VAR, Refs and Linesmen | General Discussion

SER19 said:
The audio makes me think that the var system is actually worse than I thought. What a mess - a giddy linesman shrieking the same way a fan would, a ref who couldnt see anything giving a red, even though a yellow would still be checked by VAR, and a var team who quite clearly dont think its a red but, what....dont really like bruno fernandes? Its probably the worst audio clip so far - a complete mess without structure or process.

The linesman should obviously be stood down, but Kavanagh should never ever give a red for something he cant see. He knows it will be checked.
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Kavanagh gave it on the Assistants say so, he didn't actually see the offence.
Before the days of headsets, the assistant would have flagged, and the Ref would have sopken to him and then awarded the red, (or yellow) I've actually been an assistant and done that exact thing thing.
( A player called me an effing cnut) I flagged, the Ref came over, I told him what happened and the player walked for foul and abusive language.

We don't see this happening anymore, it may be the case where in situations like this that the Ref actually goes over to the assistant, personally I think the officials on the field are relying too much on VAR, and are afraid of being overruled.
 
UnrelatedPsuedo said:
Can the ref hear that? Or is that audio overlayed and edited?

Because under no set of circumstances should the ref have a VAR in his ear during live play. That’s insane.
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It's not the VAR saying it, it's the assistant ref (linesman) on that side, and it's live feed to the ref
 
Matt Varnish said:
You don't know me, you don't know what standard I reffed at, so pipe down
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Yeah, to be fair considering it took Mr Varnish so long to realise it should never have been a red card, he may have been an EPL ref.
 
Shane88 said:
The club needs to flex some muscle and get that assistant referee banned from United matches.

He says "That's awful, mate! That's a red card! 100%" before Maddison even hits the ground.

That is outrageous refereeing, it is falsely hyping the ref up to make a big decision. Make an official complaint about him.
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That's the assistants job!
I would imagine that during a match there is a lot of chatter between the officials on the field, when I had my team we used hand signals to help each other out, you have to have a means of communication.
Ref's as part of their pre-match briefing will tell assistants what they want to hear, and what to do, assistants are there as two extra pairs of eyes, not jsut to flad for offside and ball out of play.
 
sebsheep said:
Yeah, to be fair considering it took Mr Varnish so long to realise it should never have been a red card, he may have been an EPL ref.
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Yeah according to the appeal at least four of us got it wrong on the day, as I have said before, when you are perfect criticise, I had the balls to admit I was wrong, lets hope you do the same when you make a cock up.
 
Matt Varnish said:
That's the assistants job!
I would imagine that during a match there is a lot of chatter between the officials on the field, when I had my team we used hand signals to help each other out, you have to have a means of communication.
Ref's as part of their pre-match briefing will tell assistants what they want to hear, and what to do, assistants are there as two extra pairs of eyes, not jsut to flad for offside and ball out of play.
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They’re professional referees. The audio isn’t very professional. It’s a tackle, it’s not a head on collision where he needs to warn someone in a split second. Just calm down, state what you actually saw so that the referee can make a decision. Screaming about it being an awful tackle and 100% red card isn’t being very professional.
 
Matt Varnish said:
Yeah according to the appeal at least four of us got it wrong on the day, as I have said before, when you are perfect criticise, I had the balls to admit I was wrong, lets hope you do the same when you make a cock up.
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Have you only admitted you were wrong about the red card, or did you also include you not understanding VAR? (Just checking)
 
Cannot believe there is a defence of that assistant. Its appalling stuff, no composure whatsoever, shouting red card 100% before he's even had a breath. You can even hear spurs players arguing for the red based on his reaction. I fully believe a spurs fan from the crowd would have been more composed. He shouldn't be on the line at old Trafford ever again

His name is Richard West btw, was on var when Harvey Elliott dived over wan bisakka to win a pen at OT last season
 
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Matt Varnish said:
Yeah I changed my mind, after watching several video's and seeing an image that neither the Ref or VAR saw on the day.
Had the assistant had the benefit of your hindsight on the day he probably wouldn't have said what he did.
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How do you know what angles/images VAR had that were different from yours?
 
