Did Leeds create a single noteworthy chance? All our defenders did what they needed to.
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- 17
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He has been more involved but he has the ability and more importantly, the opportunity to do more. Your point about the midfielders is exactly why I mentioned it. Leeds were more concerned with pressing our attackers and midfielders on touch and in the middle of the field i.e they deliberately left space to our defenders as they didn't want to over commit and leave space behind. Hence why it's more important for the likes of Lindelofs to take more responsibility on the ball.
It's not a case of containment because when we say 'the defence did what they needed to do', what we're actually acknowledging is that the whole team played a really good defensive game. It's not like each game the defence is single handledly holding the fort and the rest of the team is 30 yards away. We are a really strong defensive unit, man to man, whilst sacrificing other aspects.
For the centre backs, most of the defending was in front of them and it was a midfield battle. Therefore when the opportunity arises, it's natural to ask our defenders to chip in a bit more with progressive passing.
I like your point regarding team defence, and according to Opta, Leeds haven’t produced fewer goal attempts at Elland Road in three years (six). So it’s a story about a defensively impressive away game, but also about a Leeds that havelearned how to shut up shop really well with their man marking against the top teams.
I agree that leaves more to expect from the defenders offensively, and tactically, it’s clear that that means, in prioritized order: 1. Shaw, 2. Wan Bissaka, 3. Maguire, 4. Lindelöf and 5. Henderson.
Shaw produced a wild number of key passes and AWB played his best attacking game this year. Maguire went into the last third several time, plus had two chances on goal. Lindelöf’s task is more to play long balls from deep and keep a high line and win the ball back early and spread it to the wing or to the left.
All in all I think the defence did a good collective and individual job, and that what kept us from victory was a little sharpness from the attacking six in and around the box. Tactics worked, but precision wasn’t on par.
Which we saw from Lindelof on several occasions. He can't do much more than put our CF through on goal, then nearly do it again 5 minutes later.
Congratulations to Victor, baby on the way.
Fights crime. Runs our defence. Impregnates woman. Is there anything he can't do?
I agree with the order and perhaps I may have understood wrongly but I don't agree it's by 'design' or 'tactical order'. I just believe Lindelof doesn't involve himself as much as I believe he can and should. I mean even your examples of what you think he does, he doesn't actually do particularly well in a proactive sense aside from the long balls. He doesn't aggressively play a high line, win early balls or spread the play. It's very one paced and safe, which is fine but then you contrast him with Maguire, who was carrying the ball over medium distances and being pretty much the default playmaker from the back etc. Some good long balls aside, Lindelof defers to Maguire and to others a bit too much for my liking.
It's not like Lindelof was the last man and the other 9 outfield players was camped in the opposition half.
He can play more faster and sharper passes to feet, carry the ball more and push the line higher (especially as Leeds wasn't pressing us high) etc.
It’s partly a question of tastes, I think, though I concede that he could (and can) play sharper and quicker passes in much of the general distribution. I do think, though, that it’s a question of tactics more than preferance both that the full backs are expected to move up early against sitting defenses, and that Maguire is supposed to/expected to carry the ball up more than Lindelöf is, whom then will, in a way, often be the last man. This is of course because Maguire is better and more confident at it, but I’d be shocked if Ole doesn’t tell Maguire to look for openings when we pin the opposition back, whereas Lindelöf is told to be sure the space behind is secured when Maguire goes up.
Most of what you've highlighted are fairly basic and general plays that every footballer should be doing e.g cover for each other and run/pass into space when it is there etc. Neither of us know for sure what Ole instructs the players to do but I don't buy Lindelof is told to 'play the last man, sit and sweep up' especially more than what he is meant to, as any decent footballer should be doing anyways. That's just his natural/default style.
Ole has general tactics and a certain philosophy but players are given a lot of freedom (too much in my opinion) and a lack of structure in the 'patterns of plays'.
And that's where my slight annoyance is with Lindelof's game. I'm repeating myself but you have to understand when i use the words 'opportunity' and 'proactive'. When the occassions presents itself like in the Leeds game for a bit more urgency or in other games (Burnley) where he needs to aggressively close down the channels, he needs to show more for me to say he had a 'good game'. Right now, he's very consistent in his game and that should applauded but he's almost playing to the field and only what's in front of him; not stamping his own authority/ability.
