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Kounde has worse aerial duels won % compared to Lindelof
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You are making a strong statement just to piss on a United player in a United forum. Of course you would need to back it up. You wrote:
“this is not the only situation where he got outmuscled, in fact it happens in every game and we just concede for fun with him in the side because of his weakness”
If that was true it wouldn’t be so hard to make a list of goals we have conceded because Lindelof got outmuscled. Instead the only thing you could find was one match from last season where we definitely did not concede because Lindelof was outmuscled.
Of the players on the list, Kounde and Torres are the ones I’ve watched the least, so I’m only going by stats.
This season, Kounde has won a little more aerials than Lindelof, but also lost more. But agree, on the list of the defenders he is the only one who seem a little better in the air. However we don’t know how that translates to PL.
It’s interesting that most of the defenders people want are weaker in the air.
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You should go by % won over number of aerials. If you win 3 but lose 3 you’re not exactly dominant.
Konate is the most aerially dominant in the 99th percentile for aerial duels so I would class him an upgrade on Lindelof aerially.
This is kind of my point. I’m all for improving the squad with this aerially dominant, mobile and ball playing CB that we all want I absolutely would love to see that kind of CB at United.
So where are they. Surely someone can point one out? The closest is probably Konate at this point but he’s had injuries and also makes mistakes that Lindelof would be slaughtered on here for so again.
Who do you pick? If you said VVD I’d agree in a heartbeat but that’s not happening so who in world football does that?
If I could care any less, I would. I don't want to watch Blind play 38 games in the PL and I'm glad I no longer have to.
You never had to
I don’t fully agree. It is important to challenge, even if you lose. There was a short defender in Malmö FF who once said: “I’m a short guy, I can never win aerials. But I’m not gonna loose them.” And he was excellent at that. He lost them statistically, but the opponent didn’t win them. It why these stats alone doesn’t give the full picture here. Also; If you only challenge the ones you are sure to win, you will get good aerial stats.
I seriously don’t know. I like Lindelof and Maguire, surprise surprise.. but of course we can be upgrade. Imo the most important is that we get someone at the same level as today’s CBs, who has good injury record, who has played PL, and who can cover also for Maguire, not someone who can only compliment him. That would rule out Konaté and Kounde, but otherwise they look the most interesting.
I don’t like the idea to bring in an older experienced CB. Ramos is one of my all time favourite CBs and I’d love to see him play for us, but I don’t think it would be good in the long run.
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Considering were one of the biggest clubs in the world that have an extensive set of scouts and multi million pound recruitment set up why would you expect a bunch of fans on a forum to be able to answer this, i feel like if no one can name one then it validates some kind of point you are trying to get across ? There are such defenders above out there, we as a club however are just useless at finding them.
I wont spend any more time here, sorry. it´s like asking to get a footage of bruno loosing balls conceding possesion form last 6month, first of all it´s useless argument because you know how wasteful he can be so there is no need to back that up, second I wont be spending my precious time editing some footage frrom a match or even googling it. Proof proof proof! I can hear kids voice screaming that. There´s no proof so didn´t happen, yeah mate:-)
If even after this game you didn´t see it then sorry and so long.
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Perhaps a combination someone who tries and succeeds a lot is better than someone who tries a few and succeeds a lot Konate is the one who stands out as tries and succeeds
I like them both too. I don’t think either is the best in the world or anything but I seriously would struggle to find that perfect player everyone wants. Everyone wants VVD MK2.
My point is people clearly have in their minds exactly what they want and yet nobody has yet shown a player that comfortably displays all those qualities. A player that could do all of that would stand out enough that it wouldn’t be too hard to spot.
People are wanting someone who doesn’t exist and so will be disappointed by any transfer in the long run.
My point is that we have to accept no perfect player is out there so we need to focus on is there a better option whose flaws we are happy to accept? I’d argue based on how fans on here treat Maguire and Lindelof that no player will live up to those standards.
pheww, you really are waste of time, sorry, I hope in next life you are born as someone who get to play football for few years, especially in defense and understands basics of the game, because clearly from watching football from a sofa eating crisps you didnt get much knowledge. Or perhaps you are from Sweden or have any other attraction to the player so the agenda is high, in that case it´s even more sad to defend your opinion like that. Have fun here.
