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2016-17 Performances


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5.2 Season Average Rating
Appearances
39
Goals
8
Assists
10
Yellow cards
8
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I'd imagine that largely comes from Ibra scoring the winner. Not that he'd have been slated had he not scored at all, but it's generally unusual to see a player criticised too heavily if they've made an important match-winning contribution.

True, yeah. But you'd think people could judge the overall performance in isolation from that contribution. Or at least try to.
 
Oh and something else to consider is Rooney's habitual slow start to the season. It's not forgivable, of course. It's bloody annoying and I keep hoping against hope he'll avoid getting so out of shape over the summer break but it is something we've seen in every single season at the club. Including his very best.
 
Indeed it has. If someone can show me some stats to compare and contrast how many attacking moves broke down at his feet, compared to anyone else, then we can see what we're dealing with. Right now, all we've got is opinions. And the opinions in this thread vs Ibra's are farily solid evidence of the sort of bias that makes opinions very hard to take seriously.

Pretty sure such stats don't exist. Even if they did, would they tell you how many options were ahead of him or if there was high % chance of a clear sight of goal should he have moved it on quickly? I say that because I'm assuming you want to compare to say Ibra or Martial. Rooney plays in a key position of creativity and if he can't sort his feet out and pick passes quickly and effectively, then we are such a blunt object as a team. And we were yesterday, boring as ever.

Some stats are fine for football, I'm not denying they have a place but you can't just hide behind misleading stats like 1 assist to Ibra's 0 (5-yard passing the ball to Lingard just beyond half-way who literally did the rest).


Completely irrelevant to a discussion about overall performance. For example, when Rooney scored that famous bicycle kick against City most people agreed it came in a game where his overall performance was poor. It's possible to appraise overall performance in isolation from an individual moment of brilliance (if winning a header counts as a moment of brilliance)

Ibra could perform better overall, no one is denying that. He is however playing in a position that requires him to take chances and score goals to win the game - which he did. So even if the rest of his play was unremarkable, he did his job and it wasn't an easy goal to score. So I don't class that as a poor performance. I don't remember him missing other chances either (aside from Rooney blocking his shot in the second half).

Rooney's position/role requires output of assists AND goals. Quite a demanding responsibility for sure but he rarely looks like delivering that. You shouldn't need stats for that - it's just obvious watching the game how ineffectual he was. I mean in the stats you posted - 2/3 shots on target sounds okay. Except 2 of them (on-target) were literally right in the middle of the goal (piss easy for Kasper) and the third was a wild slice that nearly went for a throw-in. See how the stats don't exactly give you that image?

And just to clarify for the 1000th time - I genuinely do hope he sorts himself out and performs better.
 
Oh and something else to consider is Rooney's habitual slow start to the season. It's not forgivable, of course. It's bloody annoying and I keep hoping against hope he'll avoid getting so out of shape over the summer break but it is something we've seen in every single season at the club. Including his very best.

He's not gotten started at all for the last 2 seasons IMO, a little purple patch of goal scoring sure, but Jermaine Defoe has those as well. His all round game is poor these days because he's declined physically, and much like Gerrard his physicality was a huge part of his ability to affect games, nowadays he can't turn with the ball, his touch is horrendous and he hasn't got pace and power, often getting bullied off the ball quite easily. We are one of the 4 biggest clubs in world football, we should have an elite #10, not an unfit, physically spent has-been in such a pivotal role. Even going beyond Barca, Real and Bayern, just look at De Bruyne at City, Dybala at Juve and Griezmann at Atletico, that's the level we should be seeing in a United shirt.
 
The Rooney defence squad are back with that pathetic 'but xxx player was worse' argument. They'll rather put down the performance of a 35 year old new signing from a new league(who managed to score) to elevate the same shit perfomances we've been getting from Rooney for a while now. Next they'll be asking why people don't criticise academy players on their debut as much as we criticise our talismanic 250k/week unbenchable captain
 
The Rooney defence squad are back with that pathetic 'but xxx player was worse' argument. They'll rather put down the performance of a 35 year old new signing from a new league(who managed to score) to elevate the same shit perfomances we've been getting from Rooney for a while now. Next they'll be asking why people don't criticise academy players on their debut as much as we criticise our talismanic 250k/week unbenchable captain

:wenger:
 
You seriously think people will hold academy debutants to the same standards as the two best paid players in our squad?

Like I said :wenger:

Your already doing it to a new signing who hasn't even played a league game for us despite him having a better game than Rooney as far as everyone could see so its not a big stretch,some others like you already did it with Martial last season.
 
Your already doing it to a new signing who hasn't even played a league game for us despite him having a better game than Rooney as far as everyone could see so its not a big stretch,some others like you already did it with Martial last season.

:wenger:

Yeah that didn't happen either.

Although, of course, the fee we paid for Martial means that he also will be judged to different standards than academy debutants.

You're making this much more complicated than it needs to be.
 
:wenger:

Yeah that didn't happen either.