Fair enough, I guess we’ve got as far as we get in agreement so far.
Solskjær is as I understand him a big fan of relations and improvisation in the attacking play, but much more pro organisation and fixed patterns in the zonal defensive play. That CB’s have different role descriptions and instructions both in attacking and defensive phases I think you’ll find is typical of him also when he was at Molde. You are right that we’re left with much guesswork and speculation as to how much, though for me, my impression is that understanding this part of the game is Bailly’s biggest challenge aside from injuries, and also part of what takes time for Tuanzebe. Whereas Lindelöf, who is used to this kind of thinking from Seedish NT, excels at it.
I’m guessing that quite a few (not all) of the things that annoys you with him, is part of what looks good to me, and vice versa. Which is mo big deal. Interesting to have a discussion with different viewpoints anyhow
Both himself and Maguire have benefited from Dean playing behind them in my opinion, you can actually see the reassurance in both their performances knowing they've got a keeper who will not only command their 6 yard both but balls over the top as well.
Can't believe it's taken so long for the coach staff to not see this earlier.
Can't believe it's taken so long for the coach staff to not see this earlier.
I think Lindelofs passing is going unnoticed. I saw that clip of Kroos playing a pass from deep to Vinicius all over social media for a few days.
Lindelofs made better passes than that to rashford at least three times this season (twice leading to goals if I’m not mistaken) but doesn’t seem to get much of a mention.
His and Maguires passing ability from the back is crucial for our buildup in terms of stepping into midfield and I don’t think they get the praise they deserve for what they give us - Lindelof in particular.
Lindelofs made better passes than that to rashford at least three times this season (twice leading to goals if I’m not mistaken) but doesn’t seem to get much of a mention.
His and Maguires passing ability from the back is crucial for our buildup in terms of stepping into midfield and I don’t think they get the praise they deserve for what they give us - Lindelof in particular.
Man Utd 6:2 Roma
That should put to bed that Lindelof is worse than Smalling.
Not so much to do for our four defenders tonight, but I think they could have done better at the goal and also left some gaps in the centre at one or two occasions. In the end, Roma created one chance in the whole game so they couldn’t have been too bad.
Looked like he was running in quicksand at times tonight, he'll have been glad to see the back of Spinarooni.
A bit of an off night but the whole defence looked sloppy at times.
It was most obvious for their second goal when Lindy was dragged out position to defend (perfectly fine) but nobody went into the space to cover and Dzeko scored.
It was most obvious for their second goal when Lindy was dragged out position to defend (perfectly fine) but nobody went into the space to cover and Dzeko scored.
Yeah, did think the defence looked a bit out of sorts. I'm just going to be a child and blame de Gea and move on.
Europa League Semi Final, slow to close down a player in the channel with minimal pressure on the ball, letting them waltz 10-15 yards into our half, which eventually leads to a goal conceded.
Where have I seen that before?
2:28
Same thing against Burnley at the end of the game.
So passive and poor on that passage of play.
We're told he's an intelligent player, who is always covering for AWB's 'poor positioning'. The closer truth is that when he doesn't have AWB 5-10 yards from him, he's out of his comfort zone when he has to press space on the half way line. AWB does have poor lapses of positioning and goes on walkies but that's exasperated by the fact Lindelof is terrified of actually pushing into that space behind AWB. He will happily let AWB go wonder 50 yards in front and instead of get closer, he'll backpeddle into his own half so the gap is even bigger and simultaneously invite the pressure.
Where have I seen that before?
2:28
Same thing against Burnley at the end of the game.
So passive and poor on that passage of play.
We're told he's an intelligent player, who is always covering for AWB's 'poor positioning'. The closer truth is that when he doesn't have AWB 5-10 yards from him, he's out of his comfort zone when he has to press space on the half way line. AWB does have poor lapses of positioning and goes on walkies but that's exasperated by the fact Lindelof is terrified of actually pushing into that space behind AWB. He will happily let AWB go wonder 50 yards in front and instead of get closer, he'll backpeddle into his own half so the gap is even bigger and simultaneously invite the pressure.
Top post, mate. He's completely at fault for that goal. You should request for a name change to brilliantanalysis.
