VAR, Refs and Linesmen | General Discussion

Red card for lewa? Identical to awb from last season. Have they magically scrapped that rule?
 
Resch said:
Roma scored a hand goal against Salzburg today. VAR stayed silent again. What a waist of technology.
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It's effectively abolished now, isn't it? I can barely remember the last time I saw a non-offside call being overturned. There's the odd use of the insanely moronic 'the goalscorer touched the ball with the nail on his little finger' goal overturning but other than that, VAR is basically just an offside check now. Fine by me as I thought it made the game significantly worse, just think they should announce that it's been scrapped.
 
Resch said:
Roma scored a hand goal against Salzburg today. VAR stayed silent again. What a waist of technology.
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The Juve penalty/red card was horrible too. I can just about understand the penalty ruling but a red card was a joke.

I thought the Barca penalty wasn't a penalty either but this weird thing that it can only be a 'clear and obvious error' is really ruining the game for me. It's like they admit it's an error but not a big enough one to use the technology they have to overturn it so what's the point in it?
 
Pink Moon said:
weird thing that it can only be a 'clear and obvious error' is really ruining the game for me. It's like they admit it's an error but not a big enough one to use the technology they have to overturn it so what's the point in it?
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It's an awful law.
 
Leipzig is clearly not a pen. I thought the same last night from the blurry distance shot, I could see he had his arms tucked in. So odd for many to be lambasting the call. The clearer closer angle shows it's nothing at all, yet people were outraged and ready to sting the officials up.
 
I'm aware that most fans tend to feel that their team is hard done by as a matter of course, but I must say it really does go beyond that with United. The significant majority of the time, the ref is undeniably against us. It's decidedly rare that we get a game where we aren't massively hindered by a ref who seems to be doing everything he can to help our opponents.

It's just about impossible to get sent off against United, and for us to get any kind of decision, it has to be an utter stonewaller that even the most hateful ABUer would have to agree with. Anything less just gets ignored. And this is week in, week out. When we do get the occasional decision our way, once every quarter of the year or whatever, it seems as if referess just decide that's all we're allowed to get for the next several months.

Tonight, yet again, the ref was as lenient on Barca as he could possibly be, and as harsh on us as he could justify. There might not have been any completely scandalous decisions, but he just kept being kind to them and unkind to us in all those little ways that add up.
 
Dansk said:
I'm aware that most fans tend to feel that their team is hard done by as a matter of course, but I must say it really does go beyond that with United. The significant majority of the time, the ref is undeniably against us. It's decidedly rare that we get a game where we aren't massively hindered by a ref who seems to be doing everything he can to help our opponents.

It's just about impossible to get sent off against United, and for us to get any kind of decision, it has to be an utter stonewaller that even the most hateful ABUer would have to agree with. Anything less just gets ignored. And this is week in, week out. When we do get the occasional decision our way, once every quarter of the year or whatever, it seems as if referess just decide that's all we're allowed to get for the next several months.

Tonight, yet again, the ref was as lenient on Barca as he could possibly be, and as harsh on us as he could justify. There might not have been any completely scandalous decisions, but he just kept being kind to them and unkind to us in all those little ways that add up.
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There are coin flip decisions, but for some refs, it's always head....
 
Lewa going over the top of the ball and stuffing Casemiro ankle was something I thought would be brought up more
 
Not to rag too much on the ref, but it really did feel yesterday like he had an imaginary coin in his head and was just flipping it for basically any decision.
 
Pink Moon said:
I thought the Barca penalty wasn't a penalty either but this weird thing that it can only be a 'clear and obvious error' is really ruining the game for me. It's like they admit it's an error but not a big enough one to use the technology they have to overturn it so what's the point in it?
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The "clear an obvious error" really negates the point of having a video ref. There's too many examples now of terrible decisions not being overturned. It's such a cowardly directive to enforce. Refs make mistakes with the speed of the game and that's fine, they are human. What's not on is a panel of experienced refs watching multiple replays at different angles and speeds and not having the stones to have a word with the ref. If they aren't going to implement VAR properly just scrap it, keep goal-line technology and introduce the automated offsides they tried at the world Cup.
 
Great spot on White fouling Ward then gone full blind mode for the Saka penalty. Good thing we managed to win in the end
 
awop said:
Great spot on White fouling Ward then gone full blind mode for the Saka penalty. Good thing we managed to win in the end
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Yes, it was one of those ones you go...what on earth could they be looking at...and then you begrudgingly have to admit that it was well spotted.

