeful shots. One thing you can say about Rooney is that he has always made chances for his team mates (in this case 5).

In terms of what the stats reflect - they're based on all round performance. Obviously goals and assists help but so do a plethora of other activities. So for Rooney, in the PL this season, on top of his goal and 2 assists, he leads the team in key passes, his shots plus key passes is second only to Pogba (although, given the speculative nature of a lot of Pogba's shots ... ), his overall passing stats are good, and he does a job on the defensive end. (Negatives like poor control, being dispossessed, fouls committed and cards received count against you.) It ends with him in a virtual tie with Blind and Fellaini for the third ranking in the team. So I guess it depends what you mean by "true performance".

 

[clarkydaz]

This hatred of Rooney is getting to really ridiculous levels. I've not seen this much hatred for United players from opposing fans. He's judged entirely differently to everyone else in the team and no his salary should not be a reason.

maybe it isn't?

 

[ravelston]

On course for 10 goals and 28 assists this season

In the PL it looks more like 12 goals and 26 assists - which would put him well in the running for PL Player of the Year. Probably better not get ahead of ourselves.

 

[wr8_utd]

In the PL it looks more like 12 goals and 26 assists - which would put him well in the running for PL Player of the Year. Probably better not get ahead of ourselves.

But but but someone else playing instead of him would get 24 goals and 52 assists.

 

[ravelston]

You're joking? Yeah there has been some fair criticism but there's been some obvious abuse/hate if you look back.

The hate is obvious but i'm not sure that abuse is the right word. Having said that the bulk of it seems to be either mindless repetition of previous posts or extremely naive. This is a great example - "There was a moment in the first half where he got the ball with players ahead of him about 30 yards from the goal and Hull were pushing further and further back. Rooney idled on the ball for several seconds before turning around and passing it back to (you guessed it...) Valencia." The author seems to believe that this was a bad thing. The reality is that he's described what good AMs do - hold the ball to see if anything is developing ahead of them; if nothing is happening, spread the ball wide. Does he really believe that spreading the ball is not part of the game plan? How does he think that we tire the defenders so that Mkhitaryan and Rashford have some leverage when they come on? Naive in the extreme.

 

[Black Adder]

Don't forget his nearly-assists, which count for 3 points each in the Alternative Rooney League.

You used to be funny, now seem bitter for some reason

Do nearly-assists count as much as moral assists?

Voice of a reason from a poster who claims Pogba first match outclasses anything Rooney has done last five years

 

[ravelston]

But but but someone else playing instead of him would get 24 goals and 52 assists.

Absolutely.

 

[ravelston]

Whoscored gave Rooney a 7.62 against Bournemouth. He was unquestionably shit in that game.

7.62 is higher than Bailly in any game so far this season and better than Valencia vs. Soton according to the same site. I won't take any rating on that site as gospel.

Not really. He lost the ball 6 times - bad; a goal, 4 shots (3 on goal), a key pass, 90% passing overall, and a couple of tackles - good. There was a lot more good than bad. That was the game where Blind hoofed the ball long 13 times (finding a colleague with 5 of them) and still rated 7.64 - again there was a lot of good in his performance to balance the bad.

 

[Womp]

The hatred for Rooney is easily summed up; he's nearly 31 and bar individual moments of brilliance, plays like he's in his 40's for the majority of the game. Loses the ball nearly every-time he is nudged or pressed, ruins potential counter attacks by either, losing the ball, trying the wrong pass, trying a cross field pass that doesn't find the target or taking 5 minutes to control the ball and turn.

He is our highest earner and for whatever the feck he really earns, one or two moments of class along with 85+ minutes of anonymity, dire first touches and being out-muscled isn't enough. People saying he won the game for us yesterday, fair enough, but had we had Mkhi on from the start I don't doubt the game would have been put to bed much earlier.

The fact that he's held the club ransom twice and is completely ignorant to his own dire performances (as shown by his interview a few weeks ago about how he has nothing to prove to anyone, really?) lastly the fact that literally no pundits, commentators or managers seem to ever question his contribution, despite him being absolutely dire at times could also be a factor for some.

It's as simple as this - he's shite for large portions of the game, his form never comes into question and he can be replaced by a better player in just about every position he occupies. Some skewed statistics won't change that.

The fact that even despite him getting a few goals and assists and playing relatively well in patches it still doesn't give me any confidence choosing him to play in the City game speaks for itself.