UnrelatedPsuedo said:
Can the ref hear that? Or is that audio overlayed and edited?

Because under no set of circumstances should the ref have a VAR in his ear during live play. That’s insane.
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Was just about to say this. Surely that's am open channel like that?

Edit: It is and that was the linesman? Sheesh.
 
Matt Varnish said:
You don't know me, you don't know what standard I reffed at, so pipe down
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sebsheep said:
Yeah, to be fair considering it took Mr Varnish so long to realise it should never have been a red card, he may have been an EPL ref.
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Joking aside, what level have you reffed at then? Professional?

The audio is anything but professional in my opinion. Something I’ve noticed since its inception. It’s very worrying.
 
NotChatGPT said:
They’re professional referees. The audio isn’t very professional. It’s a tackle, it’s not a head on collision where he needs to warn someone in a split second. Just calm down, state what you actually saw so that the referee can make a decision. Screaming about it being an awful tackle and 100% red card isn’t being very professional.
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The Assistant is not screaming, to me he sounds quite calm, and put the info to the Ref in a calm manner, if you consider that "screaming" then you've never had kids go through the toddler stage.

The referee didn't award the card, the assistant did, Webb backs this up on the Mic'd Up show.
NotChatGPT said:
Have you only admitted you were wrong about the red card, or did you also include you not understanding VAR? (Just checking)
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I fully understand VAR and how it is used in yellow and red card situations, perhaps you do not understand that VAR review every yellow and red card awarded.

What is worrying about this, and for future red card awards, is that the decision of four officials on the day has been overturned by people watching a video (with hindsight), and not backing the on field decision.
I put a lot of this down to media pressure, occasionally Refs and asistants will get it wrong, like I did.

I have been to red card appeals, because my opening gambit has always been
"You were not there on the day, you did not see the offence in real time"
"if you rescind this red card, you undermine my authority, and put me in aposition where I cannot referee anymore games"
I never lost an appeal where even with hindsight I thought the card was justified.
I have on a couple of occasions, with hindsight, asked for the card to be rescinded.
 
Berbasbullet said:
How do you know what angles/images VAR had that were different from yours?
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There's this marvellous thing called the internet, and it has things called search engines.
If you use them wisely and properly you can find all sorts of stuff.
Some of us do interesting stuff, you know look for you tube video's fan video's etc, others just watch porn
 
TheReligion said:
Joking aside, what level have you reffed at then? Professional?

The audio is anything but professional in my opinion. Something I’ve noticed since its inception. It’s very worrying.
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I ref'd at what I would call a profesional standard, a standard high enough that I had to declare which if any team(s) I supported or had an affiliation with.
Like all ref's in those days I also had to ref at county level, most weekends if time and travel alloweed I woud do at least 3 games on a weekend.
Saurday morning Juniors, Afternoon seniors, Sundays, Sunday league.
Back in those days teh pay barely covered your expenses, most of the time fee's for junior clubs were donated back to the club.
 
Matt Varnish said:
The Assistant is not screaming, to me he sounds quite calm, and put the info to the Ref in a calm manner, if you consider that "screaming" then you've never had kids go through the toddler stage.

The referee didn't award the card, the assistant did, Webb backs this up on the Mic'd Up show.

I fully understand VAR and how it is used in yellow and red card situations, perhaps you do not understand that VAR review every yellow and red card awarded.

What is worrying about this, and for future red card awards, is that the decision of four officials on the day has been overturned by people watching a video (with hindsight), and not backing the on field decision.
I put a lot of this down to media pressure, occasionally Refs and asistants will get it wrong, like I did.
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«That’s awful mate, that’s a red card for me, red card 100%»

It’s not very professional, nor is he quite calm or providing any actual information apart from it being awful and in his opinion a clear red card. A professional way of informing the referee would be to state where and how he believes Bruno Fernandes hits Maddison. Which would make it a lot easier for VAR to review the situation towards the threshold of clear and obvious.

