Victor Gyökeres

diarm said:
You replied to my post bud. Those were the points I was making and you jumped in to challenge. I didn't seek you out to start a row so you can relax a small bit.

You explicitly said we need a more established, more senior striker which is exactly what we said when recruiting all the names I mentioned above. None of those signings did us any good.

I believe that with better attacking systems and coaching, we'll see far better output from the attackers we already have. You disagree and that's absolutely fine - we can revisit in May and see who was right.
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I challenged a specific point and specifically said I agreed on the rest. Read the post before replying next time

Yes we need a more experienced striker not and over aged stop gap. We have alot of talent but no senior leaders in attack we can rely on. Like I said I said nothing about a stop gap so your examples mean nothing.
 
SilentWitness said:
A problem with your analysis is that you're trying to use market value as a stick to beat Gyokeres with but then the same website has Gyokeres as the 42nd highest player in the world in terms of market value. So if you're using market value as a way to analyse players in a squad then in terms of individual players, Gyokeres is the 42nd best player in the world.

Another reason market value can be bollocks - Lewandowski due to his age is 15m yet he's still a top 5 in the world striker.
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It's not supposed to be a bullet-proof methodology for assessing teams and players but it's useful for providing a general overview.

I believe it's fair to say that at least half of those teams that Gyokeres is banging in goals for fun against would get relegated from the Championship...which brings me back around to my original point...you have to be pretty damn well sure you're getting a superstar when you spend £65m/£70m on a 27 year old...and I don't see how we can be sure. Feels to me like another 'quick fix' based on a set of convenient circumstances - his purple patch, his goals vs City and us appointing his former manager.
 
Lentwood said:
It's not supposed to be a bullet-proof methodology for assessing teams and players but it's useful for providing a general overview.

I believe it's fair to say that at least half of those teams that Gyokeres is banging in goals for fun against would get relegated from the Championship...which brings me back around to my original point...you have to be pretty damn well sure you're getting a superstar when you spend £65m/£70m on a 27 year old...and I don't see how we can be sure. Feels to me like another 'quick fix' based on a set of convenient circumstances - his purple patch, his goals vs City and us appointing his former manager.
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I don't think it's useful at all because it depends on so many variables that are completely ignored.

Also no, I don't think it's fair to say that half of those teams would get relegated from the Championship.
 
I think there's a tendency to overrate the premier league a bit to be honest,
There's lots of factors that affect a players performance, coach, companions, ambience, tactics, etc

Just look at Alvarez at Atletico...
 
Lentwood said:
It's not supposed to be a bullet-proof methodology for assessing teams and players but it's useful for providing a general overview.

I believe it's fair to say that at least half of those teams that Gyokeres is banging in goals for fun against would get relegated from the Championship...which brings me back around to my original point...you have to be pretty damn well sure you're getting a superstar when you spend £65m/£70m on a 27 year old...and I don't see how we can be sure. Feels to me like another 'quick fix' based on a set of convenient circumstances - his purple patch, his goals vs City and us appointing his former manager.
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He literally performed very well in the Championship for two years before getting even better.
 
Deco10Legend said:
I think there's a tendency to overrate the premier league a bit to be honest,
There's lots of factors that affect a players performance, coach, companions, ambience, tactics, etc

Just look at Alvarez at Atletico...
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City absolutely mugged them.
 
It’s so strange to see so much pushback for an accurately priced striker who’s playing at an extremely high level with elite production. Especially when his overall game is quality as well, he’s not just some poacher that’s hit a nice vein of finishing form in a weaker league.
 
This guy has more goals than games in each of the league, the CL, and for the national team this season. Maybe he is just good.
 
Newstyle said:
Arsenal forum: buy buy buy
Chelsea forum: buy buy buy
Newcastle forum: buy if we sell Isak
Liverpool forum: Top man

Redcafe: He is 27 and only scored over 60 goals in 50 games. Purple patch over 2 seasons.
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:lol:
 
Valencia Shin Crosses said:
It’s so strange to see so much pushback for an accurately priced striker who’s playing at an extremely high level with elite production. Especially when his overall game is quality as well, he’s not just some poacher that’s hit a nice vein of finishing form in a weaker league.
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Because those same people are still banking on Hojlund becoming twice the player based on nothing but hope.
 
klayton88 said:
Because those same people are still banking on Hojlund becoming twice the player based on nothing but hope.
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Yep we are still waiting for Hojlund to turn into the player that many said he was. Many of whom are currently frothing at the mouth for this lad. Many of whom made out Zirkzee was a top signing when we were linked with him.
 
