[Cassidy]

If he's covering the near post then he should have cleared it regardless of what run Welbeck makes

You're giving a lot of credit to Lindelof believing he's made all those calculations in his head just as a first time cross comes in. Actually I wouldn't put it past him as Lindelof is more of a hypothetical/zonal defender instead of proactively dealing with the problem first. It's exactly why he messed up because instead of adjusting his body to deal with the cross, he's more concerned about everything else.

Watch the clip again; he's defending empty space, relaxes his shoulder and is on his heels. He's not prepared for an aerial ball, which again he has lots of history with.

If this was Maguire, who 'missed' the header, everyone would quite rightly be questioning his poor approach/technique.

The height of the ball at the near post he cant clear it. Or I didnt think he could anyway.

Im not giving him credit for calculations you’re naking that up. I said quite explicitly that he is covering 2 possible areas where the cross can come the near and the beyond that to the middle. If he knew where the cross was going before hand then he could have just moved back and he clears it

“Defending empty space” yes thats your job if you’re not marking a man you defend the possible spaces they can run to especially if someone already has the man. Just so happens there was more than one here

 

[TheReligion]

If he's covering the near post then he should have cleared it regardless of what run Welbeck makes

You're giving a lot of credit to Lindelof believing he's made all those calculations in his head just as a first time cross comes in. Actually I wouldn't put it past him as Lindelof is more of a hypothetical/zonal defender instead of proactively dealing with the problem first. It's exactly why he messed up because instead of adjusting his body to deal with the cross, he's more concerned about everything else.

Watch the clip again; he's defending empty space, relaxes his shoulder and is on his heels. He's not prepared for an aerial ball, which again he has lots of history with.

If this was Maguire, who 'missed' the header, everyone would quite rightly be questioning his poor approach/technique.

Really he and Maguire should compliment each other shouldn't they

 

[SAFMUTD]

We conceded so its clearly his mistake, he should cover the whole box. If AWB misses his man is his job to recalculate and make up for that.

 

[A-man]

I think you’re micro analysing it a little bit too much. Maybe he had a chance to clear that aerial, maybe not, no one will ever be able to tell. And AWB should have done better but we know this is his weakness. In the end it doesnt matter if we have ten Maguires ready for aerials if we fail to put pressure on the opponent who get three seconds to aim their crosses. This is what we did so good against Chelsea who never one single time got time to aim their crosses.

 

[mancan92]

Wait, do people want Lindelöf to stand on top of Wan-Bissaka?

No they expect to position him a way where he doesn't clearly get underneath the ball.

 

[criticalanalysis]

The height of the ball at the near post he cant clear it. Or I didnt think he could anyway

Ok last post because I'm clearly getting wummed here.

He can't clear it because he fecked up by being poorly positoned for it. There's no ifs or buts. It's clear as day a basic error.

I wouldn't 'blame' the goal entirely on him but to pretend it was a 50/50 error, we should brush it under the carpet like he's outperformed in other areas and therefore it's forgiveable is just a load of bull.

This is not Bruno we're talking about.

 

[Cassidy]

No they expect to position him a way where he doesn't clearly get underneath the ball.

Thats impossible when you dont know where the cross is going. His positioning was fine he cant defend the whole box

 

[Cassidy]

Ok last post because I'm clearly getting wummed here.

He can't clear it because he fecked up by being poorly positoned for it. There's no ifs or buts. It's clear as day a basic error.

I wouldn't 'blame' the goal entirely on him but to pretend it was a 50/50 error, we should brush it under the carpet like he's outperformed in other areas and therefore it's forgiveable is just a load of bull.

This is not Bruno we're talking about.

So what position should he be in before the cross. Because now that doesnt make any sense to me. He should have been at the near post and leave a massive gap in behind between himself and AWB for Wellbeck to attack? And for the crosser to have an easy chance to put it there?

