He also could actually read the game well, unlike Lindelof who somehow always gets credit for being good at reading the game when it's blatantly untrue.
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I think Gary nails that. Lindelofs problem is Maguire and Maguires problem is Lindelof. I whole heartedly agree because honestly I don’t think Lindelof is that bad of a defender they just don’t work together and we aren’t going to bin an 80 mil invesment.
The problem I see is that there aren’t any truly great CB’s outside of VVD. There just seems to be a massive drop off on CB’s at the moment. Laporte on his day probably the next best thing. So that then bags the question are there truly vastly superior defenders out there to buy than Lindelof or just players that maybe suit Maguire better.
Personally I’d like Konaté but I don’t see Harry as a great leader or organiser of a defence so you need someone who would command his respect and instruct Harry on what to do and I doubt many young talents can do that.
The problem I see is that there aren’t any truly great CB’s outside of VVD. There just seems to be a massive drop off on CB’s at the moment. Laporte on his day probably the next best thing. So that then bags the question are there truly vastly superior defenders out there to buy than Lindelof or just players that maybe suit Maguire better.
Personally I’d like Konaté but I don’t see Harry as a great leader or organiser of a defence so you need someone who would command his respect and instruct Harry on what to do and I doubt many young talents can do that.
Lindelof has generally been pretty poor whoever we’ve partnered him with though. He did ok for a spell with Jones when Ole took over but even then Jones looked the better of the two. If anything, he’s had his best form for us partnering Maguire - probably because Maguire can cover for some of his deficiencies (poor heading, questionable positioning, lack of pro activity etc).
In contrast, Maguire looked much happier when he was partnering Bailly. They looked to have a much better understanding and we were able to get much more on the front foot. Problem, of course, is Bailly cannot stay fit!
In contrast, Maguire looked much happier when he was partnering Bailly. They looked to have a much better understanding and we were able to get much more on the front foot. Problem, of course, is Bailly cannot stay fit!
I don't believe this is true. Perhaps you just dont rate CBs based on what they are actually good at? Lindelof not being that bad, which is subjective, is that what United should be aiming for? A CB who isnt that bad? I dont think thats what we thought we were buying.
There are lots of CBs in defences with better records than ours. There are lots of better CBs than Lindelof in several, or most aspects statistically. Why aren't they therefore better than he is? Or at least should be given the chance to prove they are better by playing for a top team like he is? The only one I can think of is that he plays for United
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Genuine question here so would appreciate serious replies. What exactly do people not like about Lindelof and what exactly do they want in their CB?
Id really appreciate it in bullet points if possible. Doing a bit of research to see if any player exists that fits the demand.
Id really appreciate it in bullet points if possible. Doing a bit of research to see if any player exists that fits the demand.
The worry for me is that we would be looking for a CB who can partner Harry, rather than get a top CB. A top CB will just expose Maguire's deficiencies more and will probably give him lot of nice words for being slow and making brain feck decisions every now and then. He would no longer be able to hide behind the incompatibility excuse.
They are on a wind up for sure.
I think main complaints are
- Aerially weak
- Physically weak
- Very reactive
- Not authoritative.
I think the first 2 are key in PL and I agree. There are many other complaints on this forum which seem like a load of BS to me. Maguire is also not authoritative and ridiculously slow. But for some strange reason, people seem to be ok with that.
This is definitely some weird attribute that Lindelof apparently has but I'm sure it's only said because it's not easy to disprove. I never watch Lindelof and think 'he read that well'.
I basically believe Bailly is a level above Lindelof, but injuries are ruining his career. Apart from positioning, I don't see an area where the former isn't better or at least on par with the latter.
In my opinion, in an ideal scenario, Lindelof and Maguire should be competing for a spot next the Bailly, as it is the most suitable pair of CBs that we can pick. Obviously being the captain makes Maguire the 1st choice, so yeah. (the £80 million transfer fee might also play into it, just a bit)
Terrible at aerial duels
Poor at stopping, too slow to cover
Constantly struggles with one one one duels as he is too weak and gets easily barged
Average concentration
Poor composure when pressed
I don't lie how he clears the ball either, i think that's an important defensive feature people overlook
I haven't also seen him make good tackles
The key for me, as we are a more dominant team, where teams will approach us in a more direct manner, handling duels, both aerially and on the ground are key. I feel his weakness and uncertainty in the air is what has made us weak at handling corners and set pieces. In addition, to play with Maguire, pace may be important.