Again, you keep saying that you fully understand VAR and how it’s being used, but you continue to display no actual understanding whatsoever on the thresholds in place for recommending the referee to watch it on video. Based on what you’re writing, it’s tempting to state that you don’t really understand it at all.

You also keep bringing up your own meaningless experiences, which is great?

No, what is worrying is that there’s a system in place to improve the decision making, but meaningless thresholds means that you get different outcomes from similar/identical situations.
 
It's laughable that they're not only going out of their way to protect the referee's decision but even the Assistant's opinion has to be protected.
Honestly I don't know why the referees can't ask for advice from VAR when when they are unsure or haven't seen an incident properly.

Ideally for me in an incident like this the linesman should advise the referee calmly that he thinks the tackle should be reviewed, and the referee should ask for VARs imput. VAR should then decide whether they think it's A)Red card. B)Not a red card. C)Subjective enough that the Ref should be sent to the monitor.
 
Matt Varnish said:
The Assistant is not screaming, to me he sounds quite calm, and put the info to the Ref in a calm manner, if you consider that "screaming" then you've never had kids go through the toddler stage.

The referee didn't award the card, the assistant did, Webb backs this up on the Mic'd Up show.

I fully understand VAR and how it is used in yellow and red card situations, perhaps you do not understand that VAR review every yellow and red card awarded.

What is worrying about this, and for future red card awards, is that the decision of four officials on the day has been overturned by people watching a video (with hindsight), and not backing the on field decision.
I put a lot of this down to media pressure, occasionally Refs and asistants will get it wrong, like I did.

I have been to red card appeals, because my opening gambit has always been
"You were not there on the day, you did not see the offence in real time"
"if you rescind this red card, you undermine my authority, and put me in aposition where I cannot referee anymore games"
I never lost an appeal where even with hindsight I thought the card was justified.
I have on a couple of occasions, with hindsight, asked for the card to be rescinded.
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It’s pretty wild that as an ex referee you have exactly the shitty attitude we accuse referees of having and you’re like, actually telling us that’s exactly how you think as a referee rather than denying it.


You seriously don’t see the problem with attempting to preserve referees authority over actually getting a call right?

If your authority comes from being backed regardless of your actions rather than from the respect your actions earn, the truth is that you have no authority and that’s the case for pretty much every single premier league referee now because rather than be open and honest and strive to have the best decision at all times they would rather cover for each other and gaslight.
 
Matt Varnish said:
The Assistant is not screaming, to me he sounds quite calm, and put the info to the Ref in a calm manner, if you consider that "screaming" then you've never had kids go through the toddler stage.

The referee didn't award the card, the assistant did, Webb backs this up on the Mic'd Up show.

I fully understand VAR and how it is used in yellow and red card situations, perhaps you do not understand that VAR review every yellow and red card awarded.

What is worrying about this, and for future red card awards, is that the decision of four officials on the day has been overturned by people watching a video (with hindsight), and not backing the on field decision.
I put a lot of this down to media pressure, occasionally Refs and asistants will get it wrong, like I did.

I have been to red card appeals, because my opening gambit has always been
"You were not there on the day, you did not see the offence in real time"
"if you rescind this red card, you undermine my authority, and put me in aposition where I cannot referee anymore games"
I never lost an appeal where even with hindsight I thought the card was justified.
I have on a couple of occasions, with hindsight, asked for the card to be rescinded.
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The attitude displayed in this post is 100% why we get these types of poor outcomes even though the refs have access to multiple angles of every incident.

You can't seriously be suggesting they should have upheld the incorrect decision to award a red card. You're taking the piss.
 