With all the money we've spent it's obvious we want to re-establish ourselves as one of the top teams in Europe, no team who's aspiration to be the best should be content with this current Rooney. Merely comparing him to other 10's in the League makes him look weak, let alone the best 10's in Europe.

 

[ravelston]

The hatred for Rooney is easily summed up; he's nearly 31 and bar individual moments of brilliance, plays like he's in his 40's for the majority of the game. Loses the ball nearly every-time he is nudged or pressed, ruins potential counter attacks by either, losing the ball, trying the wrong pass, trying a cross field pass that doesn't find the target or taking 5 minutes to control the ball and turn.

He is our highest earner and for whatever the feck he really earns, one or two moments of class along with 85+ minutes of anonymity, dire first touches and being out-muscled isn't enough. People saying he won the game for us yesterday, fair enough, but had we had Mkhi on from the start I don't doubt the game would have been put to bed much earlier.

The fact that he's held the club ransom twice and is completely ignorant to his own dire performances (as shown by his interview a few weeks ago about how he has nothing to prove to anyone, really?) lastly the fact that literally no pundits, commentators or managers seem to ever question his contribution, despite him being absolutely dire at times could also be a factor for some.

It's as simple as this - he's shite for large portions of the game, his form never comes into question and he can be replaced by a better player in just about every position he occupies. Some skewed statistics won't change that.

The fact that even despite him getting a few goals and assists and playing relatively well in patches it still doesn't give me any confidence choosing him to play in the City game speaks for itself.

With all the money we've spent it's obvious we want to re-establish ourselves as one of the top teams in Europe, no team who's aspiration to be the best should be content with this current Rooney. Merely comparing him to other 10's in the League makes him look weak, let alone the best 10's in Europe.

Your location would seem to sum you up perfectly.

 

[Womp]

Your location would seem to sum you up perfectly.

"I have nothing relevant to say so I'm trying to be funny"

 

[Client6]

The revisionism on the Cafe on a lot of things and some people's bitterness toward Rooney is remarkable really, and barring the poetry and personal abuse, it is scarily looking like RAWK in here.

This hatred of Rooney is getting to really ridiculous levels. I've not seen this much hatred for United players from opposing fans. He's judged entirely differently to everyone else in the team and no his salary should not be a reason.

But 350,000!!

If I am not mistaken, ever since the news of signing Pogba for 90 million, I have seen Rooney's salary being brought up less and less. Classic revisionism right here.

 

[Womp]

The revisionism on the Cafe on a lot of things and some people's bitterness toward Rooney is remarkable really, and barring the poetry and personal abuse, it is scarily looking like RAWK in here.





If I am not mistaken, ever since the news of signing Pogba for 90 million, I have seen Rooney's salary being brought up less and less. Classic revisionism right here.

What's even more baffling is people thinking anyone criticising one of our own is because of a personal agenda or because they're bitter, couldn't be that they just want the best for the club, surely? Maybe because they support Manchester United and not Rooney. Martial is probably my favourite player in the squad but I'm not shying away from the fact that he should be benched as he's not performing as there are better alternatives, for example.

 

[Red Stone]

Not really. He lost the ball 6 times - bad; a goal, 4 shots (3 on goal), a key pass, 90% passing overall, and a couple of tackles - good. There was a lot more good than bad. That was the game where Blind hoofed the ball long 13 times (finding a colleague with 5 of them) and still rated 7.64 - again there was a lot of good in his performance to balance the bad.

Do you watch the game or just look at stats after the whistle?



Apart from the goal, the shots on targets were shit. Straight at the goalkeeper with very little power.
90% passing accuracy, but almost all of them were sideways or backwards and not a single pass of his was received within 20 yards of the Bournemouth goal, despite him playing as a #10 and being the main creative outlet of the team.
Squawka has him at 0% tackling success with three attempted tackles.
Zero headers won, zero interceptions.

And the key pass? That was a three yard pass to Martial after 24 minutes about 40 yards out where Martial carried it inside the box and shot it wide. About as significant a contribution as the pass to Lingard in the CS.

He was fecking shit. And he was miles away from being anywhere near as good as Valencia and Bailly, yet he got a higher rating. That's my point. The rating system is flawed. Just looking at the stats is flawed.

 

[bugmat]

Can someone please do this?

All of you whining about Rooney losing the ball seem to forget he is an attacking player and will lose the ball often. You all just ignore how many times other attackers lose the ball.