Although, of course, the fee we paid for Martial means that he also will be judged to different standards than academy debutants.

You're making this much more complicated than it needs to be.

It did, it wasn't you and i don't remember the game but someone did and was called out for it,it should be somewhere in the Rooney thread last season. My point is, if the only defense for Rooney becomes 'but x player was worse' be it academy players or new signings, then what's the point? Next game it'll be 'Rojo was worse',next Lingard.....etc
Who's making what more complicated than what?:wenger:
 
It did, it wasn't you and i don't remember the game but someone did and was called out for it,it should be somewhere in the Rooney thread last season. My point is, if the only defense for Rooney becomes 'but x player was worse' be it academy players or new signings, then what's the point? Next game it'll be 'Rojo was worse',next Lingard.....etc
Who's making what more complicated than what?:wenger:

I've broken it down for you, real simple, in the Ibrahimovic thread. Like quantum mechanics, only easier.
 
It is true that Zlatan was a bit disappointing yesterday but, IMO, there are good excuses for his performance: he's new to the team and the league, doesn't know well the game of his team-mates, etc. And he did his job eventually by scoring a class goal. He's nearly 35 and is a risky signing anyway. No such excuses for Rooney. To compare the stats of a No 10 and a No 9 is misleading.
 
It is true that Zlatan was a bit disappointing yesterday but, IMO, there are good excuses for his performance: he's new to the team and the league, doesn't know well the game of his team-mates, etc. And he did his job eventually by scoring a class goal. He's nearly 35 and is a risky signing anyway. No such excuses for Rooney. To compare the stats of a No 10 and a No 9 is misleading.

I'd agree with all of that, apart from the 10 vs 9 bit. They have both obviously been given a lot of freedom to roam. Hence we say them both dropping deep and both leading the line at various times. On a side note, I'm not sure that's helpful to the team but it was definitely happening.
 
I'd agree with all of that, apart from the 10 vs 9 bit. They have both obviously been given a lot of freedom to roam. Hence we say them both dropping deep and both leading the line at various times. On a side note, I'm not sure that's helpful to the team but it was definitely happening.

I think heat maps could show that Rooney played deeper than Zlatan and had different responsibilities. Zlatan likes to drop deep but he played as a striker yesterday whereas Rooney had to link midfield and attack.
 
I think heat maps could show that Rooney played deeper than Zlatan and had different responsibilities. Zlatan likes to drop deep but he played as a striker yesterday whereas Rooney had to link midfield and attack.

Their heat maps are actually eerily similar. Almost identical. Like I said, I'm not sure that's a good thing. Although I am pleased that the attacking players seem to have much more freedom to roam than they did last season.
 
Here you go. Found some stats.

Rooney
67 touches
3 key passes
1 assist
3 shots
2 shots on target
76% pass completion
1 Dribble
0 Aerials Won
2 Fouls Won
0 Dispossessed
1 Tackle
0 Interceptions
0 Clearances
0 Fouls

Ibra
47 touches
1 key passes
0 assist
2 shots
2 shots on target
66% pass completion
0 Dribble
2 Aerials Won
1 Fouls Won
3 Dispossessed
0 Tackle
0 Interceptions
2 Clearances
2 Fouls

Not a whole lot between them but fairly clear evidence that Rooney had the better overall performance. Which is interesting when you see such a consensus on here that he was absolutely diabolical yet so few people willing to be as harsh about our match-winner. Almost as though people are allowing a single moment to make all the difference when judging a player's performance over 90 minutes of football.
People won't be as harsh with the match winner because they haven't had to put up with him playing every game regardless of quality of performance. Rooney was terrible yesterday. Two of his key passes were probably the one to Lingard for the goal and the two yard tap to Ibrahimovic for the one cleared off the line. The stats also won't show the terrible quality of the passes he didn't complete or the difficulty of the ones he did. Nor is there one for horrendous first touch.
 
True, yeah. But you'd think people could judge the overall performance in isolation from that contribution. Or at least try to.
Overall performance was below average too. Unless of course one starts counting making a small pass without fluffing it as some kind of positive thing.

And as to why Rooney gets more flak is because he has been here so long and because he is marketed as the main man of the team.
When Fellaini screws up or elbows folks, people dont get horrified nowadays because we are expecting him to do such clumsy stuff at least couple of time every match. With Rooney the expectation are not average. Hence he gets more criticized.
 
Oh and something else to consider is Rooney's habitual slow start to the season. It's not forgivable, of course. It's bloody annoying and I keep hoping against hope he'll avoid getting so out of shape over the summer break but it is something we've seen in every single season at the club. Including his very best.
Not just that, but his notoriously poor starts to seasons after playing in a major tournament for England, although no metatarsal injury this time round.

Normally I'd be tempted to jump in defend Rooney, but honestly, I thought he was very poor yesterday, and I never feel that statistics should overrule my eyes in football. Of course, I've seen opinions on this place that Fellaini and Valencia actually had good enough performances yesterday that justify their places as starting 11 players. It's enough to make a Buddhist monk plan a mass murder. Come, come, nuclear bomb.
 