Kids. This is what an agenda looks like.
I just cannot believe you've made this post. This is exactly what a CB should be doing in this position.
It's a bit sad, really. Bottom of the barrel stuff.
It's either that or the guy genuinely doesn't understand what needs to be done there.
Awful today, back to his worst.
Passing was shambolic.
Passing was shambolic.
You're not wrong exactly but I don't think it was an issue. He went ahead and defended well and blocked the ball coming in. Other players didn't defend the open space.
I'm sitting here thinking running to defend a ball 50 yards up the pitch is a bit extreme tbh.
He's not good enough. Physically poor and his reading of play isn't quick enough to compensate for it. A poor man's Evans if anything.
It was a catalogue of errors, I wouldn't pin it him entirely on him.
No pressure on the ball, guarding the player for a double team with McT and letting him come nearly all the way into our penalty box like he's prime Messi?
My agenda is that he is consistently passive in these situations and takes the lowest risk option with detrimental effect. Once the player came into our half, it was there to be won or for Lindelof to get touch tight and force thim to check his run and goes backwards.
Your failure to acknowledge this is enabling and normalise such poor defending. In isolation it's harsh but when it happens so often, it's undenable he is poor this aspect.
You dislike the fact I can rationally pinpoint and critisise a player you like.
He shouldn't be pressuring the ball!!! It's a needless risk. A clever touch and he's in behind with no cover. His job was to slow the attack. He denied the opportunity to cut in on his favoured foot, he showed him to the byline and denied the cross and gave his teammate the opportunity to get back into shape. Come nearly all the way into our box? What am I reading? It's not 'passive,' it's 'intelligent.' Frankly, any CB who tries to win the ball in that situation has no right being a CB.
Someone clearly hasn’t played much ball.
Eh? He was fine in that second clip, he is delaying the attack and if he dives in like a chump the lad is through.
Either way, it's weird to point to a situation in which a defender did everything right as an example of the problem with him.
It's "he's too passive" taken to the extreme, where even in a situation where the passive approach is the correct one, it's the wrong one when it's Lindelöf doing it.
I can understand those who think he might be too passive. I don't necessarily agree with it, but there's an element of credibility to that stance. But, as you say, to highlight this as an example of poor 'passive' defending just doesn't cut it.
I would say his biggest weakness is his lack of aggression in certain situations. That should not be confused with passive. The situation discussed; he was absolutely not passive, as he was actively following the attacker and steering him away from the goal and delaying the attack. I don’t think he should have been more aggressive in this situation either. If someone had marked “his” space we would’ve been fine.
Yup I agree with that correction. He absolutely was not passive. He controlled the player very well.
I really think people confuse playing non-aggressively with passive bit those are two different things.
That was an exaggerated example I'm using to point the criticism AWB gets, which is then used to elevate Lindelof's 'intelligent covering', when acutally they both have problems.
Why do you both think I am expecting him to goes all guns blazing and dive in like a chump, prime example being David Luiz? No, he should have been more touch tight and pressuring the player to the corner flag or the touchline. Literally defending 101 basics. The player dribbled past McT (who made a mistake and over commited) from his own half and got to edge of our penalty box unchallenged in an almost vertical line! There was such little pressure, McT came from behind and tried to make a tackle ffs.
If falling back 30 yards, which in turn invites pressure because the player's team mates can advance in our half and ends up with a simple block, which we don't end up winning the ball afterwards = 'controlling the player' and 'delaying the attack' then you've got low standards and expectations.
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Conversely, making a tackle or getting touch tight doesn't mean being aggressive and likewise not making a tackle/being patient doesn't equal being intelligent or being in control.
I really think people elevate and confuse 'delaying a player' as some wonderful piece of play when it is quite simply just a low risk choice.
You can be passive making a first time, half-hearted, lazy tackle and you can be passive by patiently tracking a player's run.
In the situations I've highlighted above, Sevilla, Burnley and Roma, Lindelof was passive and non-aggressive, which ended in the opposition easily advance in our half and/or play a dangerous ball.
From this:
You're all over the place.
To this:
Last time I checked, he'd have to fall back more than 30 yards to get him to the corner flag...
You're all over the place.
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