I think its more that he has a very regressive prediction rather than reading the game well. He's always willing to drop a yard and run with an attacker making a run behind the defence. But that run doesnt always happen. When it does he is often the one who tries to deal with it because he's looking for it to happen. So he takes up a defensive position that allows him to track a runner and he usually deals with it decently albeit not with pace but acting early.
In pretty much every other area I can't say he predicts well. Definitely not when the ball is in the air.
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Ok so what exactly makes Bailly the right one? What attributes does he have that you like?
I’m just trying to get a good picture of what the CAF wants instead of Lindelof
More aggressive - wins the ball more often, looks like they enjoy this part of defending and are quick to move towards danger rather than backing away from it
More speed
A bit better in the air would be an extra, Maguire should deal with most of it but with De Gea not coming off his line some extra heading would be an improvement
Eric Bailly fits the description when fit without the heading part, so do a lot of CBs in the premier league let alone around the world. Its not hard
Swap DDG for Henderson and we eliminate the need for another big CB to dominate in the air in my opinion.
- Poor in the air. Even when winning the ball invites pressure from weak headers. Rarely clears set pieces, compared to Maguire.
- Regularly loses physical challenges even when in the better position. Leads to goalscoring opportunities.
- No presence (not an organiser or talker, barely a hint of an appeal when fouled vs WBA).
- Is good at standing up attackers running at him, but stands off too much at times and allows too much time.
- Not quick enough to play a high line
- Defensive record markedly weaker than before he joined the club.
Are you genuinely saying you haven't noticed any of these weaknesses by now?
I think thats a maybe. I'm sure he's better on crosses but I dont think we've seen enough from him to be sure he should be a fixture in the team. Also, it doesnt seem to be happening with Ole preferring DDG.
In the air he's definitely what we need. I don't think it's so much Ole prefers DDG, I feel Ole has said at the start of the season Henderson is there to learn and improve and be our GK next year and is sticking with that. Time will tell.
I don't mind Lindelof to be honest. I think he's better than Maguire, that's for sure. The only reason that there's a narrative around getting another CB to accompany Maguire is purely down to the price tag because he's certainly not clearly better than Lindelof.
The thing is though, I also don't think Lindelof is good enough to be one of our starting CB's for most games. And that's the issue: we have two starting CB's who are really just good squad players but have been elevated above their skill level due to necessity.
The thing is though, I also don't think Lindelof is good enough to be one of our starting CB's for most games. And that's the issue: we have two starting CB's who are really just good squad players but have been elevated above their skill level due to necessity.
That is bs. Henderson stays on his line nearly as much as De Gea. Dave is much better gk than Henderson. Our fans are so desperate for next big thing from our academy that ocerrate every young player.
Henderson, Gomes, Tuanzebe, Chong (i was in his train too), Mengi, Laird...they all were/are new big thing (until they actually start to play in first team).
Decent turn of pace
Proactive on the front foot defender
Good in the air
Can play on left side of defence
Brave
I just told you what my opinion is and how I value the two players. Wasn't my comment pretty self-explanatory?
I already gave you my bullet points about lindelof for why I feel he doesnt work in the PL
- passive defender, backing off all the time
- tries to grapple but is physically weak
- average at best in the air
- passing triangles, continually gets the teammate in trouble. Just watch
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Not really. I’m just trying to get a clear consensus explain like I’m 5.
Bailly > Lindelof in every department, apart from positioning. Bailly is also a better fit for our £80 million captain CB, because he can cover his weaknesses more effectively.
It would be interesting to hear all those who complain about Lindelof's aerial ability, who they would like to replace him with. Of the most common suggestions, I wouldn't say anyone is an upgrade in the air. Here are aerial wins per game this season:
Kounde 2.9
Lindelof 2.6
Konaté 2.6
Upamecano 2.4
Varane 2.3
Ramos 2.0
Pau Torres 2.0
If we make a list over won aerials in the PL, Lindelof shares position 22 out 49 CBs, so slightly above average by PL standards. (CBs who played more than 10 games).
Lindelof has 5 big matches in the PL this season (Chelsea, Liverpool, City, 2x Arsenal). We have 4 clean sheets in those 5 matches and totally conceded 1 goal.