NotChatGPT said:
«That’s awful mate, that’s a red card for me, red card 100%»

It’s not very professional, nor is he quite calm or providing any actual information apart from it being awful and in his opinion a clear red card. A professional way of informing the referee would be to state where and how he believes Bruno Fernandes hits Maddison. Which would make it a lot easier for VAR to review the situation towards the threshold of clear and obvious.

Again, you keep saying that you fully understand VAR and how it’s being used, but you continue to display no actual understanding whatsoever on the thresholds in place for recommending the referee to watch it on video. Based on what you’re writing, it’s tempting to state that you don’t really understand it at all.

You also keep bringing up your own meaningless experiences, which is great?

No, what is worrying is that there’s a system in place to improve the decision making, but meaningless thresholds means that you get different outcomes from similar/identical situations.
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Nope I fully understand it.
If VAR were in any doubt they would have asked Kavanagh to go to the screen, in this instant they didn't, they were under the impression the onfield decisions was right, and they say so.
You keep stating "Clear and Obvious" well that is only half of it, VAR is also there to review what isn't clear and obvious and bring the play back to things the onfield team may miss.
You are so well informed, you tell me what are the thresholds ?
I don't think you do, and you are using the same old argument to justfy it.

Any way, I'm done with this thread, it's over, the card has been rescinded so any further commentary is pointless.
 
The VAR mic'd up is really stitching these guys up big time consistently this year :lol: . The negligence in communication and what they are actually looking at is astonishingly bad.
 
Matt Varnish said:
Nope I fully understand it.
If VAR were in any doubt they would have asked Kavanagh to go to the screen, in this instant they didn't, they were under the impression the onfield decisions was right, and they say so.
You keep stating "Clear and Obvious" well that is only half of it, VAR is also there to review what isn't clear and obvious and bring the play back to things the onfield team may miss.
You are so well informed, you tell me what are the thresholds ?
I don't think you do, and you are using the same old argument to justfy it.

Any way, I'm done with this thread, it's over, the card has been rescinded so any further commentary is pointless.
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Not sure what to say, but it's obvious you're not anywhere near fully understanding VAR, nor what actually happens in the clip.

https://www.premierleague.com/news/4108701

This season the Premier League is introducing a term, “Referee's Call”, when communicating about VAR. Can you explain?
Tony Scholes: One of the difficulties around VAR for the last couple of years is the lack of clarity as to when the VAR should or should not intervene.

“Referee’s Call” really is just an introduction of a terminology to make it clear that the initial decision by the on-pitch official is critical. It’s similar to what exists in other sports like cricket and “Umpire’s Call”. The referee’s call should stand unless the VAR, based on readily available evidence, can see without doubt the on-pitch official has made a clear mistake. In the absence of that clear evidence, the referee’s call will stand.

Threshold for intervention​

-The ‘Referee’s Call’ will stand, unless, in the opinion of the VAR, based on the evidence readily available, that call is a ‘clear and
obvious error’

-Good officiating starts on the pitch – the referee must make an on-field decision ‘Referee’s Call’

-Clear evidence required to meet higher threshold for subjective intervention, taking into account what football expects

-VAR checks the readily available footage and applies the ‘clear and obvious’ test – technology will provide evidence for factual decisions

-The on-field Referee will make the final decision
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Webb has made it clear that he wants VAR to intervene less, specifically when it's a subjective decision. Kavanagh has made an on-pitch decision based on his assistant seeing the tackle and recommending it's a red card. VAR looks at the clip with the objective to determine if there's reason to intervene. In the clip you don't hear them giving an impression that it's a right or wrong decision, they describe what they see and conclude that Bruno hits Maddison at shin height, but there's no studs to his shin nor does he rake down with his studs. The problem is that there is actual contact between the players and the referee has made a subjective decision from his point of view, which leaves them in a situation where they are well aware that the threshold for subjective intervention is very high and the higher ups wants less of it. Recommending intervention is more likely to land you in trouble than not recommending intervention with it comes to subjective decisions.

With subjective decisions where there's been contact, if it's a penalty situation or potential red card check, where the referee has made a subjective decision, it's highly unlikely that its going to result in VAR recommending the on-pitch referee to review the situation on the monitor.