The issue was not that he lost the ball 3 times - many players do that or more over 90 minutes. The issue was how he did it in - under 60 seconds, being tackled the same way three times. I've never seen it before. We win the ball, defender passes it to Rooney, he turns, looses it in a tackle when he had about a second to decide how to avoid it...the ball comes back in our box we win it again..pass it to him free...he loses it in a tackle..repeat one more time. All in under 60 seconds.

If that was a better team than Hull like City or Arsenal they probably score on one of those 3 turnovers, from "nothing".

I've said it before and others have - he's not good enough to be playing as a #10. His best plays for us these 3 games have come out wide where he has time and space to pick a cross/pass, and his touch doesn't instantly lea to a counter. it's no coincidence that his assist to Zlatan vs Saints and that for Rashford came when he didn't have to be aware of what was around him in 360 degrees and he's seeing the whole pitch. He doesn't have the spatial awareness or speed of body or thought to be a scholes or even Giggs when they came into the middle.

Put him wide left with plenty of overlapping from Shaw and let Micky set him and zlatan up.

 

[Dumbat12]

Your location would seem to sum you up perfectly.

If you have nothing to say, then you might as well keep your mouth shut.

Womp is absolutely right, aside from that magical moment from Rooney, he played generally poor during the whole game. He won us the game, yes, but what if there was a better player in his place, like Miki for example? We probably could have won that earlier, without the unnecessary drama.

And I repeat for the 100th time, this isn't a dip in form for him, he has been generally poor for 3 years now... 3 YEARS, not days, not months. He is never going to go back to his previous levels so we might as well stop giving him chances and let someone else replace him.

We are extra harsh on Rooney exactly because he hasn't performed at a proper level for 3 years, that's why. Pogba may have had a bad game yesterday, but this was his first. Even Messi can have a bad game and that's absolutely fine, but when you can't perform for 3 years, then that's a problem.

 

[Tincanalley]

I could have made that assist in the Community Shield game. Every one of our players play several passes exactly like that one in every single game.

Yes, it counts as an assist in the statistics, but it shouldn't be used to excuse Rooney's performance in that game. That goal was all Lingard's doing. If he hadn't channelled his inner Messi and gone past the entire Leicester team it would have been just another Wayne Rooney sideways pass.

The 'sideways pass' attempt at expertise gives you away I am afraid. Sideways and passes back are a vital part of the game of football as it is played. In the boring old real world, that is.

 

[Black Adder]

But but but someone else playing instead of him would get 24 goals and 52 assists.

Just in the match against Hull! And don't forget it was Rooney who said to Mata to nick ball of Ibrahimović so that he can later become hero!

 

[Red Stone]

The 'sideways pass' attempt at expertise gives you away I am afraid. Sideways and passes back are a vital part of the game of football as it is played. In the boring old real world, that is.

Does it matter if sideways passes are important or not for the point that I'm making? It doesn't make that particular pass any less insignificant in the grand scheme of things. The only significant thing that happened during that goal was all the stuff Lingard did. Even Anderson's pass to Ronny when he scored that goal against Porto is more of an assist.

 

[dichinero]

One pass had made Rooney a hero despite a shocking 90mins. Let's imagine that Rashford missed the shoot, I wonder what reception he'll get here.

 

[Dumbat12]

One pass had made Rooney a hero despite a shocking 90mins. Let's imagine that Rashford missed the shoot, I wonder what reception he'll get here.

The Rooney apologists would still defend him, nothing would have changed.

 

[Tincanalley]

The amount of criticism Rooney attracts is unbelievable. Zlatan has had some pretty poor touches/misplaced passes in the last two games and it's not talked about. Rooney has had 2 crucial contrubtions and yet the little mistakes are picked up. I'm all for criticizing him when he's not contributing but he's just too important to leave out. He always contributes in someway. Can't wait for him to get the record!

I think there are many who feel the way you do. Me, for example ... I go through phases of wanting to argue against the anti Rooney... Anti-whoever; the expert-sounding-but-clueless posters... (I am not talking about people making valid/balanced observations; just the ones with the agendas) I want to try and persuade, to debate... I think we should be all one happy get-behind-the-lads, family...Then I usually think why bother?

 

[Mrs Smoker]

He has had not a shocking 90 minutes, that's just ridiculous.