We should buy him if the funds are available in Jan, which I doubt is, and also Hojlund and Zirkzee cost the club a combined £100m so we'll have to see how they get on with Amorim, hopefully we see something positive or sell them in the summer, INEOS should be ruthless and get rid of expensive flops sooner than we usually do.
 
Newstyle said:
Redcafe: He is 27 and only scored over 60 goals in 50 games. Purple patch over 2 seasons.
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And he scored penalties. And the non penalty goals are against small teams in Portugese league (he plays in Portugal). Therefore he's not even Championship level.
 
Lentwood said:
Done a quick bit of basic analysis Gyokeres' goals and the Portuguese league...

Portuguese League Goals
Below are the goals Gyokeres has scored in the Portuguese league. It shows the number of times Gyokeres has faced them, the number of goals he has scored, and the total market value of that team.

ClubMatchesGoalsSquad Value
SC Farense3618,980,000 €
CF Estrela Amadora3416,000,000 €
FC Porto34351,750,000 €
FC Vizela2410,730,000 €
Casa Pia AC3320,230,000 €
FC Arouca3335,400,000 €
Boavista FC2315,600,000 €
Portimonense SC2211,100,000 €
GD Chaves227,650,000 €
Rio Ave FC2231,700,000 €
Gil Vicente FC2223,230,000 €
Vitória Guimarães SC2247,430,000 €
Avs Futebol1218,400,000 €
CD Nacional1215,680,000 €
SC Braga31127,450,000 €
FC Famalicão3150,400,000 €
Moreirense FC2125,950,000 €
SL Benfica21335,500,000 €
Estoril Praia3023,050,000 €

- We can see from the Data that 27 of Gyokeres' goals have come vs 7 teams.
- Porto are the obvious standout, in terms of squad market value, remove them and he's scored 23 goals against six teams with a total market value of 117,000,000 EUR
- There are only two other teams in the Portuguese league (minus Sporting) with a squad market value of over 100,000,000 EUR, Benfica and Braga. Gyokeres has 2 goals in 5 appearances vs these teams.

Comparison Data for Squad Market Value

Below is some Data for squad market values for teams around Europe that I just picked completely off the top of my head at random for comparison purposes.

ClubSquad ValueLeague
Aston Villa615,450,000 €Premier League
Bournemouth354,850,000 €Premier League
Marseille305,300,000 €Ligue 1
Bologna276,800,000 €Serie A
Lille LOSC263,700,000 €Ligue 1
Rennes203,250,000 €Ligue 1
Ipswich Town195,400,000 €Premiership
Burnley187,500,000 €Championship
Leeds173,580,000 €Championship
Torino172,020,000 €Serie A
Freiburg169,050,000 €Bundesliga
Union Berlin122,180,000 €Bundesliga
Mainz93,450,000 €Bundesliga
AC Monza92,680,000 €Serie A
Hull City76,333,000 €Championship
Birmingham City41,600,000 €League One
Troyes19,050,000 €Ligue 2
Stockport County11,380,000 €League One
Wrexham11,230,000 €League One

- You can see from this comparison that the Portuguese league is weak, if we use 'squad market value' as an indicator of squad strength (not perfect I know, but an inidication).
- We see that a fair Premier League opponent like Bournemouth are on par with the best opponent he'll have faced in Portugal
- We see that the 6 clubs he has scored 23 goals against have a lower combined market value than Union Berlin
- We see that 3 clubs (accounting for 8 of his goals) have a lower market value than Wrexham and Stockport County, League One teams who were in the Conference two seasons ago.
- Mid-table teams in 'farmers leagues' like Ligue Un and the Bundesliga have values that would put them 2nd only to Porto (and Sporting) in Portugal
- Troyes, in the French 2nd Division, outrank 8 Portuguese teams

Now, take from this what you will....but my point is...this lad has scored a hatful of goals and looks useful....but let's be realistic about his age, his market value...and who he has scored those goals against...BEFORE we decide he's the answer to all our woes

Be in no doubt, the Portuguese league is very, very weak...much weaker than Ligue Una and the Bundesliga and arguably much weaker than the Championship, on balance.
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This is one of those statistics that seem to make sense until you look at how well Sporting have been doing in Champions League. Gyokeres included. They're 2nd in CL table.
 
tenpoless said:
This is one of those statistics that seem to make sense until you look at how well Sporting have been doing in Champions League. Gyokeres included. They're 2nd in CL table.
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Sample size matters. Every cl season has some teams overperforming/underperforming halfway trough the group stages. We see the opposite from their portuguese rivals in Europe. Losing vs 10 man Bodø.
 