If your statement was true, that we concede a lot of goals because Lindelof was outmuscled, I am sure you would find it easy to back it up with some examples. Now you can’t.
Thing is, I’ve got a good memory. I wouldn’t say we have conceded many goals at all because of Lindelof being outmuscled. Because we haven’t.
Nice straw man there bud, why bring Bruno into the conversation at all? I think it's best you do leave this thread because you offer nothing to the conversation.
Konate. Next?
they don’t have to be perfect they just have to be an upgrade on lindelof, which is not a high bar.
Pretty sure he is from Sweden, which makes his opinion biased
The idea was someone who was better in the air.
Not weaker.
With the same logic anybody from England would be biased if they thought Maguire was better than Lindelof in the air?
It is easy to make hateful statements about how bad a player is, but when asked to back it up, it’s not so easy any more. Problem is that this ignorant statements, repeated again and again by the same small group of posters, put the focus on the wrong things.
I think we can close the books and agree that Lindelof being outmuscled has not cost us many goals.
It’s predictable that a lot of strong opinions come out of the woodwork after a weak game, after most of the season it’s been the case that Lindelöf has been our best defender bar Shaw.
The biggest problem this season has been that Maguire has dropped his level, IMO. Even vs West Brom, the one who actually makes a mistake to allow for the situation that shouldn’t have stood as a goal, is Maguire, because he drops deep when he should have pulled out, allowing WBA a very good crossing opportunity. Lindelöf actually reads the play well, gets ahead of his attacker, who unfortunatelyelbows him in the head, then blinds him, with the hearty blessing of Jon Moss. Yet some will single Victor out for that.
Lindelöf had a bad game for me primarily for being outmuscled/-foxed too easily twice by That same wrestler. It should be said, his best chance of the game came when he wrought down Harry, which also should have been a blatant free kick.
Normally though, Lindelöf has several attributes. His concentration is very good, and if people who scrutinize him would do the same leg work on Maguire, Van Dijk, Upamecano, Varane or John Stones, they would probably begin to wonder how many ‘above average’ CBs there actually exists (sic).
He reads opposition attackers pretty well, but he reads his co defenders brilliantly, which is as important. If anyone have noticed how Maguire-Bailly or Maguire Tuanzebe have appeared this season, at times it’s been like watching a seasick accordeon.
He is quite fast and quite comfortable on the ball, but not among the best. He is aerially ok, no more, no less.
The premier league is back to being the strongest league in the world for the time being, and when you think about the defensively beat teams the last couple of seasons, you have City who has gone full defensive organization (creds to Pep for that), Liverpool who had a three man engine room ahead of their back four, and Wolves and Mouspurs who have had nine at the back for spells of defensive sobriety.
Bar the brilliant but glorified VVD, I fail to see other CBs in the league who would definitely make United and Swedens back fours more resilient over night.
I love seeing Bailly on form, but I don’t equally love to see Wan Bissaka and Maguire try to relate to the Eric DuJour. I had hopes for Axel, but his confidence atm seems to mach his experience closer than his talent. I’d be happy with a definite world class addition at CB, but I’m not as confident as others that Konate, De Ligt, Upamecano or other flavours of the day would prove to be short term solidification. Part of the problem of our defence is after all our front four, another part is the back one.
I’d love to see improvements, but I can’t see the fast track as easily as some here do.
The biggest problem this season has been that Maguire has dropped his level, IMO. Even vs West Brom, the one who actually makes a mistake to allow for the situation that shouldn’t have stood as a goal, is Maguire, because he drops deep when he should have pulled out, allowing WBA a very good crossing opportunity. Lindelöf actually reads the play well, gets ahead of his attacker, who unfortunatelyelbows him in the head, then blinds him, with the hearty blessing of Jon Moss. Yet some will single Victor out for that.
Lindelöf had a bad game for me primarily for being outmuscled/-foxed too easily twice by That same wrestler. It should be said, his best chance of the game came when he wrought down Harry, which also should have been a blatant free kick.
