VAR, Refs and Linesmen | General Discussion

It’s clearly a handball. Arm away from the body. But it’s not hard to understand why some would struggle seeing it as it is.

But the more important point is the idiocy of this new rule, which isn’t so new anymore. Nothing was broken. Now it is broken.
 
It's clearly not a handball. He's trying to move away from the ball, the arm is barely wide from his body and there's no movement by the arm towards the ball, rather the opposite.

The offensive handball rule is fecking stupid though, especially since they only seem to apply it when it suits them. The Scamacca goal where they just seemed to forget the rule comes to mind.
 
The Handball law awful at the moment. It really doesn't need to be. It's actually quite simple really.

Deliberate handball are fouls whatever.

Unintentional aren't fouls unless the player/team in question has gained an obvious unfair advantage from the ball striking the hand or the hand/arm is a long way from the body in a unatural posistion.

It's not a cut and dry rule it never has been and a certain amount of common sense needs to be applied.
 
Lahoz was at it again in Spain today. Ridiculous penalty decision and more cards than a hallmark shop.

 
As the rules are currently written correct to rule our goal out and to not give a pen for that block.
You can argue whether the rules should be changed or not for sure but no feck up today by var in that situation
 
Idxomer said:
Thanks. Definitely a red card, people were arguing that he is a likeable player when he's a cnut just like his dad.
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Celebrated winning that freekick like a cnut too.

He would have seen red for that if he played for Everton.
 
Said it in the PL gameweek thread, but worth repeating the idea here. While absolutely offside by the letter of the law, that Mitoma disallowed goal is completely antithetical to what the offside law is designed to prevent. Mitoma gains zero advantage by being past the defensive line when the ball is played. In fact, he's at a disadvantage because he has to come back farther to collect the ball!! Again, refs called it completely correctly but this has happened quite a lot since VAR has been introduced and it's a shame to see many good goals be ruled out for something the offside law didn't envision.

There's an easy fix for it too, simply change the law so that you can only be offside if the ball played to you breaks the defensive line. Easily enforceable by VAR, would not incentivize goal hanging and more goals would be scored. Defending would not be any harder either although it would take a bit to get used to. Think it would be a good, common sense change unlike the shite Wenger has been suggesting which will ruin the sport.
 
Idxomer said:
Thanks. Definitely a red card, people were arguing that he is a likeable player when he's a cnut just like his dad.
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He is an absolute cnut he should've got red for this. Funny how traits like likable come into things like making red and yellow card decisions...
 
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That Mitoma offside again got me thinking: Does anyone know how VAR determines when the ball was played before an offside?

I haven't been able to find an answer on Premier League's website and it seems like such a glaring oversight. When you are literally talking about less than a centimeter at times, it's obviously extremely relevant whether we are looking at the exact split second the ball was actually played.

So how can we trust that VAR dependably picks that particular frame? Does anyone know?
 
Jev said:
That Mitoma offside again got me thinking: Does anyone know how VAR determines when the ball was played before an offside?

I haven't been able to find an answer on Premier League's website and it seems like such a glaring oversight. When you are literally talking about less than a centimeter at times, it's obviously extremely relevant whether we are looking at the exact split second the ball was actually played.

So how can we trust that VAR dependably picks that particular frame? Does anyone know?
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They simply freeze frame it at the point they think it was played. You're absolutely right though, in that its ridiculous that we're talking millimeters in terms of offside but can't be sure exactly when it was played. There's no doubt this has made a difference to a number of those super tight calls. It's why there should be a greater margin of error.
 
It's pretty obvious what's going on.

Var looks for ANYTHING to disallow a goal AND Var looks for ANYTHING to prevent a goal.

It doesn't mean the Var operators are idiots. It just means the rules are fecking stupid
 
Carl said:
They simply freeze frame it at the point they think it was played. You're absolutely right though, in that its ridiculous that we're talking millimeters in terms of offside but can't be sure exactly when it was played. There's no doubt this has made a difference to a number of those super tight calls. It's why there should be a greater margin of error.
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Cheers, thanks for the answer. Yeah, it's hard to believe no-one has brought up this point before during discussions about VAR. It's obvious that a split second can be the difference between offside and onside when you're measuring in millimetres.

What got me thinking was this frame which is apparently the one VAR used ... and to me clearly not the exact moment the ball was played.

 
Longshanks said:
The Handball law awful at the moment. It really doesn't need to be. It's actually quite simple really.

Deliberate handball are fouls whatever.

Unintentional aren't fouls unless the player/team in question has gained an obvious unfair advantage from the ball striking the hand or the hand/arm is a long way from the body in a unatural posistion.