Newstyle said:
Arsenal forum: buy buy buy
Chelsea forum: buy buy buy
Newcastle forum: buy if we sell Isak
Liverpool forum: Top man

Redcafe: He is 27 and only scored over 60 goals in 50 games. Purple patch over 2 seasons.
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It's insecurity because a lot of posters think he'll choose another club over us so they're adopting the 'never wanted him anyway' stance early.
 
tenpoless said:
And he scored penalties. And the non penalty goals are against small teams in Portugese league (he plays in Portugal). Therefore he's not even Championship level.
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That one makes me laugh the most considering he was arguably the best player In the championship in his final season there.
 
Newstyle said:
Arsenal forum: buy buy buy
Chelsea forum: buy buy buy
Newcastle forum: buy if we sell Isak
Liverpool forum: Top man

Redcafe: He is 27 and only scored over 60 goals in 50 games. Purple patch over 2 seasons.
Click to expand...
Haha so true
 
Lentwood said:
Done a quick bit of basic analysis Gyokeres' goals and the Portuguese league...

Portuguese League Goals
Below are the goals Gyokeres has scored in the Portuguese league. It shows the number of times Gyokeres has faced them, the number of goals he has scored, and the total market value of that team.

ClubMatchesGoalsSquad Value
SC Farense3618,980,000 €
CF Estrela Amadora3416,000,000 €
FC Porto34351,750,000 €
FC Vizela2410,730,000 €
Casa Pia AC3320,230,000 €
FC Arouca3335,400,000 €
Boavista FC2315,600,000 €
Portimonense SC2211,100,000 €
GD Chaves227,650,000 €
Rio Ave FC2231,700,000 €
Gil Vicente FC2223,230,000 €
Vitória Guimarães SC2247,430,000 €
Avs Futebol1218,400,000 €
CD Nacional1215,680,000 €
SC Braga31127,450,000 €
FC Famalicão3150,400,000 €
Moreirense FC2125,950,000 €
SL Benfica21335,500,000 €
Estoril Praia3023,050,000 €

- We can see from the Data that 27 of Gyokeres' goals have come vs 7 teams.
- Porto are the obvious standout, in terms of squad market value, remove them and he's scored 23 goals against six teams with a total market value of 117,000,000 EUR
- There are only two other teams in the Portuguese league (minus Sporting) with a squad market value of over 100,000,000 EUR, Benfica and Braga. Gyokeres has 2 goals in 5 appearances vs these teams.

Comparison Data for Squad Market Value

Below is some Data for squad market values for teams around Europe that I just picked completely off the top of my head at random for comparison purposes.

ClubSquad ValueLeague
Aston Villa615,450,000 €Premier League
Bournemouth354,850,000 €Premier League
Marseille305,300,000 €Ligue 1
Bologna276,800,000 €Serie A
Lille LOSC263,700,000 €Ligue 1
Rennes203,250,000 €Ligue 1
Ipswich Town195,400,000 €Premiership
Burnley187,500,000 €Championship
Leeds173,580,000 €Championship
Torino172,020,000 €Serie A
Freiburg169,050,000 €Bundesliga
Union Berlin122,180,000 €Bundesliga
Mainz93,450,000 €Bundesliga
AC Monza92,680,000 €Serie A
Hull City76,333,000 €Championship
Birmingham City41,600,000 €League One
Troyes19,050,000 €Ligue 2
Stockport County11,380,000 €League One
Wrexham11,230,000 €League One

- You can see from this comparison that the Portuguese league is weak, if we use 'squad market value' as an indicator of squad strength (not perfect I know, but an inidication).
- We see that a fair Premier League opponent like Bournemouth are on par with the best opponent he'll have faced in Portugal
- We see that the 6 clubs he has scored 23 goals against have a lower combined market value than Union Berlin
- We see that 3 clubs (accounting for 8 of his goals) have a lower market value than Wrexham and Stockport County, League One teams who were in the Conference two seasons ago.
- Mid-table teams in 'farmers leagues' like Ligue Un and the Bundesliga have values that would put them 2nd only to Porto (and Sporting) in Portugal
- Troyes, in the French 2nd Division, outrank 8 Portuguese teams

Now, take from this what you will....but my point is...this lad has scored a hatful of goals and looks useful....but let's be realistic about his age, his market value...and who he has scored those goals against...BEFORE we decide he's the answer to all our woes

Be in no doubt, the Portuguese league is very, very weak...much weaker than Ligue Una and the Bundesliga and arguably much weaker than the Championship, on balance.
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Squad market value is not really a good indicator. Especially in comparison to the PL which is awash with money and has teams with overpriced players and overpaid rubbish. That being said obviously we know the PL is a stronger league.