And then they totally missed the CB falling over and taking out Saka. Also, I don't know why the lines were not drawn on the Martinelli offside. He looked very marginally off with his hand but still...Even with the right call in White, it's still a mess today.
 
Changeisgood said:
Yes, it was one of those ones you go...what on earth could they be looking at...and then you begrudgingly have to admit that it was well spotted.

And then they totally missed the CB falling over and taking out Saka. Also, I don't know why the lines were not drawn on the Martinelli offside. He looked very marginally off with his hand but still...Even with the right call in White, it's still a mess today.
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It was shown again and again and Saka tripped the CB so he fell on him. I think from what was shown that it was a correct call.
 
arthurka said:
It was shown again and again and Saka tripped the CB so he fell on him. I think from what was shown that it was a correct call.
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I have seen the main highlights on this one and the game itself. Both look pretty clear. I did check if there is another view out there, and there is one from far away I had not seen. It looks like there is an incidental collision before that you don't really see on the other replays. Hard to see what's going on there though and it still looks very clumsy. For whatever it is worth the pundits seem to agree it was a penalty.
 
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Changeisgood said:
I have seen the main highlights on this one and the game itself. Both look pretty clear. I did check if there is another view out there, and there is one from far away I had not seen. It looks like there is an incidental collision before that you don't really see on the other replays. Hard to see what's going on there though and it still looks very clumsy. For whatever it is worth the pundits seem to agree it was a penalty.
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I just don't see this as a clear and obvious error that said if given they wouldn't have taken it back.
 
So the refs are the most inept they've ever been or are sabotaging the use of var as much as they can
Great stuff
 
Ref gave a red card only for the VAR to intervene. It will set a precedent.

Also, he gave a yellow, after that a red. He rescinded the red in one yellow… two yellows makes a red!
 
ESR10 said:
Ref gave a red card only for the VAR to intervene. It will set a precedent.

Also, he gave a yellow, after that a red. He rescinded the red in one yellow… two yellows makes a red!
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Exactly. Even if the argument that Ziyech only "grazed" the face of the opposing player and thus should only be given a yellow card, the fact that he's been booked twice should result in a sending off...yet he's still on the pitch!
 
mav_9me said:
I don't understand. Why was that not a red?
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You think it should have been? The referee sure made a mess of handling it but that's never a red for me, similar stuff happens several times each game.
 
Jev said:
You think it should have been? The referee sure made a mess of handling it but that's never a red for me, similar stuff happens several times each game.
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No matter what you think (red/yellow/orange) when watching it in real time, once the red is shown how is it a "clear and obvious" error to show a red card for a hand in a face? Because over the past few weeks we've been conditioned to only glaring errors being checked by VAR.

That's what makes no sense with the entire process. Nobody knows what constitutes a clear and obvious error anymore, or what the law is, because apparently as of today it's an insane decision from a referee to show a red card for a hand in the face, to the extent that the SUPER HIGH BAR VAR will react, just a few weeks after everyone was in agreement that "once your hands go up to the neck or face then a red card must be shown" (but only when Casemiro does it, not when Coady or Ayew do it).
 
Anustart89 said:
No matter what you think (red/yellow/orange) when watching it in real time, once the red is shown how is it a "clear and obvious" error to show a red card for a hand in a face? Because over the past few weeks we've been conditioned to only glaring errors being checked by VAR.

That's what makes no sense with the entire process. Nobody knows what constitutes a clear and obvious error anymore, or what the law is, because apparently as of today it's an insane decision from a referee to show a red card for a hand in the face, to the extent that the SUPER HIGH BAR VAR will react, just a few weeks after everyone was in agreement that "once your hands go up to the neck or face then a red card must be shown" (but only when Casemiro does it, not when Coady or Ayew do it).
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It's because the whole process is ludicrously constructed to preserve the ego of the ref, who despite having limited information much of the time apparently has to be the final arbiter of everything.

The decision making today was reportedly:

-Ref didn't see the hand to the face
-His linesman saw it but wasn't sure who did it
-VAR was consulted and said Ziyech is the player in question
-Ref then shows red card
-VAR then says "heyo chap, maybe that red card offense that you didn't see wasn't actually a red, go have a look"
-Ref then goes to the monitor

So the issue here is that the ref didn't want to issue a red card in the first place - hence why the bar of "clear and obvious error" doesn't necessarily apply.

I'm obviously biased but I also thought it was pretty clear Ziyech shoved Royal in the shoulder and his hand just sort of deflected off of that awkwardly into grazing Royal's face? Considering what Atwell had let go (e.g. the ridiculous barge by Kane on Kepa) earlier, I don't think a yellow was out of line with the way the game had been officiated.
 
