VAR, Refs and Linesmen | General Discussion
- Thread starter Samid
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Pretty clear from the audio that the VAR didn't think it was a red card.
But the process is such that he ended up (rather hesitantly) deciding to leave it to the onfield decision.
Which will always be a risk when you require the VAR to make a subjective call as to whether something is enough of a mistake to reach an ambiguous threshold for being overturned, rather than empowering them to act when they simply don't think it is a red card.
The only comfort is that we looked so shit in that game that I don't think it ultimately mattered.
But the process is such that he ended up (rather hesitantly) deciding to leave it to the onfield decision.
Which will always be a risk when you require the VAR to make a subjective call as to whether something is enough of a mistake to reach an ambiguous threshold for being overturned, rather than empowering them to act when they simply don't think it is a red card.
The only comfort is that we looked so shit in that game that I don't think it ultimately mattered.
Sick of saying how easy this is to sort. Follow rugby… review reds and work backwards re danger/punishment.
Ref “red card. Looked high, deliberate and studs/dangerous. Let’s see replays please”
VAR “ok, on-field decision is red card, here’s the replays showing how he tackled, how connected and I can see a slip which may/may not have impacted”
Ref sees replays “thanks. For me, slip but still a deliberate foul. Don’t see excessive force or player endangerment so think it’s a yellow. Agreed?”
VAR “agreed”.
Rugby doesn’t care about a ref looking wrong and neither does a ref (better than get slated after a game for making a stupid decision). They look at tech as something to help reach correct decisions on KEY situations only.
Ref “red card. Looked high, deliberate and studs/dangerous. Let’s see replays please”
VAR “ok, on-field decision is red card, here’s the replays showing how he tackled, how connected and I can see a slip which may/may not have impacted”
Ref sees replays “thanks. For me, slip but still a deliberate foul. Don’t see excessive force or player endangerment so think it’s a yellow. Agreed?”
VAR “agreed”.
Rugby doesn’t care about a ref looking wrong and neither does a ref (better than get slated after a game for making a stupid decision). They look at tech as something to help reach correct decisions on KEY situations only.
Absolute bottlers. They know it's not serious foul play by any of the metrics. He literally talks through how it's not a red then goes with the refs decision.
Should the lino really need to be so vociferous about it? He sounds like an opposition fan there.
Not at all surprised that the VAR who pointed out all the negatives to Bruno's challenge was a scouser. While the other VAR was seemingly making the case for the defence, and clearly pauses before reluctantly agreeing to the 'refs call' judgement.
That's one of the most baffling things for me about this entire concept. If you care so much of protecting the referee's reputation and authority as to not call him to the screen to "prove him wrong" when he's made a mistake that wasn't "clear and obvious" — this reasoning isn't directly stated in the rules but the likes of Gallagher and other refs have said enough to get that it's their main priority — surely allowing him to correct his mistake immediately is so much better than letting him feck up...
Will United players forget about this when Kavanagh gets assigned to their game next time? Will United fans? This one decision (even though the main mistake wasn't even his — it was 1. VAR's 2. the system itself with that arbitrary threshold) is going to haunt him for years now and for what... so that he doesn't lose the respect of the players during the game? But he did...
For me the main problem with refs getting referred to the screen was that it was to find an offence that existed only in slow motion. And inevitably, or 9 times out of 10, the refs would change their mind. Usually it was because the goal would be disallowed for something that was never a foul prior to VAR, or the slow-motion handball/foul looked 100 times worse after they'd froze the screen and rewound it back 10 times. Here it was the reverse, where the foul in slow motion actually didn't look as bad as the red card would have portrayed it to be. So all the more reason to refer it to VAR.
The ref's run over to the screen is just bullshit window dressing now, since Howard Webb decided so. Everybody already knows the decision is changing at that point, regardless of what gets put on the screen. It's an appalling use of the technology.
But yeah, the selective angles and slow motion loops etc were a joke too. My personal favourite was the one where Casemiro grabbed somebody's shirt collar, and VAR only shows the ref a 0.5 second loop of the only possible angle where he actually looks like Homer Simpson strangling Bart.
A total car crash of a decision. The assistant getting so giddy about it just created an impossible situation, and the VAR and AVAR was just trying to confirm it anyway possible. Completely absurd.
It's brushed off because we lost 3-0 in the end and were shit, but at 2-0, 11v11, it was a massive decision that is genuinely infuriating.
It was 1-0 wasn’t it? And just before half time where we had the chance to regroup.
Yes, we could still have turned the game around
The club needs to flex some muscle and get that assistant referee banned from United matches.
He says "That's awful, mate! That's a red card! 100%" before Maddison even hits the ground.
That is outrageous refereeing, it is falsely hyping the ref up to make a big decision. Make an official complaint about him.
He says "That's awful, mate! That's a red card! 100%" before Maddison even hits the ground.
That is outrageous refereeing, it is falsely hyping the ref up to make a big decision. Make an official complaint about him.