Thats precisely because the PL buys players like Gyokeres from the “weaker leagues” because it has more financial power. Don’t you ever stop and wonder why most of the best players in the PL come from so called “weaker leagues”. Maybe its because they are better at idendiying and developing talent?

I wonder what the same analysis of Haaland scoring both at Salzburg and Dortmund would have looked like in the league. Its also not like Gyokeres just scored a hattick against Man City or anything either.
 
Berbaclass said:
He literally performed very well in the Championship for two years before getting even better.
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He scored 41 in 110 in the Championship.

Nobody would be suggesting we pay £65m+ for a player with those stats alone at 27, I think we can all agree on that.

So, what the argument basically boils down to, is whether you believe averaging a goal a game in Portugal for 18-months justifies paying a big fee for a footballer who isn't the right profile in terms of age / elite level experience.

Now, as usual, whenever you make a reasoned or nuanced argument, people will pick up one part of it and misinterpret it, either deliberately or through not knowing any better...so nobody, absolutely nobody is saying this bloke is rubbish or wouldn't score goals in the Premier League.

The point I am making is it's a risk. It's a risk because he's currently on a hot spell that seemingly came from relatively nowhere and may not be replicated. It's a risk because he's coming from a league arguably on par on weaker than the Dutch league, and we've seen how that usually turns out. It's a risk because he will be 27, and therefore likely can't be developed / won't get much better. It's also a risk because his age means we won't get a decent fee back if he does flop.

Football fans chase players around like a dog chasing a tennis ball. Gyokeres is flavour of the month now, next month it will be someone else, and the next, and the next...and so on.

Director's of Football don't think like football fans, thankfully (or shouldn't). They think like corporate executives, weighing up all manner of factors before making a decision which aligns with pre-determined strategies and objectives.

Hence why, to go back to, and finish (because this is boring now) my argument, I personally do not think there is much chance at all that we sign Gyokeres under INEOS and I for one am not sad about that....and it's NOT because he's rubbish or wouldn't score a few goals...its because there are too many unknowns and too much risk, given our current plight (RE PSR and general state of the squad).

EDIT : simply for consistency, I made the exact same argument last season about Nkunku and received basically the same replies. He's gone to Chelsea, he's done "OK", he's 27, he's got 4 goals in 21 games and is quite often injured...again, not sad we didn't spend big on him. Where are the people who called me an idiot at the time for not wanting him...probably in this thread calling me an idiot for not really wanting Gyokeres.
 
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2 man midfield said:
I’d see how he does with Hojlund before spending 80m we don’t have on this guy.

Bad Dost and Mario Jardel had insane scoring records at sporting Lisbon
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Bas Dost was a good finisher, his experience, hight, great header and with good players behind him like Bruno Fernandes, Acuna, Nani and Raphinha (Barcelona) it was expected to score a lot of goals. Before in the Eredivisie he had great numbers too, even in the Bundesliga they were ok.
Mario Jardel was for me the greatest finisher that i've ever seen, he could touch two times the ball in 90 minutes and it would be 2 goals, it was like magic, the ball would find a way to get to him and afterwards in the net, his numbers in Porto and at Sporting are insane.
Gyokeres his completely diferent he makes the chances and scores, but has a United fan i too think, its better to see what the current players can do and who steps up to the plate.
 
Lentwood said:
I believe it's fair to say that at least half of those teams that Gyokeres is banging in goals for fun against would get relegated from the Championship...
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It be seems to me as he scores fairly frequently against better opponents as well. 6 goals in 8 matches against the top teams of Portugal, he scored against City, Lille, Portugal national team. Plus the assists.

The big question is often if the player can cope with the high tempo and physicality of the PL. I think he has the attributes and game style to do it.
Lentwood said:
He scored 41 in 110 in the Championship.

Nobody would be suggesting we pay £65m+ for a player with those stats alone at 27, I think we can all agree on that.

So, what the argument basically boils down to, is whether you believe averaging a goal a game in Portugal for 18-months justifies paying a big fee for a footballer who isn't the right profile in terms of age / elite level experience.

Now, as usual, whenever you make a reasoned or nuanced argument, people will pick up one part of it and misinterpret it, either deliberately or through not knowing any better...so nobody, absolutely nobody is saying this bloke is rubbish or wouldn't score goals in the Premier League.