It's a meaningless arbitrary threshold that by design prevent VAR from intervening.
 
Matt Varnish said:
The Assistant is not screaming, to me he sounds quite calm, and put the info to the Ref in a calm manner, if you consider that "screaming" then you've never had kids go through the toddler stage.

The referee didn't award the card, the assistant did, Webb backs this up on the Mic'd Up show.

I fully understand VAR and how it is used in yellow and red card situations, perhaps you do not understand that VAR review every yellow and red card awarded.

What is worrying about this, and for future red card awards, is that the decision of four officials on the day has been overturned by people watching a video (with hindsight), and not backing the on field decision.
I put a lot of this down to media pressure, occasionally Refs and asistants will get it wrong, like I did.

I have been to red card appeals, because my opening gambit has always been
"You were not there on the day, you did not see the offence in real time"
"if you rescind this red card, you undermine my authority, and put me in aposition where I cannot referee anymore games"
I never lost an appeal where even with hindsight I thought the card was justified.
I have on a couple of occasions, with hindsight, asked for the card to be rescinded.
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You sound like a shit referee. High on the smell of your own farts.
 
Withnail said:
It was the linesman that said that and it was why the ref produced the red card.
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That’s only marginally better. He sounds like a teenager who’s spotted a little side boob in a movie while his mates in the kitchen. The kinda fella that claps after his own shit hits toilet water.

What possible justification is there for that response? He’s not the referee, he should have his mouth shut. If he needs to say anything, it needs to be go no further than ‘get a second look at that, I couldn’t see it properly’. Not making a decision in a split second from miles away.

What a twat.
 
MF1138 said:
It's laughable that they're not only going out of their way to protect the referee's decision but even the Assistant's opinion has to be protected.
Honestly I don't know why the referees can't ask for advice from VAR when when they are unsure or haven't seen an incident properly.

Ideally for me in an incident like this the linesman should advise the referee calmly that he thinks the tackle should be reviewed, and the referee should ask for VARs imput. VAR should then decide whether they think it's A)Red card. B)Not a red card. C)Subjective enough that the Ref should be sent to the monitor.
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Again we’re back to how daft the system is, as we’ve seen many times with penalty situations where you essentially end up in a twilight zone:

Referee awards penalty - VAR won’t overturn it
Referee doesn’t award penalty - VAR won’t overturn it.

And both outcomes are somehow equally right, or equally wrong depending on how you want to view it.

It should be fairly simple, everything on the pitch happens fast and most decisions made are going to be made in a bit of a rush and when you have a high pulse. There’s going to be situations where you aren’t really sure, but the outcome of you blowing the whistle or not means that you’ve already set a very high bar for VAR to intervene, and for subjective decisions you more or less prevent them from intervening.

Just open up the threshold and keep a dialogue. Make it a bit like offsides where if you’re not sure about something you let the match continue and then advise VAR that there was a situation you’re not really sure about that you want to discuss.

Sadly, it’s just never going to happen with Webb in charge. He’s been adamant about on the pitch decisions and preventing re-refereeing, and we’ve clearly moved in the wrong direction with him making sure the threshold for intervention in subjective decisions is higher than before. No one is actually challenging him on it either
 
UnrelatedPsuedo said:
That’s only marginally better. He sounds like a teenager who’s spotted a little side boob in a movie while his mates in the kitchen. The kinda fella that claps after his own shit hits toilet water.

What possible justification is there for that response? He’s not the referee, he should have his mouth shut. If he needs to say anything, it needs to be go no further than ‘get a second look at that, I couldn’t see it properly’. Not making a decision in a split second from miles away.

What a twat.
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It’s fine that he makes the referee aware of a situation he’s seen, but it’s bonkers that he keeps going on about how it’s an awful one and a 100% red card. Just calm down and describe the situation as he saw it, the referee has plenty of time to pull out a card and sort out the situation, there’s no rush.
 