This is what we never do. We never create a scene like other clubs do. If you were to ask a random bloke what the most controversial refereeing moment this season was, they would focus on the Arsenal yellows. Because there was a big hue and cry. For us, in a completely winnable situation, the decision completely fecked us. Just think of what Liverpool did vs. Spurs last season which was essentially a decision of similar consequence.
I'll bet you've never run the line or even reffed a match.
When I watched it live, that was my immediate reaction
Which then upon watching video footage you changed your mind….
When I heard the accent I thought it was a parody, like the Scottish commentator vs hand of god and the Lampard vs Germany ghost goal
Doesn't matter if I've reffed a match. They're supposed to be professionals in the "bestest league ever", not talking like lads down the pub shouting at the telly. Act like rugby refs.
0:52
"I reckon that challenge might be worth another look" rather than being a hysterical twat shouting for red cards before a player has even hit the floor.
What makes their explanation completely unacceptable is the fact that the audio clearly shows that the ‘on-field’ decision was influenced from off the field. The AR goes straight in with ‘100% red card’, while Kavanagh notably says nothing throughout the entire episode. When they then recognised their error off the field, it is ridiculous to defer to the ‘on-field’ decision that was taken with no conviction whatsoever and the referee was clearly following instructions in the first place.
My initial reaction was that it looked a little dodgy and that I'd like another look. Two others that I watched the game with didn't think anything of it initially (they are non United fans) and along with myself upon seeing the replay and VAR expected it to be overturned.
As someone else has pointed out, an official should be far calmer and saying "Kav, that could be a potential red. You might want a review" and not "That's awful. That's a red card for me, red card, 100%" "100%".
You also cannot compare the matches that take place across the country from the EFL down to grass roots and if a Cafe member has refereed or run the line (most likely at grassroots). When we are seeing the incompetence regularly in the 10 matches a weekend that have the benefit of VAR but are still fecking decisions up left, right and center.
Ha Ha the VAR was a scouser!! It all makes sense
It was only 0-1 when he was sent off wasn’t it?
It is not easy if the refs have egos that are butthurt when corrected. False pride and all that...
Is this for real? Or something made up with AI? If this is for real, our club need to complain. Something we should have done lot of times previous seasons. This decision is just crazy and the way they come up with.
3 points lost.
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The assistant (the Lino?) sounds like an over excited opposition fan. Massively influenced the decision making process going off like that.
Shouldn't be near our games in the future.
Shouldn't be near our games in the future.
Lee Betts is his name, for future reference of him fecking us over.
It's quite... admirable that you still stand your ground even when literally everyone including the independent committee and Howard Webb himself admitted that it was a mistake and it shouldn't have been a red card.
I'd forgotten that! Makes it even more egregious
Don't think there's anything wrong with saying it looked like a red first time around. He's said it isn't after seeing a replay. Which is exactly what var should have done.
Yeah I changed my mind, after watching several video's and seeing an image that neither the Ref or VAR saw on the day.
Had the assistant had the benefit of your hindsight on the day he probably wouldn't have said what he did.
You’re not a professional match official though are you?
This isn’t Sunday League.
His reaction was hysterical by Caf standards and wholly unprofessional and emotional.
It was almost like the YNFA Jimmy Liddel commentary…”he spat at him ref and it was miiiiles offside mate”
Get your facts straight.
I said before Webb that it wasn't a a red and before the appeal was heard, that was after watching numerous video's and seeing a conclusive picture, all of which were not available on the day.
If I had been that Assistant and that Ref on the day, based on what we saw I would've awarded a red.
Unlike a lot of people on this fourm, I'm not perfect, I make mistakes, but at least I have the balls to admit it when I do
You don't know me, you don't know what standard I reffed at, so pipe down
The audio makes me think that the var system is actually worse than I thought. What a mess - a giddy linesman shrieking the same way a fan would, a ref who couldnt see anything giving a red, even though a yellow would still be checked by VAR, and a var team who quite clearly dont think its a red but, what....dont really like bruno fernandes? Its probably the worst audio clip so far - a complete mess without structure or process.
The linesman should obviously be stood down, but Kavanagh should never ever give a red for something he cant see. He knows it will be checked.
The linesman should obviously be stood down, but Kavanagh should never ever give a red for something he cant see. He knows it will be checked.
yes and people act as if this united team isnt unpredictable from game to game. we were 2 down at home to villa last season, looking awful, then battered them and won 3-2. The reason this keeps happening united is very simple - nobody cares. These guys didnt even get a punishment. Now pretend it WAS probably a red card and imagine they overturned it. In that case the fans of 91 other clubs would be baying for their blood.
Even worse - imagine if the roles were reversed and Bruno feigned injury after Maddison had made that same slip. He would be getting crucified by the media still today.
I find it odd that people dont see how simple this explanation is. The ferguson years did a serious number on opposition fans, and we've been paying for them since. It is just easier to give a big call against united than for united.
Can the ref hear that? Or is that audio overlayed and edited?
Because under no set of circumstances should the ref have a VAR in his ear during live play. That’s insane.