It's not a cut and dry rule it never has been and a certain amount of common sense needs to be applied.
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Totally agree with this. They have tried to create a rule which wasn’t necessary. Unfortunately there isn’t any common sense with refereeing any more, they have to follow the rule box which is the frustration as a football fan. No fan would think that Rashford goal should have been disallowed. His arm was by his side, he didn’t move it towards the ball, the ball merely rebounded off him in a split second. That is never an intentional handball so the goal should have stood.
 
Jev said:
Cheers, thanks for the answer. Yeah, it's hard to believe no-one has brought up this point before during discussions about VAR. It's obvious that a split second can be the difference between offside and onside when you're measuring in millimetres.

What got me thinking was this frame which is apparently the one VAR used ... and to me clearly not the exact moment the ball was played.

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Saw this on MOTD. Again no fan would ever think that’s offside. The back of his heel may be slightly off. We were told at the beginning of the season VAR would favour attackers. If that’s the case why was that even looked at, let alone ruled off. As you say depending in the frame you can make a player offside or not. VAR is floored because they want precision. I wanted VAR to stop poor refereeing decisions like yellows to reds, and missing clear offsides. Instead it’s being used to rule out goals where a player is offside by an inch.
 
Josep Dowling said:
Saw this on MOTD. Again no fan would ever think that’s offside. The back of his heel may be slightly off. We were told at the beginning of the season VAR would favour attackers. If that’s the case why was that even looked at, let alone ruled off. As you say depending in the frame you can make a player offside or not. VAR is floored because they want precision. I wanted VAR to stop poor refereeing decisions like yellows to reds, and missing clear offsides. Instead it’s being used to rule out goals where a player is offside by an inch.
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Yep, I agree, seems like it's primarily used to see if they can find some kind of excuse to rule out a goal. I doubt that's what most fans wished for before VAR was introduced. It's been years now and still overall clearly detrimental to the game.
 
Josep Dowling said:
Saw this on MOTD. Again no fan would ever think that’s offside. The back of his heel may be slightly off. We were told at the beginning of the season VAR would favour attackers. If that’s the case why was that even looked at, let alone ruled off. As you say depending in the frame you can make a player offside or not. VAR is floored because they want precision. I wanted VAR to stop poor refereeing decisions like yellows to reds, and missing clear offsides. Instead it’s being used to rule out goals where a player is offside by an inch.
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He’s a good foot offside?
 
Josep Dowling said:
Saw this on MOTD. Again no fan would ever think that’s offside. The back of his heel may be slightly off. We were told at the beginning of the season VAR would favour attackers. If that’s the case why was that even looked at, let alone ruled off. As you say depending in the frame you can make a player offside or not. VAR is floored because they want precision. I wanted VAR to stop poor refereeing decisions like yellows to reds, and missing clear offsides. Instead it’s being used to rule out goals where a player is offside by an inch.
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Yes, I think we got carried away here, not only the ones who operate and run VAR but also us fans. I did t want it re-ref the whole game. It is better than last year but it should be in place to spot obvious mistakes, things the refs clearly missed. That goal should have stood yesterday by Mitoma. With regards to offsides, it should be a clear one. Refs and assistants are getting lazy and now leaving things to VAR. Also I feel, we need to look at the feet, not the arms, shoulders and noses when it comes to judging an offside. VAR is doing it's job in large but we are still asking too much of it.
 
Jev said:
That Mitoma offside again got me thinking: Does anyone know how VAR determines when the ball was played before an offside?

I haven't been able to find an answer on Premier League's website and it seems like such a glaring oversight. When you are literally talking about less than a centimeter at times, it's obviously extremely relevant whether we are looking at the exact split second the ball was actually played.

So how can we trust that VAR dependably picks that particular frame? Does anyone know?
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This is one of my biggest issues with the system, too. My hope is, that all balls will have impact sensors like the ones used during the WC. Theoretically, they should be able to determine the precise moment of a pass if synced with the cameras. However, I’d be surprised if they managed to use the new information in a fair, transparent, and useful manner.
 
Just watched a quick replay of the Liverpool game why did the two Brentford goals get disallowed ? Might of been the speed of the highlights I was watching but they looked fine to me.
 
Gums said:
This is one of my biggest issues with the system, too. My hope is, that all balls will have impact sensors like the ones used during the WC. Theoretically, they should be able to determine the precise moment of a pass if synced with the cameras. However, I’d be surprised if they managed to use the new information in a fair, transparent, and useful manner.
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Ball and feet. Problem solved. You could even have a live overview of the game with dots representing players, like in FM and the computer AI could learn to recognise patterns and be able to immediately solve these decisions and send that info to the refs watch. He'd just KNOW the correct decision half a second after it happens. Flash red for offside, no need for a linesman.