The point I am making is it's a risk. It's a risk because he's currently on a hot spell that seemingly came from relatively nowhere and may not be replicated. It's a risk because he's coming from a league arguably on par on weaker than the Dutch league, and we've seen how that usually turns out. It's a risk because he will be 27, and therefore likely can't be developed / won't get much better. It's also a risk because his age means we won't get a decent fee back if he does flop.

Football fans chase players around like a dog chasing a tennis ball. Gyokeres is flavour of the month now, next month it will be someone else, and the next, and the next...and so on.

Director's of Football don't think like football fans, thankfully (or shouldn't). They think like corporate executives, weighing up all manner of factors before making a decision which aligns with pre-determined strategies and objectives.

Hence why, to go back to, and finish (because this is boring now) my argument, I personally do not think there is much chance at all that we sign Gyokeres under INEOS and I for one am not sad about that....and it's NOT because he's rubbish or wouldn't score a few goals...its because there are too many unknowns and too much risk, given our current plight (RE PSR and general state of the squad).

EDIT : simply for consistency, I made the exact same argument last season about Nkunku and received basically the same replies. He's gone to Chelsea, he's done "OK", he's 27, he's got 4 goals in 21 games and is quite often injured...again, not sad we didn't spend big on him. Where are the people who called me an idiot at the time for not wanting him...probably in this thread calling me an idiot for not really wanting Gyokeres.
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I see his age more as an asset than a hinder. He’s 26 so about to enter his prime 5 years most likely. We don’t need any more young development projects, we need exactly players who are entering their prime years. What he needs to do is to adapt to PL, but it looks like he has the tools for it.
 
Lentwood said:
He scored 41 in 110 in the Championship.

Nobody would be suggesting we pay £65m+ for a player with those stats alone at 27, I think we can all agree on that.

So, what the argument basically boils down to, is whether you believe averaging a goal a game in Portugal for 18-months justifies paying a big fee for a footballer who isn't the right profile in terms of age / elite level experience.

Now, as usual, whenever you make a reasoned or nuanced argument, people will pick up one part of it and misinterpret it, either deliberately or through not knowing any better...so nobody, absolutely nobody is saying this bloke is rubbish or wouldn't score goals in the Premier League.

The point I am making is it's a risk. It's a risk because he's currently on a hot spell that seemingly came from relatively nowhere and may not be replicated. It's a risk because he's coming from a league arguably on par on weaker than the Dutch league, and we've seen how that usually turns out. It's a risk because he will be 27, and therefore likely can't be developed / won't get much better. It's also a risk because his age means we won't get a decent fee back if he does flop.

Football fans chase players around like a dog chasing a tennis ball. Gyokeres is flavour of the month now, next month it will be someone else, and the next, and the next...and so on.

Director's of Football don't think like football fans, thankfully (or shouldn't). They think like corporate executives, weighing up all manner of factors before making a decision which aligns with pre-determined strategies and objectives.

Hence why, to go back to, and finish (because this is boring now) my argument, I personally do not think there is much chance at all that we sign Gyokeres under INEOS and I for one am not sad about that....and it's NOT because he's rubbish or wouldn't score a few goals...its because there are too many unknowns and too much risk, given our current plight (RE PSR and general state of the squad).

EDIT : simply for consistency, I made the exact same argument last season about Nkunku and received basically the same replies. He's gone to Chelsea, he's done "OK", he's 27, he's got 4 goals in 21 games and is quite often injured...again, not sad we didn't spend big on him. Where are the people who called me an idiot at the time for not wanting him...probably in this thread calling me an idiot for not really wanting Gyokeres.
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I said he performed well in the championship for two years, which he did.

He scored 17 in 45 with 5 assists in 21/22 and then 21 in 46 games with 10 assists in 22/23.

54 G+A in 91 games over the two seasons.

That is a very good return especially when you consider he played for Coventry who were not a high-scoring team. Coventry scored 60 and 58 goals in those two seasons meaning he was directly involved in 45% of the team's goals. He pretty much dragged them into the playoffs.

He performed very well at that level and have no doubt in my mind that he would make the step up to the PL (Both Wolves and Everton were very close to getting him) at that point, never mind now he has probably gone up another level with the way he's performing in Portugal/Europe and for Sweden.

Players develop at different ages and at different speeds. He had a pretty slow start and seemingly struggled to find his way but once he got a bit of experience under his belt from his loans to St. Pauli and Swansea, he has steadily got better since he landed at Coventry in 20/21. Maybe he just needed a bit of confidence/momentum that he didn't get in those early years at Brighton after making the move over from Sweden. Certainly got it now though and he's just going from strength to strength.