NotChatGPT said:
Again we’re back to how daft the system is, as we’ve seen many times with penalty situations where you essentially end up in a twilight zone:

Referee awards penalty - VAR won’t overturn it
Referee doesn’t award penalty - VAR won’t overturn it.

And both outcomes are somehow equally right, or equally wrong depending on how you want to view it.

It should be fairly simple, everything on the pitch happens fast and most decisions made are going to be made in a bit of a rush and when you have a high pulse. There’s going to be situations where you aren’t really sure, but the outcome of you blowing the whistle or not means that you’ve already set a very high bar for VAR to intervene, and for subjective decisions you more or less prevent them from intervening.

Just open up the threshold and keep a dialogue. Make it a bit like offsides where if you’re not sure about something you let the match continue and then advise VAR that there was a situation you’re not really sure about that you want to discuss.

Sadly, it’s just never going to happen with Webb in charge. He’s been adamant about on the pitch decisions and preventing re-refereeing, and we’ve clearly moved in the wrong direction with him making sure the threshold for intervention in subjective decisions is higher than before. No one is actually challenging him on it either
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Yep. He's only made things worse. And then comes out with statements about how things have improved. But the truth is that they're only improved based on his own biased judgment. It's easy to say how good a job you're doing if you're the one reviewing yourself.
 
Posh Red said:
That’s the assistant ref. It does make sense for the assistants and ref to be able to converse.
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Yeah, someone else corrected me.

It’s still mental that he shouts like a teenager after his first beer, instantly. He sounds like a Spurs fan in the stand.
 
Matt Varnish said:
The Assistant is not screaming, to me he sounds quite calm, and put the info to the Ref in a calm manner, if you consider that "screaming" then you've never had kids go through the toddler stage.

The referee didn't award the card, the assistant did, Webb backs this up on the Mic'd Up show.
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If that is quite calm then no wonder you're lost in the sauce. Using a toddler as some sort of comparison doesn't serve the purpose you think it does.

The guy literally just says" that's awful, red card, 100% red card" He has relayed no information to the ref other than his shitty opinion. A good professional would have said something like " high challenge, caught him in the shin area, might have been a slip beforehand" basically information the ref can then use to make his own decision.
 
Desert Eagle said:
If that is quite calm then no wonder you're lost in the sauce. Using a toddler as some sort of comparison doesn't serve the purpose you think it does.

The guy literally just says" that's awful, red card, 100% red card" He has relayed no information to the ref other than his shitty opinion. A good professional would have said something like " high challenge, caught him in the shin area, might have been a slip beforehand" basically information the ref can then use to make his own decision.
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Absolutely agree.

Considering they are a professional body of match officials one this audio keeps doing is highlighting exactly how unprofessional they all are.
 
TheReligion said:
Absolutely agree.

Considering they are a professional body of match officials one this audio keeps doing is highlighting exactly how unprofessional they all are.
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I find it a bit weird that they haven't clamped down on the "mate" stuff.

They're well aware that the audio might be released to the media, so you'd think they'd have clear instructions to keep it as professional as possible and avoid all the mate and daft nicknames.
 
MF1138 said:
It's laughable that they're not only going out of their way to protect the referee's decision but even the Assistant's opinion has to be protected.
Honestly I don't know why the referees can't ask for advice from VAR when when they are unsure or haven't seen an incident properly.

Ideally for me in an incident like this the linesman should advise the referee calmly that he thinks the tackle should be reviewed, and the referee should ask for VARs imput. VAR should then decide whether they think it's A)Red card. B)Not a red card. C)Subjective enough that the Ref should be sent to the monitor.
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I don't even think it should be VAR input. I don't understand why the ref can't request he watches it again and go over to the monitor. I'm all for the referee making more decisions. I don't like this new style of passive refereeing and waiting for VAR to mop up.

The linesman should say he feels it's a red card, the ref should then go and review the incident.
 
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