His positioning was ok. You can be beat by a cross it happens

 

[mancan92]

Thats impossible when you dont know where the cross is going. His positioning was fine he cant defend the whole box

He didn't have to defend the whole box. Just the 6 yard box

 

[Maagge]

No they expect to position him a way where he doesn't clearly get underneath the ball.

But you cannot know that before the cross comes in. What you can do is position yourself in a way where you and your teammates cover as much area as possible. If he goes closer to Wan-Bissaka there's suddenly a big gap which might be exploited between him and Maguire.

It's easy to say in hindsight that he could've stopped the goal by marking the same area as Wan-Bissaka, but then a cross to the front post would've been an even easier goal. Of course Wan-Bissaka was actually positioned quite well initially to deal with it but then didn't attack the ball (which is a shame because his issue has often been finding himself out of position initially and then having to make up for it).

 

[Cassidy]

He didn't have to defend the whole box. Just the 6 yard box

Usually 2 players do that

 

[Dve]

He didn't have to defend the whole box. Just the 6 yard box

The crosser went over his head, not because Lindelöf made a mistake, but because it was a very good cross, right in between Lindelöf and Bissaka. Difficult to defend against when you also get runs into the box.

 

[Solius]

No white text?

Nope. He was good. The cross went over his head and AWB let his man go across him.

 

[mancan92]

The crosser went over his head, not because Lindelöf made a mistake, but because it was a very good cross, right in between Lindelöf and Bissaka. Difficult to defend against when you also get runs into the box.

If maguire is there it doesn't happen. In fact how often do you see cb under the ball like that and miss it? Pretty much never except when they make a mistake

 

[criticalanalysis]

So what position should he be in before the cross. Because now that doesnt make any sense to me. He should have been at the near post and leave a massive gap in behind between himself and AWB for Wellbeck to attack? And for the crosser to have an easy chance to put it there?

His positioning was ok. You can be beat by a cross it happens

But you cannot know that before the cross comes in. What you can do is position yourself in a way where you and your teammates cover as much area as possible. If he goes closer to Wan-Bissaka there's suddenly a big gap which might be exploited between him and Maguire.

It's easy to say in hindsight that he could've stopped the goal by marking the same area as Wan-Bissaka, but then a cross to the front post would've been an even easier goal. Of course Wan-Bissaka was actually positioned quite well initially to deal with it but then didn't attack the ball (which is a shame because his issue has often been finding himself out of position initially and then having to make up for it).

Ok maybe this might be my fault for not explaining in plain simple terms.

What he did 'right': Lindelof was in the perfect position of space/area.

What he did 'wrong': Poor body approach/technique because once again he switched off (many previous examples) at the last second and assumed the ball would just drop to his head.

It's fine to be beat by a cross....if it was a crowded box and you have opposition players beside you or runners coming from multiple directions. This was not it. He was defending empty space and didn't anticipate a whipped cross at the near post from a first time ball in a largely empty penalty box i.e pretty much the only outcome in that situation.

You know the old Sunday league cliche of 'don't let the ball drop?' or goalkeeping advice 'cover the near post?'. It's not a question of having a subjective view, it's just basic footballing fundamentals based on probability.

I cannot make it any clearer. Let's just end it there.

 

[Cassidy]

Ok maybe this might be my fault for not explaining in plain simple terms.

What he did 'right': Lindelof was in the perfect position of space/area.

What he did 'wrong': Poor body approach/technique because once again he switched off (many previous examples) at the last second and assumed the ball would just drop to his head.

It's fine to be beat by a cross....if it was a crowded box and you have opposition players beside you or runners coming from multiple directions. This was not it. He was defending empty space and didn't anticipate a whipped cross at the near post from a first time ball in a largely empty penalty box i.e pretty much the only outcome in that situation.

You know the old Sunday league cliche of 'don't let the ball drop?' or goalkeeping advice 'cover the near post?'. It's not a question of having a subjective view, it's just basic footballing fundamentals based on probability.