I don't consider it a purple patch, at what point does that end and he's just considered a good player? We heard the same leveled at Kane for years when he broke through. He reminds me a bit of Kane in his actual game the way he finishes on both feet but has a bit more pace. I think the fundamentals to his game are all there and have been well crafted in the Championship. He is strong, good on both feet, fast, works hard, can play link up, and is good in the air. He also knows where to position himself to score goals which is a valuable trait in itself being in the right place at the right time.

When I look at him as someone who has been watching him since the end of 21/22 I see someone who is just getting progressively better each year and not a 'flavor of the month' which he has been accused of.

Whoever gets him is getting a very good striker and there is no way in a million years he comes into the PL and flops because he's absolutely made for this league. I'm terrified of a team like Liverpool/Arsenal getting him he would be a superb signing for them. Would love us to get him and I'd move on Zirkzee to do it.
 
Berbaclass said:
I said he performed well in the championship for two years, which he did.

He scored 17 in 45 with 5 assists in 21/22 and then 21 in 46 games with 10 assists in 22/23.

54 G+A in 91 games over the two seasons.

That is a very good return especially when you consider he played for Coventry who were not a high-scoring team. Coventry scored 60 and 58 goals in those two seasons meaning he was directly involved in 45% of the team's goals. He pretty much dragged them into the playoffs.

He performed very well at that level and have no doubt in my mind that he would make the step up to the PL (Both Wolves and Everton were very close to getting him) at that point, never mind now he has probably gone up another level with the way he's performing in Portugal/Europe and for Sweden.

Players develop at different ages and at different speeds. He had a pretty slow start and seemingly struggled to find his way but once he got a bit of experience under his belt from his loans to St. Pauli and Swansea, he has steadily got better since he landed at Coventry in 20/21. Maybe he just needed a bit of confidence/momentum that he didn't get in those early years at Brighton after making the move over from Sweden. Certainly got it now though and he's just going from strength to strength.

I don't consider it a purple patch, at what point does that end and he's just considered a good player? We heard the same leveled at Kane for years when he broke through. He reminds me a bit of Kane in his actual game the way he finishes on both feet but has a bit more pace. I think the fundamentals to his game are all there and have been well crafted in the Championship. He is strong, good on both feet, fast, works hard, can play link up, and is good in the air. He also knows where to position himself to score goals which is a valuable trait in itself being in the right place at the right time.

When I look at him as someone who has been watching him since the end of 21/22 I see someone who is just getting progressively better each year and not a 'flavor of the month' which he has been accused of.

Whoever gets him is getting a very good striker and there is no way in a million years he comes into the PL and flops because he's absolutely made for this league. I'm terrified of a team like Liverpool/Arsenal getting him he would be a superb signing for them. Would love us to get him and I'd move on Zirkzee to do it.
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See though these are your opinions, and you might be a great judge of a player and you might have watched Gyokeres throughout his career and decided he's an elite striker and a bargain at £65m...BUT...

Opinions can be wrong...and sometimes, you might be right about his talent...and it might STILL not work out.

My argument is not based on my opinion of the player. I have seen the bloke play once, the second half vs City.

So take the opinions out of it...you're Manchester United's DOF this Summer...you know we're under pressure from PSR and have multiple positions to strengthen.

What do you do if you sign Gyokeres for £65/70m and let's say he does "fine" but falls short of "good" or "elite" and scores 13 in 38....(bear in mind Bruno will likely stay on pens)...what's your next move?

Also, the Kane comparison isn't a great one...he was a slower starter but was banging them in from about 21/22 and never stopped (and in the Premier League)
 
Lentwood said:
See though these are your opinions, and you might be a great judge of a player and you might have watched Gyokeres throughout his career and decided he's an elite striker and a bargain at £65m...BUT...

Opinions can be wrong...and sometimes, you might be right about his talent...and it might STILL not work out.

My argument is not based on my opinion of the player. I have seen the bloke play once, the second half vs City.

So take the opinions out of it...you're Manchester United's DOF this Summer...you know we're under pressure from PSR and have multiple positions to strengthen.

What do you do if you sign Gyokeres for £65/70m and let's say he does "fine" but falls short of "good" or "elite" and scores 13 in 38....(bear in mind Bruno will likely stay on pens)...what's your next move?

Also, the Kane comparison isn't a great one...he was a slower starter but was banging them in from about 21/22 and never stopped (and in the Premier League)
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I don't understand the point of your argument here. Should we never buy players in their prime and/or from weaker leagues because it could be a risk? What do you want to do instead?
 