Had that annoying minute or so with lost balls, but was quite fine otherwise.

 

[Mrs Smoker]

Now, talking about shocking performances, think Jon Walters.

Two own goals, and think he missed a penalty even.

That first own goal deserve the adjective alone.

 

[Black Adder]

One pass had made Rooney a hero despite a shocking 90mins. Let's imagine that Rashford missed the shoot, I wonder what reception he'll get here.

I've made alternative table without Rooney in the first team since there are some post like "what if he wasn't playing", yours "let's imagine Rashford missing that chance" so when we're in lala land instead of reality let's give it a go!

We still have 9 points but goal difference is 24:1 with Ibrahimović scoring 16 goals from Mkhitaryan 14 assists, 1 penalty and 1 Mata assist. Mata himself scored 7 goals and Martial 1. Rashord didn't play because he's injured by Rooney in training.

Cool eh?

 

[Dinghy]

Dispossesed three times in his own half in 25 seconds:

streamable.com/f70p

He's so god awful on the ball when under any kind of pressure. When we come up against a better side then Hull it's going to get really ugly.

 

[Mrs Smoker]

Stupid ref, lost ball (for shame, Wayne), fouled.

Apparently, not once was he dispossessed in the 5,615 seconds outside of those.

 

[Tincanalley]

Dispossesed three times in his own half in 25 seconds:

streamable.com/f70p

He's so god awful on the ball when under any kind of pressure. When we come up against a better side then Hull it's going to get really ugly.

Is that the case, indeed? You wouldn't advise Mou to pick him in two weeks, then?

 

[Mrs Smoker]

Just click on Media button, paste the url, and that's it.

 

[Vilev]

One pass had made Rooney a hero despite a shocking 90mins. Let's imagine that Rashford missed the shoot, I wonder what reception he'll get here.

It was impossible to miss, that is why the pass is so good. The real question why did others fluff their chances? If they are supposedly "so good".

 

[berbatrick]

It was impossible to miss, that is why the pass is so good. The real question why did others fluff their chances? If they are supposedly "so good".

Rooney had the best chance of the first half, from a similar run by Mata.

 

[settembrini]

He was simply terrible as a #10. Again.

Did well as a back-up left winger though. New role for him?

 

[Red Stone]

The argument in this thread is between people who are happy with anything as long as he adds to those numbers at the top of the thread and people who would rather have a player that adds to the overall quality of the team's attacking play with the pace, penetration and drive we saw from Mkhitaryan and Rashford yesterday.

Personally, I think that over the course of a season, dropping Rooney for Micky means producing better attacks more often, and will give us more points at the end of the season. It's just simple probability. If you give me the choice between a player that looks to drive forward and attacks at every opportunity and a player that gets put under pressure and loses it or passes it backwards most of the time and then pulls something out of the hat every now and then I'll take the first player every time, even if the second player has had a few productive games stats-wise.

The thing is, people are saying Rooney is getting an unreasonable amount of criticism and hate, but the people saying it are cutting him unreasonable amounts of slack too. What if the rest of the team was lacking as much sharpness as Rooney? We'd be conceding goals because of defensive lapses and goalkeeping errors for starters. Would a defender that plays like trash for 90 minutes and then pops up with a clearance off the line at the very end to secure a 4-3 win be getting praised for the one clearance or criticised for the poor game up until that point? What about a keeper that fumbles in several goals before pulling off a world class save to secure a narrow win?

Rooney is only one out of eleven players in a team and should be held to the same standards as the rest. In a good team, you need all your players to perform for the full 90 minutes. A team that plays like shit for 90 minutes and then produces a world class team goal isn't going to be winning many trophies. Just look at Arsenal and Liverpool. During recent years they've been capable of playing some mesmerizing stuff in attack, but Slippygate aside, neither have come close to winning the league in the past decade.

 

[Dumbat12]

Just click on Media button, paste the url, and that's it.

Tbf, that ref was absolutely pathetic during the first challenge. As much as I think Rooney was terrible he could have done better, if the ref had some positional awareness.

 

[bosnian_red]

Basically the crux of it is that as long as he keeps producing moments like those in the last minute, he'll stay in the side. As rough as his overall play has been for us for a while, he is still the captain and brings other leadership qualities that Mourinho obviously feels outweigh his on the ball struggles. Off the ball he's fine anyway IMO, it's just his touch and passing which is quite bad these days, but 3 assists and a goal so far is something you can't really argue with. I'm sure he'll eventually be phased out this season, as we have better players on the bench, but people shouldn't be surprised when he starts every week considering he is still being productive.