TheMagicFoolBus said:
It's because the whole process is ludicrously constructed to preserve the ego of the ref, who despite having limited information much of the time apparently has to be the final arbiter of everything.

The decision making today was reportedly:

-Ref didn't see the hand to the face
-His linesman saw it but wasn't sure who did it
-VAR was consulted and said Ziyech is the player in question
-Ref then shows red card
-VAR then says "heyo chap, maybe that red card offense that you didn't see wasn't actually a red, go have a look"
-Ref then goes to the monitor

So the issue here is that the ref didn't want to issue a red card in the first place - hence why the bar of "clear and obvious error" doesn't necessarily apply.

I'm obviously biased but I also thought it was pretty clear Ziyech shoved Royal in the shoulder and his hand just sort of deflected off of that awkwardly into grazing Royal's face? Considering what Atwell had let go (e.g. the ridiculous barge by Kane on Kepa) earlier, I don't think a yellow was out of line with the way the game had been officiated.
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Based on the Tweet from Dale Johnson above, VAR was only consulted on who the culprit was. The referees on the pitch then made their independent decision on the sanction (red card) for the hand going in the face, so surely the clear and obvious threshold should apply once the red card has been brandished.

I'm basically disagreeing with the second to last line of your timeline. It should (IMO) read, "heyo chap, that red card that you just showed is clearly and obviously and never in a million years a red card according to the laws of the game". It's not a missed incident per se because the assistant has informed him of a hand in the face, so it's not a case of no hand touching a face at all.

Once he's sent to the monitor then obviously everyone watching knows that VAR has told him he's made a mistake and they always* reverse their decisions upon getting sent to the screen, which puts him under massive pressure to actually reverse his decision, even if he's not made a "clear and obvious" mistake, because as people told us a few weeks ago, when your hands go up there it's always a red card (apart from Coady, Ayew, Ziyech, tbc...).
 
Anustart89 said:
Based on the Tweet from Dale Johnson above, VAR was only consulted on who the culprit was. The referees on the pitch then made their independent decision on the sanction (red card) for the hand going in the face, so surely the clear and obvious threshold should apply once the red card has been brandished.

I'm basically disagreeing with the second to last line of your timeline. It should (IMO) read, "heyo chap, that red card that you just showed is clearly and obviously and never in a million years a red card according to the laws of the game". Once he's sent to the monitor then obviously everyone watching knows that VAR has told him he's made a mistake and they always* reverse their decisions upon getting sent to the screen, which puts him under massive pressure to actually reverse his decision, even if he's not made a "clear and obvious" mistake, because as people told us a few weeks ago, when your hands go up there it's always a red card (apart from Coady, Ayew, Ziyech, tbc...).
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Well sure - but the issue is the initial call for a hand in the face came from the linesman, so that implies that Atwell didn't see it somehow. I don't think it's crazy to think that a lino from 25m away would be able to tell exactly what had happened - and again I would draw a distinction between shoving someone on the shoulder and it deflecting up oddly with hitting someone in the face directly (I do appreciate that this is perhaps some Olympic-level hair-splitting, though).
 
TheMagicFoolBus said:
Well sure - but the issue is the initial call for a hand in the face came from the linesman, so that implies that Atwell didn't see it somehow. I don't think it's crazy to think that a lino from 25m away would be able to tell exactly what had happened - and again I would draw a distinction between shoving someone on the shoulder and it deflecting up oddly with hitting someone in the face directly (I do appreciate that this is perhaps some Olympic-level hair-splitting, though).
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It doesn't really matter though. The ref and his assistants are a team. The call on the pitch was a red card based on the input from the linesman. The linesman doesn't make the call. The linesman says what he sees and the main official makes the call. It's the same with offsides, the linesman raises his flag but the flag doesn't stop play, play stops when the ref blows his whistle.

It's the same as if a linesman flags for a pen and the ref gives it on the pitch. It doesn't mean there's another set of rules where the clear and obvious threshold doesn't apply. VAR intervenes if the call on the pitch is a clear and obvious error, no matter if it's based on the referee, the assistant or the fourth official seeing the incident.

We can argue all day about deflections here or there, but his hand was up there so it could deflect up to the face, and the referee gave a red card. Was it a clear and obvious error to show a red card, given the high threshold for VAR interventions that they've applied recently? It's a no for me, based on how they have been applying the law. Based on what I personally think I think yellow's a fair decision.
 
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