Normally though, Lindelöf has several attributes. His concentration is very good, and if people who scrutinize him would do the same leg work on Maguire, Van Dijk, Upamecano, Varane or John Stones, they would probably begin to wonder how many ‘above average’ CBs there actually exists (sic).
He reads opposition attackers pretty well, but he reads his co defenders brilliantly, which is as important. If anyone have noticed how Maguire-Bailly or Maguire Tuanzebe have appeared this season, at times it’s been like watching a seasick accordeon.
He is quite fast and quite comfortable on the ball, but not among the best. He is aerially ok, no more, no less.
The premier league is back to being the strongest league in the world for the time being, and when you think about the defensively beat teams the last couple of seasons, you have City who has gone full defensive organization (creds to Pep for that), Liverpool who had a three man engine room ahead of their back four, and Wolves and Mouspurs who have had nine at the back for spells of defensive sobriety.
Bar the brilliant but glorified VVD, I fail to see other CBs in the league who would definitely make United and Swedens back fours more resilient over night.
I love seeing Bailly on form, but I don’t equally love to see Wan Bissaka and Maguire try to relate to the Eric DuJour. I had hopes for Axel, but his confidence atm seems to mach his experience closer than his talent. I’d be happy with a definite world class addition at CB, but I’m not as confident as others that Konate, De Ligt, Upamecano or other flavours of the day would prove to be short term solidification. Part of the problem of our defence is after all our front four, another part is the back one.
I’d love to see improvements, but I can’t see the fast track as easily as some here do.
My worry is I see a lot of people saying we need an aggressive front footed defender which for me is not what we need at all.
We need someone who will cover Maguire and sweep up behind him who is fast, has patience and can organise Harry, because he’s just not that great of a defender. In a weird way I think he is the big problem in defence because he makes so many slight errors or over compensates meaning his partner has to be extra aware of what Harry is cocking up at any particular moment. In a way I feel sorry for Lindelof although agreeing he maybe isn’t the man for the job I reckon better more stable partner and he’d still do good at any top club. I didn’t want either of them but they are here now so what to do.
I just about made the top 10!
"Small group of posters who focus on the wrong things" guys.
We're the one with an agenda.
I'm out.
Sammysky rings to mind.
"Small group of posters who focus on the wrong things" guys.
We're the one with an agenda.
I'm out.
Sammysky rings to mind.
I understand all the "he's too weak/not aggressive enough'" arguments.
But what happened to him on that West Brom goal was a foul.
But what happened to him on that West Brom goal was a foul.
I don't understand why this is such a hard concept to grasp for so many people.
Many people see it as Lindelof.. weak.. proof
Teams target him game after game because he's soft, weak and passive and everybody knows it, watch whenever a team has a goal kick and see where their striker is, most people won't notice but I see it everytime. Even if he makes a mistake that leads to a loss, a goal or neither and we still win, he's gonna start where if that was Bailly in those same scenarios, it's back to the bench. The worst part is he's probably gonna start vs Sociedad and if that had been Bailly he would have been dropped for Thursday.
So just like De Gea, Maguire, Rashford then.
They should be dropped too but our manager doesn't have the balls to drop them.
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It can be a foul and weak defending. In that situation he needs to step towards the ball, step towards the contact, take the challenge on his terms rather than allow the forward to control it. Var should save him, but the idea of him being weak and passive is out there, it must influence officials even if they do not realize it.
Just to let you know that Bailly was injured in the last 2 weeks.
These players are not bots. They have muscles and injuries and some cant be relied up if they cant stay injury free.
I meant if he was fit.
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I agree Konate matches the description most but he’s had his injuries so again not perfect but are we happy to take that risk?
I have sympathy with Maguire and Rashford - who are they going to be dropped for? No point dropping them if there's no better replacement to come in.
However I've lost all patience with DDG, he hasn't been good enough for 3 years now so this isn't a blip. Play Henderson and see whether he can grow into the team before summer, so we know whether we need to buy a GK over the summer.
However that's not going to happen, DDG will continue to play 90% of the time, and we'll go into next season with a declining DDG and Henderson will still be an unknown quantity. Brilliant.