I cannot make it any clearer. Let's just end it there.

Poor body position - this is the part Im not getting. From where he is and the trajectory of the cross I dont see how he wins it. But maybe I am wrong but I dont see it, especially not near post.
He also didnt switch off by looking to see where Wellbeck was because he did that before the cross

You can also be beat by a cross when its played out of the zone you’re covering

 

[Ekeke]

Really he and Maguire should compliment each other shouldn't they

No. And even if they did, they arent always there to cover each other.

Its completely normal for a CB to cover a fullback who is not back in position having been involved higher up the pitch. Smalling did it all the time for Valencia, Vidic did it all the time for Evra. A couple of times a game its to be expected.

In this instance Shaw is out of position so Maguire wants to change his position to try and cover the space thats been left open.

So there are going to be times when only 1 CB is going to be in the box and hes going to have to dominate the area and deal with things. The fullback on that side can obviously help but if not the CB then who is going to deal with a 6'2 striker?

So when you have everyone back defending in an organized manner and you never attack and lose shape, you can probably get by with 1 CB who is strong in the air and another who isnt the best. But as soon as the CB moves to cover his fullback, the other CB is out of luck and needs to earn his money

 

[Cassidy]

No. And even if they did, they arent always there to cover each other.

Its completely normal for a CB to cover a fullback who is not back in position having been involved higher up the pitch. Smalling did it all the time for Valencia, Vidic did it all the time for Evra. A couple of times a game its to be expected.

In this instance Shaw is out of position so Maguire wants to change his position to try and cover the space thats been left open.

So there are going to be times when only 1 CB is going to be in the box and hes going to have to dominate the area and deal with things. The fullback on that side can obviously help but if not the CB then who is going to deal with a 6'2 striker?

So when you have everyone back defending in an organized manner and you never attack and lose shape, you can probably get by with 1 CB who is strong in the air and another who isnt the best. But as soon as the CB moves to cover his fullback, the other CB is out of luck and needs to earn his money

He would have had to swap positions wit AWB since he came from the back post area ( Good positioning by Wellbeck)

 

[TheReligion]

No. And even if they did, they arent always there to cover each other.

Its completely normal for a CB to cover a fullback who is not back in position having been involved higher up the pitch. Smalling did it all the time for Valencia, Vidic did it all the time for Evra. A couple of times a game its to be expected.

In this instance Shaw is out of position so Maguire wants to change his position to try and cover the space thats been left open.

So there are going to be times when only 1 CB is going to be in the box and hes going to have to dominate the area and deal with things. The fullback on that side can obviously help but if not the CB then who is going to deal with a 6'2 striker?

So when you have everyone back defending in an organized manner and you never attack and lose shape, you can probably get by with 1 CB who is strong in the air and another who isnt the best. But as soon as the CB moves to cover his fullback, the other CB is out of luck and needs to earn his money

That's a fair point when it look at it like that.

What's the answer. A back three with Mctominay RCB as with Scotland?

 

[Cassidy]

If maguire is there it doesn't happen. In fact how often do you see cb under the ball like that and miss it? Pretty much never except when they make a mistake

This is silly now. Maguire has also been undernesth crosses into the box where we conceded this season.

 

[Marwood]

I don't think he was at fault for the goal(nobody was, just a good goal) but he was typically Lindelof for the Welbeck pen incident.

So slow in closing the guy who crossed. Rather than just deal with it he waited for Shaw to get back. When it was clear Shaw couldn't he finally reacted but was too late.

He's a good player but has this huge flaw of being a defender who's reluctant to take charge of a situation.

 

[A-man]

That's a fair point when it look at it like that.

What's the answer. A back three with Mctominay RCB as with Scotland?

The answer? To continue like this. This was the first goal we conceded in 5 PL matches. We have 6 clean sheets in our last 10 PL matches. Probably the most solid defence in the PL at the moment, why play like Scotland?