 

[Vilev]

Rooney had the best chance of the first half, from a similar run by Mata.

The difference of course is that Mata's ball was very poor from that position and it ricocheted to Rooney via deflection. While Rooney managed to pass the ball exactly where Rashford would have been, and it needed only a touch.

 

[Vilev]

Basically the crux of it is that as long as he keeps producing moments like those in the last minute, he'll stay in the side. As rough as his overall play has been for us for a while, he is still the captain and brings other leadership qualities that Mourinho obviously feels outweigh his on the ball struggles. Off the ball he's fine anyway IMO, it's just his touch and passing which is quite bad these days, but 3 assists and a goal so far is something you can't really argue with. I'm sure he'll eventually be phased out this season, as we have better players on the bench, but people shouldn't be surprised when he starts every week considering he is still being productive.

His passing is fine for the most part, he actually managed some great passes and deliveries before his assist. He picked Rashford with his cross from the right, managed to get the ball straight to him, but Marcus cold not hit it hard enough. It was the moment when Pogba fouled with his overhead attempt. Rooney also found Pogba in the box with a good through ball when Pogba fired across the goal and it nearly was an own goal by Hull's defender. That's just couple examples that spring to mind.
His creativity is largely okay, his cross from Ibra's though ball for Martial was also very good. What Rooney lacks is the general fitness. It's more his reaction time on the ball is low and his in-game awareness is currently bad. But when he has the time, like against Saints or against Hull, two very similar situation. Rooney will deliver.

 

[berbatrick]

The difference of course is that Mata's ball was very poor from that position and it ricocheted to Rooney via deflection. While Rooney managed to pass the ball exactly where Rashford would have been, and it needed only a touch.

You were talking about Ibra and Martial apparently missing chances, and Rooney missed the best chance. From memory, Mata also had to deal with a much more crowded penalty area and there were no runners, everyone was waiting and marked.

Edit:

Spoiler

Rashford's run deserves a lot of credit, the box was more corwded than I remembered but he saw the space

 

[Client6]

What's even more baffling is people thinking anyone criticising one of our own is because of a personal agenda or because they're bitter, couldn't be that they just want the best for the club, surely? Maybe because they support Manchester United and not Rooney. Martial is probably my favourite player in the squad but I'm not shying away from the fact that he should be benched as he's not performing as there are better alternatives, for example.

Let's keep the argument about Rooney's usefulness to the team aside for now, that wasn't my point anyway and this is my last post for the day because I'm still a newbie and my count is up.

My point is Rooney gets slated on here way more than any other player, even if that player has played worse or equally bad. The 'Wayne Rooney Performances' thread is always on the front page on the Cafe, even when he's had a decent game, there are people laying into him. The intensity of the scrutiny for Rooney is not consistent with that of other players.

And some of the revisionism I've seen in this thread and others recently is amazing. There are people claiming here he was technically never world class. I don't see many people bringing up his salary now, something which was used to beat him up with week in week out. When it was confirmed we signed Mourinho and some were upset about his character, people started bringing up how Ferguson was never a saint and how some of the things he did were just as bad (wow), after United fans spent years calling Mourinho a c*** and what not right up till the Eva C. incident. When some people were upset that Mourinho is going to play negative football, people started saying Fergie did it often too! More people now care about winning and getting the 3 points more than the style, something we were dying for under LVG, and yet they overlook Rooney, who comes up with a decisive contribution that gives them just what they asked. The revisionism largely looks very RAWK-esque.

And the hypotheticals are amazing too - like "if Rooney hadn't played the entire 90 mins, we would have scored much more". Seriously? As long as the players that are selected deliver, there is no reason to change them. That's how a squad works, the more it plays together, the better it works. And who knows if not playing Rooney would have worked? FFS It's been 3 games into the season and nothing warrants him being dropped.

Nobody is saying anybody here doesn't have the best interest of the club at heart. But the intense scrutiny that Rooney receives seems more like hate and feels really putrid.

 

[Attila]

He plays shit but he is makings goals right now. He deserves to play for that imo. He's also one of the remaining guys from Fergie which makes me want him in the squad

Some of the fans claiming he is complete shit and he is very good is annoying. He's neither. Just an average player with good moments.