Bailly has played 2 big matches (Tottenham, Leicester) and we conceded 8 goals.
It is obvioulsy not only becasue of Lindelof, but our defence has looked well organised in the big matches he played.
Kounde 2.9
Lindelof 2.6
Konaté 2.6
Upamecano 2.4
Varane 2.3
Ramos 2.0
Pau Torres 2.0
If we make a list over won aerials in the PL, Lindelof shares position 22 out 49 CBs, so slightly above average by PL standards. (CBs who played more than 10 games).
One difference is that we get better result in big matches with Lindelof as CB.
Lindelof has 5 big matches in the PL this season (Chelsea, Liverpool, City, 2x Arsenal). We have 4 clean sheets in those 5 matches and totally conceded 1 goal.
Bailly has played 2 big matches (Tottenham, Leicester) and we conceded 8 goals.
It is obvioulsy not only becasue of Lindelof, but our defence has looked well organised in the big matches he played.
I think the main issue is the team generally does not defend well as a unit, WBA goal was an easy goal conceded if you look at build up of the goal, compare it to our equalizer, WBA packed the box and Shaw's cross wasn't accurate, Fernandes' volley was a difficult one to execute and he executed it skillfully, not many players can pull off such a shot.
On Lindelof though, although i agree its a foul, he didn't react to the cross and wasn't aware of his man who jumped on him to win the ball and went on to score.
On Lindelof though, although i agree its a foul, he didn't react to the cross and wasn't aware of his man who jumped on him to win the ball and went on to score.
I couldn't care less if Henderson is our next no.1 but he is much more effective in collecting balls and coming off his line. It's not even close. He was one the best keepers in the league for SU.
you must be blind if you havent seen that, last season. My favourite is the sevilla game, where he singlehandedly lost us the game, but im off this thread. I got no time with peole with lack of knowledge, I won´t list games which he was bad, really no time for that.
when was the last time he was burnt for pace? Really never we conceded because Maguire was slow, it´s another myth run by Lindi´s fans. Btw whos got about the same speed plus being subpar in everything else. I am not sure why speed comes into account ever when comapring the both players
Then why talk about it at all? Unless you have something to back up what you're saying, don't bother saying it.
He doesn't usually get burnt for pace because Lindelofs job is to cover in behind. He very frequently gets rinsed for his lack of acceleration though.when was the last time he was burnt for pace? Really never we conceded because Maguire was slow, it´s another myth run by Lindi´s fans. Btw whos got about the same speed plus being subpar in everything else. I am not sure why speed comes into account ever when comapring the both players
A few examples of him getting brushed aside/losing challenges to small players
0:35
1:25
0:12
Last season Kounde won more, which suggests teams havent crossed as much against Sevilla this season. Kounde was 3.2 last season as Sevilla and 3.2 for Bordeaux. This is the first domestic/league season where he has had less than 3 per 90 mins out of the 3 he's played.
I can’t see the clips, so better make a list of list of all PL goals we have conceded becasue Lindelof got outmuscled.
Not enough to be called a foul to me. Lindelof was being too weak and also not aggressive enough to go towards the ball which something not new as it happened so many times with him. Lindelof is pretty much Maguire without his physical strength and aerial duel.
However, I hate how we especially Maguire often being called a foul few times this season for doing the same thing, the Burnley disallowed goal and the Sheffield United game. The referee and VAR need to be consistent here. If contact like that is not a foul in their standard (which also mine) then they should apply the same standard on Maguire vs Burnley and Maguire vs Sheffield.
However, I hate how we especially Maguire often being called a foul few times this season for doing the same thing, the Burnley disallowed goal and the Sheffield United game. The referee and VAR need to be consistent here. If contact like that is not a foul in their standard (which also mine) then they should apply the same standard on Maguire vs Burnley and Maguire vs Sheffield.
I’m not sure about that. He has more attempts this season but loses more. Has won 2.9 and lost 2.4 per game, which is about 55%. Anyway, looking at stats, none of the players mentioned would be an upgrade in the air.
Kounde would be, obviously since he's had multiple seasons where hes been strong in the air and Lindelof has had 0
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So based on that short survey people want a quick good in the air aggressive ball playing CB.
Ok name one.
Ok name one.
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