Lentwood said:
See though these are your opinions, and you might be a great judge of a player and you might have watched Gyokeres throughout his career and decided he's an elite striker and a bargain at £65m...BUT...

Opinions can be wrong...and sometimes, you might be right about his talent...and it might STILL not work out.

My argument is not based on my opinion of the player. I have seen the bloke play once, the second half vs City.

So take the opinions out of it...you're Manchester United's DOF this Summer...you know we're under pressure from PSR and have multiple positions to strengthen.

What do you do if you sign Gyokeres for £65/70m and let's say he does "fine" but falls short of "good" or "elite" and scores 13 in 38....(bear in mind Bruno will likely stay on pens)...what's your next move?

Also, the Kane comparison isn't a great one...he was a slower starter but was banging them in from about 21/22 and never stopped (and in the Premier League)
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Obviously, it's my opinion mate, that is the point of the forum. I'm just a big fan of the player and have been following him since the back end of the 21/22 season as I mentioned.

He's reportedly available for 60/70 million euros (~£50 Million), and I would definitely consider it. However, I'm aware that multiple areas in the team need strengthening. We can't afford not to have someone that consistently puts the ball in the back of the net as much as we have to worry about PSR.

Personally, I think we see how Rasmus develops over the course of the season under Ruben and make a decision as to whether we need a more experienced striker to take the load off him.

You need a good mix of youth and experience and in the summer we are going to lose a lot of it presuming that Maguire, Eriksen, Evans, Casemiro, Lindelof etc all leave. I consider Gyokeres a ready-made 'finished article' type player to come in and fit right into the team and at 27 he is in or just approaching the absolute prime of his career. You need players like that in the team, you can't just fill it with 21-year-olds as they are just too inconsistent.

If you get him for £50 million and he comes in and scores 20 PL goals a season for 3 or so years while helping Hojlund develop into a more rounded player then I see it as a no brainer.

It's early days I know but I think I'd cut our losses on Zirkzee and get someone more suited to English football. I don't think he is at this moment in time but he may prove me wrong.

I didn't compare his career trajectory to Kane, I said he reminds me of Kane as a player the way he finishes very well on both feet and doesn't mind scoring 'scruffy' goals. A great goalscorer, not a scorer of great goals.
 
Lentwood said:
He scored 41 in 110 in the Championship.

Nobody would be suggesting we pay £65m+ for a player with those stats alone at 27, I think we can all agree on that.

So, what the argument basically boils down to, is whether you believe averaging a goal a game in Portugal for 18-months justifies paying a big fee for a footballer who isn't the right profile in terms of age / elite level experience.

Now, as usual, whenever you make a reasoned or nuanced argument, people will pick up one part of it and misinterpret it, either deliberately or through not knowing any better...so nobody, absolutely nobody is saying this bloke is rubbish or wouldn't score goals in the Premier League.

The point I am making is it's a risk. It's a risk because he's currently on a hot spell that seemingly came from relatively nowhere and may not be replicated. It's a risk because he's coming from a league arguably on par on weaker than the Dutch league, and we've seen how that usually turns out. It's a risk because he will be 27, and therefore likely can't be developed / won't get much better. It's also a risk because his age means we won't get a decent fee back if he does flop.

Football fans chase players around like a dog chasing a tennis ball. Gyokeres is flavour of the month now, next month it will be someone else, and the next, and the next...and so on.

Director's of Football don't think like football fans, thankfully (or shouldn't). They think like corporate executives, weighing up all manner of factors before making a decision which aligns with pre-determined strategies and objectives.

Hence why, to go back to, and finish (because this is boring now) my argument, I personally do not think there is much chance at all that we sign Gyokeres under INEOS and I for one am not sad about that....and it's NOT because he's rubbish or wouldn't score a few goals...its because there are too many unknowns and too much risk, given our current plight (RE PSR and general state of the squad).

EDIT : simply for consistency, I made the exact same argument last season about Nkunku and received basically the same replies. He's gone to Chelsea, he's done "OK", he's 27, he's got 4 goals in 21 games and is quite often injured...again, not sad we didn't spend big on him. Where are the people who called me an idiot at the time for not wanting him...probably in this thread calling me an idiot for not really wanting Gyokeres.
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What you're saying isn't without merit, and typically, goals from the smaller leagues are weighted to represent the weaker level of competition. So even if you wanted to be incredibly harsh, you can strip at least a quarter of his tallies off for a more realistic PL reflection, theoretically.

Problem with the player is he is scoring at an accelerated rate outside of Portugal, too. Then we turn to the "how does he do verses whatever he is up against" and there too he is looking quite transformative to this point in time.