Later, Expand to sensors in the shirt edges, wristbands, then the AI can modulate the actual body shape and size and a lot of info will be readily available on the computer. Corners would be easy to get correct. Through learning the AI could be able to measure impact, speed, etc. All kinds of information can be used to predict and create baselines for consistency in the rules. If and when the AI is near the perfect ref, the actual ref should use that help to become a better ref himself.
 
jymufc20 said:
Just watched a quick replay of the Liverpool game why did the two Brentford goals get disallowed ? Might of been the speed of the highlights I was watching but they looked fine to me.
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Wissa(?) came back from offside position to score first
Ball hit Mee in offside position on way in for second
 
Josep Dowling said:
Saw this on MOTD. Again no fan would ever think that’s offside. The back of his heel may be slightly off. We were told at the beginning of the season VAR would favour attackers. If that’s the case why was that even looked at, let alone ruled off. As you say depending in the frame you can make a player offside or not. VAR is floored because they want precision. I wanted VAR to stop poor refereeing decisions like yellows to reds, and missing clear offsides. Instead it’s being used to rule out goals where a player is offside by an inch.
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You're either offside or not. It's an absolute.
 
I'd love to hear the absolute bollocks reasoning the ref gave United players for allowing Bournemouth to retake that free kick.

They make rules up, every fecking week.
 
Shane88 said:
I'd love to hear the absolute bollocks reasoning the ref gave United players for allowing Bournemouth to retake that free kick.

They make rules up, every fecking week.
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Michael Salisbury was tonight's ref. First time I have seen him and he was absolutely atrocious. Let Bournemouth get away with loads of fouls. Two challenges on Van de Beek and Garnacho were shocking, yet just one yellow card issued for the Garnacho one. He let two fouls go in quick succession before finally blowing for the third, from which we scored our opening goal. And that was utter tripe letting them retake a free kick after United had quickly won the ball back from the original taking.
 
Seeing all those triggering of Arsenal fans on twitter after that Gabriel(the cnut) shirt grabbing is joyful especially Newcastle did the same thing to us with that blatant penalty on Sancho that the ref and VAR just ignored
 
Fitchett said:
Michael Salisbury was tonight's ref. First time I have seen him and he was absolutely atrocious. Let Bournemouth get away with loads of fouls. Two challenges on Van de Beek and Garnacho were shocking, yet just one yellow card issued for the Garnacho one. He let two fouls go in quick succession before finally blowing for the third, from which we scored our opening goal. And that was utter tripe letting them retake a free kick after United had quickly won the ball back from the original taking.
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Agreed. He was awful tonight even if it didn’t affect the result. No card for the tackle on VdB. Letting them retake that free kick. Also thought we should have had a pen from a handball as well.
 
Don't understand the rules anymore. That tackle on Donny was a strange one the guy was never in any control when he hit Donny so red is debatable but always a card. The handball was another thing were they simply let it go. Taking the free kick into his own player and picking up the ball was a new one. Atrocious refereeing.
 
I don’t understand it anymore, what has to be done to ensure shocking refereeing is no longer part of the game? If anything it’s becoming normalized.

The Premier League claims to be the best league in the world, yet the refereeing standard is terrible.. the brand of the Premier League will be devalued, surely that will be enough impetus to fix this obvious issue?
 
Any idea when was the last time we've got a penalty ? Since that Klopp comment we don't get anything anymore

And when our managers criticize the refs post match - we're automatically get punished
 
Get In Scholesy said:
I don’t understand it anymore, what has to be done to ensure shocking refereeing is no longer part of the game? If anything it’s becoming normalized.

The Premier League claims to be the best league in the world, yet the refereeing standard is terrible.. the brand of the Premier League will be devalued, surely that will be enough impetus to fix this obvious issue?
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It has absolutely plummeted in quality.
 
SAF is the GOAT said:
Any idea when was the last time we've got a penalty ? Since that Klopp comment we don't get anything anymore

And when our managers criticize the refs post match - we're automatically get punished
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I’ve just looked and in the prem, in the 2.5 seasons until Klopp made his comments we’d had 32 penalties. In the two years since, approx 2 seasons, we’ve had 11. Im not sure what has changed in that time.
 
Coufal with a clear stamp on Summerville - ball nowhere near, yet VAR is completely quiet. Could/should have been a red imo.
 
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