Their heat maps are actually eerily similar. Almost identical. Like I said, I'm not sure that's a good thing. Although I am pleased that the attacking players seem to have much more freedom to roam than they did last season.

Still, I can't agree that they played similar roles yesterday. The maps show where they made most of their touches. Zlatan didn't play much with the ball up front because he was isolated, therefore he mostly touched the ball when he dropped deeper. It is enough to watch the game to see that Rooney had a different role. It is not like both played as a No 9,5 or something.
 
True, yeah. But you'd think people could judge the overall performance in isolation from that contribution. Or at least try to.
The hypocrisy on your behalf is incredible, as whenever you argue the case for Rooney your main point always comes up to be his productivity irrespective of the shit he produces on the pitch. However, now he can't do even that you revert to downplaying others end product to make Rooney look better. :lol:
 
Quite a few callers slating Wayne on Paddy Crerand show. He's having none of it! :lol:
 
The hypocrisy on your behalf is incredible, as whenever you argue the case for Rooney your main point always comes up to be his productivity irrespective of the shit he produces on the pitch. However, now he can't do even that you revert to downplaying others end product to make Rooney look better. :lol:
I think this season they will be rolling out the fictitious 'others were as bad' default excuse to defend him deliberately overlooking the fact that a poor No.10 makes it difficult for the forward line to function as a fluid and effective unit. We are being expected to accept Rooney's performance because he was as bad as others when Rooney himself never seems to suffer the consequences of his performances like others have been made to.
 
Absolutely no way Rooney was better than Ibra, absolutely laughable. Ibra actually held the ball up quite well with his back towards the goal, waited for wingers to get them involved in play, had some nice flicks and tricks and scored a brilliant goal, won some headers. He did more than enough for someone with absolute no service, the service Rooney was supposed to give partially. He did feck all, pass completion stats or false dispossession stats dont change that.
 
Essentially the exchange between fellaini's barber and Pogue is almost exactly what I am talking about. I've taken a pretty non confrontational stance over it during the last couple of months. Pogue has pretty much gone over it so there is no need for a rehash.
 
And whoscore.com might count that as unsuccesful pass by Ibrahimovic. lol

Interesting that so many people are getting hung up on the dispossessed stat, while ignoring the overall picture. All the stats indicate that Ibrahimovic did not play as well as Rooney, yet only one of the two players is being crucified on here for their performance. Once again, I'm not saying Rooney played well. But it is predictable the way he gets singled out, even when he wasn't the worst performer on the day.
Because stats didn't talk about quality but quantity, Imagine if every manager only used to see his player stats then Bierhoff, Vieri, or even the great brazilian Ronaldo would be bunch of shit strikers and would rate Stéphane Guivarc'h who had more key passes as the best striker in the world.
 
Got a feeling he's gonna have a high scoring season this season.
 
Once again, confusing words about Wayne rooney from Mourinho.
Like his first press conference, he doesn't appear convinced of him as a 10.
 
Once again, confusing words about Wayne rooney from Mourinho.
Like his first press conference, he doesn't appear convinced of him as a 10.
He's a world class football manager, of course he's not convinced. He can see what the rest of us see when we watch Rooney.
 
Once again, confusing words about Wayne rooney from Mourinho.
Like his first press conference, he doesn't appear convinced of him as a 10.

Like many have said, he can't just drop him as it will have ramifications behind the scenes. It's a process™, with 3 games a week coming up in September Rooney will not play all of them. I think his plan is to let Wayne prove or disprove how good he is and then slowly phasing him out. On Sunday, I watched the match on FS1 and the commentator was actually saying Rooney has been poor, I hope to see the media being more honest about his performances from now on.
 
Putting aside if Rooney was shite or not against Leicester, the problem in our system is I'd say that #10 plays the most important role. It's up to manager whether he sees the #10 as a second striker or the last-third playmaker. If the #10 is playing 'okay' (although make no mistake, we're no longer judging Rooney on how #10 plays/should play but what Rooney's current level is) and we know what Rooney's 'okay' is then it means that the most important link in the team is pretty much broken.

It doesn't exempt other attackers from blame, no, but quite simply there is no place for Rooney-esque 'okay' game in #10 if we want this system to work, which simply translates into 'if we want to win games'. If a winger has an off game here it's cool, shit happens really but if a #10 has a shit game, you're pretty much fecked upfront.
 
It's a process, and no manager is gonna walk into the club and drop the club and England captain. Media and fans are strange things, and even if they think it's right, would still have field day making references to the arrogance of Jose. Not sure what message it would send to the hierarchy of the club and staff including the players, not to mention in his testimonial year. Don't forget that Rooney still 'sells' and not sure sponsors would be that happy either. It's a process and Rooney will inevitably live or die based on his performances, just not at the moment.

There's also the flip side, and he might start playing again cause on his day IMO he's the most complete footballer in the world.....don't take my word for it, many quotes from those who have played or still playing the game.
 
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