 

[TheReligion]

The answer? To continue like this. This was the first goal we conceded in 5 PL matches. We have 6 clean sheets in our last 10 PL matches. Probably the most solid defence in the PL at the moment, why play like Scotland?

Make it stronger?

Shaw Maguire Victor Mctominay AWB

Could work you know. Modern and progressive.

 

[ivaldo]

Space doesn't score goals. It's somewhat similar to the Sevilla goal where you need to open up your body shape so you aren't overcommitted either way.

We saw a goal from an almost identical position scored by Sevilla in the final, where the CB was in the deeper position many thought Lindelof should've played, the CF made a blind side near post run and tucked it in. Space doesn't score goals, but good strikers don't stand still either.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Good performance.

 

[Dve]

If maguire is there it doesn't happen. In fact how often do you see cb under the ball like that and miss it? Pretty much never except when they make a mistake

Pretty often. As a defender, you have to mark in front of your man on crossers, and hence there is always room right above your head for a ball to find the player behind you. If the crosser is precise, there´s sometimes not much you can do.

 

[ivaldo]

No they expect to position him a way where he doesn't clearly get underneath the ball.

And what happens when he's too deep and the cross is shallower? If he drops any deeper he leaves a gaping whole in the centre of the goal that is any strikers wet dream. Unfortunately, it was a very good cross which needed AWB to do his job to deal with it.

 

[A-man]

Make it stronger?

Shaw Maguire Victor Mctominay AWB

Could work you know. Modern and progressive.

I’m not so worried about the guys at the back at the moment. Defence is solid. More worried about the guys at the front.

 

[criticalanalysis]

Poor body position - this is the part Im not getting. From where he is and the trajectory of the cross I dont see how he wins it. But maybe I am wrong but I dont see it, especially not near post.
He also didnt switch off by looking to see where Wellbeck was because he did that before the cross

You can also be beat by a cross when its played out of the zone you’re covering

He should be facing the ball head on or getting goal side. Look at the very last second before the ball is whipped. He almost stops on his heels and then stutters step towards the cross like it's some suprise outcome.

He's so concerned about AWB, runners into the box and everything else but the near post that his focus is all over the place.

Howtf can anyone watch this and say it wasn't his fault he was badly (body) positioned for it. It's a decent cross (in that it hits the danger areas) but it's not some Beckham delivery whipped at 100mph ball, whilst he was jostling with another player.

AWB obviously doesn't cover himself in glory but if it was me, I would be mad at my centre back for failing to clear an unchallenged flat ball at the near post.

He literally jumps under it! Are we micro analysising? Perhaps but in this case it's fully justified to call it out on a player who has history of being poor in this one aspect.

 

[SemiPro]

Yes you’re definitely micro analysing. There’s absolutely no reason why AWB should be letting Welbeck get across him like that. It’s that simple.

 

[Sylar]

I can't believe that people (actually I can as it's some of the regulars) are trying to find ways to fault lindelof for that goal. If awb does his job of marking the man properly (even putting him off from getting a clean header) it's not an issue

The cross was really good but lindelof had to come across once Maguire came across too.

Unless people want lindelof to get deeper and thus causing a huge gap between him and Maguire (if he did that he would get rightly blamed)

 

[arthurka]

No they expect to position him a way where he doesn't clearly get underneath the ball.

Exactly, cover the space behind when we are attacking. He clearly didn't cover himself in any glory.

 

[Bebestation]

He should be facing the ball head on or getting goal side. Look at the very last second before the ball is whipped. He almost stops on his heels and then stutters step towards the cross like it's some suprise outcome.

He's so concerned about AWB, runners into the box and everything else but the near post that his focus is all over the place.

Howtf can anyone watch this and say it wasn't his fault he was badly (body) positioned for it. It's a decent cross (in that it hits the danger areas) but it's not some Beckham delivery whipped at 100mph ball, whilst he was jostling with another player.

AWB obviously doesn't cover himself in glory but if it was me, I would be mad at my centre back for failing to clear an unchallenged flat ball at the near post.