You keep citing the Championship as if it is the here and now or that a player isn't capable of taking meteoric strides in short periods of time. I didn't watch the player in the Championship, but the eye test has him doing a lot of what you would want to see in a touted striker, so what should we take here? A player who once played in the Championship and was a so-so performer, or the player he looks to have gone on to become, who looks like he has honed his craft and is alerting the big clubs via his prowess in both scoring and leading the line? Again, if we cut off the extremities on both sides, we're left with at least a very competent striker who is ready to come in and do a rather important job.

Granted the sample size isn't the largest, but then, prolific centre-forwards are gold dust in this day and age, and that is what will cause a scramble, if he sees out the season as he has started it.

In relation to 'what would a DOF do?' I would honestly hope said DOF would recognise the absolute shambles and calamity of having no mature(d) striker at the club and fix it immediately, given it should never happen at a club of this stature. Rashford may turn things around and make this point redundant, in his new position, but that'd still be serendipity over a shrewdly built squad that had its primary striker in place at the start of a campaign. Even if not Gyoekeres, we need a veteran hand upfront and should categorically not be burdening a wet-behind-the ears kid with the role of lead striker (again, pending Rashford's performance level and the outcome of that). In times gone by, there would be a veritable smorgasbord of strikers to pick from, in this day and age, finished articles, or even strikers who look like they are about something, are very few and fair between - the Swede is doing all he can to look the part and be given the chance at a big club; the dearth when it comes to options obviously elevates him where in times gone by, he mightn't have been a target.

The element of risk is unavoidable. You can have far better CV's than his and still see the player flop, so I'm not sure why that would be a talking point when there's no guarantees on anyone who comes through the door, even if their name is easier on the eye in terms of expectation.
 
Grand Vizier said:
I don't understand the point of your argument here. Should we never buy players in their prime and/or from weaker leagues because it could be a risk? What do you want to do instead?
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I have outlined many times what we should do instead - sign younger strikers with high ceilings who can be developed more easily and moved on if they flop.
 
Lentwood said:
I have outlined many times what we should do instead - sign younger strikers with high ceilings who can be developed more easily and moved on if they flop.
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Okay, we did that with Højlund, so we already have a younger one, maybe we should sign an experienced one approaching his prime who clearly is a better striker at the moment, instead of another young one who will likely face the same scenario as Højlund?

We need a mix of youth and experience, not just a bunch of potential.
 
Fortitude said:
The element of risk is unavoidable. You can have far better CV's than his and still see the player flop, so I'm not sure why that would be a talking point when there's no guarantees on anyone who comes through the door, even if their name is easier on the eye in terms of exexpectation.
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That's not how we think about risk though is it...i.e. as a binary thing (something is either a risk or it is not).

When Haaland was at Molde, we turned down the chance to sign him, and again when he went to Salzburg (source OGS on the Overlap).

Now, for me, and I believe for INEOS, a player like Modle or Salzburg Haaland would be a slam-dunk signing.

For a young player, available for around £4m and £15m the two times we showed some interested, there's nothing to lose, really. You sign him, he flops, you move him on. You sign him, he does OK, you sell him for a decent profit or keep him as a squad player. You sign him, he reaches his ceiling...you have a generational talent on your hands for a few million pounds and are set for a decade.

So, when we think about defining risk, we would say this is low risk, high reward.

Now do the same analysis with Gyokeres. Let's say we can get him for £65m/£70m on £200,000 per week on a 4+1 deal. That's a big outlay. Around £100m. Now consider the same three outcomes...he flops...we might get £20m back (bear in mind he'd be 29 if we gave him 18-24months). He does OK...we might use him as a squad player...but he'd be a bloody expensive one at £100m.

Now say he reaches his ceiling...well what is his ceiling, first and foremost? Is he really on par with prime Lewandowski or Haaaland or Kane or RvN or Suarez or Ronaldo etc...or are we saying he's the level below that, or are we saying hes not that level but has the potential to be?

I don't know because I have seen 45mins of him in action...but it seems quite unlikely he is, or will be as good as those superstars of the position. So in my view we're taking a high risk, reasonable reward line.

Not related to that argument, but another hypothetical I always like to imagine with a CF is "what would Watkins do?"...the premise being Ollie Watkins is a very good, but not elite, Premier League level striker. If Ollie Watkins played in the Portuguese league for that Sporting team, how many would he get? And would that lead us to wanting to pay £70m for him to lead the line for Manchester United as we attempt to regain our former glories?

Again, not intended as a bullet-proof scientific analysis, more a thought-experiment.
 
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