No one has said that it’s not a foul. What many people have said is that if he’d gone to attack the ball rather than trying to hold his man back until it dropped on his head he would have got to it first. Because he didn’t the other guy had the seconds to get there first via a foul
I just about made the top 10!
"Small group of posters who focus on the wrong things" guys.
We're the one with an agenda.
I'm out.
Sammysky rings to mind.
It was definitely a foul on Sunday but he’s still far too weak. Not good enough for us.
The issue is the foul didn't cause the goal. The foul gives him an excuse, but why did he get himself into that position in the first place?
He is infront of the striker, he should be throwing himself at the ball and clearing it, instead the striker is allowed to climb all over him and throws himself at it to score - that's desire right there. He didn't even have to actually win the ball, just stop Diagne getting to the ball, but instead he does nothing but stand there watching it come towards him.
Yes in the end he gets a hand in the face which should have been given as a foul, but IMO it didn't effect the overall outcome too much. The simple fact is Lindelof didn't deal with it as he should have. This is exactly why I and many others don't like Lindelof's defending.
You can sit there and make as many excuses as you like, but in England you have to deal with that sort of stuff more - and he isn't up to it.
He didn't even moan that much either about it being a foul, I don't think he truly felt like it was himself. The picture looks bad but it happens for a very tiny amount of time, he's not even ducking down to head the ball
The issue is the foul didn't cause the goal. The foul gives him an excuse, but why did he get himself into that position in the first place?
He is infront of the striker, he should be throwing himself at the ball and clearing it, instead the striker is allowed to climb all over him and throws himself at it to score - that's desire right there. He didn't even have to actually win the ball, just stop Diagne getting to the ball, but instead he does nothing but stand there watching it come towards him.
Yes in the end he gets a hand in the face which should have been given as a foul, but IMO it didn't effect the overall outcome too much. The simple fact is Lindelof didn't deal with it as he should have. This is exactly why I and many others don't like Lindelof's defending.
You can sit there and make as many excuses as you like, but in England you have to deal with that sort of stuff more - and he isn't up to it.
He didn't even moan that much either about it being a foul, I don't think he truly felt like it was himself. The picture looks bad but it happens for a very tiny amount of time, he's not even ducking down to head the ball
Exactly, the foul is incidental to what happened... without the hand in the face Diangana still heads the ball and Lindelof still doesn't.
I think some people think it should be a foul for the contact before that, but you're never getting that in a million years.
The biggest thing with Lindelof for me is that he doesn't strike an ounce of fear into anyone he defends. Forwards always feel like they have a chance coming up against him, you can see it in their body language, their tails are up.
Defenders need to be physically and mentally imposing. This is what great defenders like VVD, Vidic, Ramos were very good at, some strikers look defeated coming up against them before a ball is even kicked. You don't even have to be a great defender to have these qualities, defenders like Mings, Ogbonna and Coady have this, strikers may get the better of them but they know they'll be in for a very tough game. Lindelof on the other hand lets his man have a relatively stress free game.
Not all defenders have to be nasty bastards but you cannot be passive and lack aggression, that is a horrible combination.
Defenders need to be physically and mentally imposing. This is what great defenders like VVD, Vidic, Ramos were very good at, some strikers look defeated coming up against them before a ball is even kicked. You don't even have to be a great defender to have these qualities, defenders like Mings, Ogbonna and Coady have this, strikers may get the better of them but they know they'll be in for a very tough game. Lindelof on the other hand lets his man have a relatively stress free game.
Not all defenders have to be nasty bastards but you cannot be passive and lack aggression, that is a horrible combination.
Since that Huddersfield game when Mooy threw Lindelof around like a rag doll for 70 minutes it was obvious he wasn't a good fit for us. Remember watching the game at my local pub thinking I've seldom seen a defender get that dominated. Lindelof made Mooy look like Messi.
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A few of them are making specific points, such as below:
Yes, I understand. The issue happens before and hence regardless of the foul/resulting goal.
A lot of what he does annoys me, too. Not a match goes by where I wish he and Smalling were swapped. But for me in this case it also does look like he was going to deal with the cross until getting a faceful of glove and then not getting it called correctly.
He would be brilliant in a back 3.
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