He literally jumps under it! Are we micro analysising? Perhaps but in this case it's fully justified to call it out on a player who has history of being poor in this one aspect.

This is how I saw it.

Lindelof was unchallenged. He jumped for the ball like he could reach it and there was no reason why Lindelof couldn't be better positioned unchallenged than Wan Bissaka.

For Wan Bissaka and Lindelof to be on a line AND to have both Lindelof and Wan Bissaka jumping at the same time trying to defend the same slow cross isnt going to happen looking like an orchestra.

 

[kundalini]

He should be facing the ball head on or getting goal side. Look at the very last second before the ball is whipped. He almost stops on his heels and then stutters step towards the cross like it's some suprise outcome.

He's so concerned about AWB, runners into the box and everything else but the near post that his focus is all over the place.

Howtf can anyone watch this and say it wasn't his fault he was badly (body) positioned for it. It's a decent cross (in that it hits the danger areas) but it's not some Beckham delivery whipped at 100mph ball, whilst he was jostling with another player.

AWB obviously doesn't cover himself in glory but if it was me, I would be mad at my centre back for failing to clear an unchallenged flat ball at the near post.

He literally jumps under it! Are we micro analysising? Perhaps but in this case it's fully justified to call it out on a player who has history of being poor in this one aspect.

Wan-Bissaka's fault for me. Not helped by Shaw's minimal effort to stop the cross. And Pogba giving the ball away cheaply.

Lindelof is fine. His starting position looks ok to me; no idea what the instructions are. The cross went over his head despite his jump. He didn't have time to position himself so he could get his head on the cross. That's clear if you look at where he was stood when the cross came in and the distance he covers to his position as he attempts to head the ball.

 

[Fussmeister]

We have all seen Vic jump higher then that. His timing on the jump is not the best but great cross tbh.

AWB has one job and that is Welbeck and he lost him.
If Vic had was in AWBs position he been slaughtered

 

[Lappen]

For me its on AWB, he needs to do better.

But I don't like the feeling that Lindlöf don't get in there with some killer instinct... He trys but something feels wrong, maybe his backinjury holds him back. He doesn't jump very high does he!
Even Shaw is a bit relaxed in the situation.
And Pogba was sloppy.

 

[Jim Beam]

His positioning is absolutely fine, his anticipation could be better and he most likely clears that if he makes one step back at the time when the cross is hit. But, since AWB was in comatose state, the prize definitely goes to him.

 

[Cassidy]

We have all seen Vic jump higher then that. His timing on the jump is not the best but great cross tbh.

AWB has one job and that is Welbeck and he lost him.
If Vic had was in AWBs position he been slaughtered

He is clearly back peddling before the jump in an attempt to reach the cross. You wont jump as high like that, the cross was just beyond the position he took up

 

[Cassidy]

He should be facing the ball head on or getting goal side. Look at the very last second before the ball is whipped. He almost stops on his heels and then stutters step towards the cross like it's some suprise outcome.

He's so concerned about AWB, runners into the box and everything else but the near post that his focus is all over the place.

Howtf can anyone watch this and say it wasn't his fault he was badly (body) positioned for it. It's a decent cross (in that it hits the danger areas) but it's not some Beckham delivery whipped at 100mph ball, whilst he was jostling with another player.

AWB obviously doesn't cover himself in glory but if it was me, I would be mad at my centre back for failing to clear an unchallenged flat ball at the near post.

He literally jumps under it! Are we micro analysising? Perhaps but in this case it's fully justified to call it out on a player who has history of being poor in this one aspect.

We just have to agree to disagree. Yes he jumps under the ball, since he was clearly back peddling. The ball also wasnt flat

 

[SwedishFish]

AWB needs to track his bloody defender, yes Lindelöf should reach that with his jump but if AWB loses his man then that's the cause of the goal.

Either way, I thought he played well for the rest of the game.